Pirate Ship Bed Material Selection?

[pkirby]

Hey guys,
Thanks to everyone on the forums, I've learned countless information while reading through the forums. I think I've finally figured out how to use my recently acquire PRT 48x96. Also, thanks to Gary and Bill for the Shopbot Camp last week, I learned a lot there as well.

So I need help in selecting material for a pirate ship headboard I'm about to start producing. I have a small business out of my garage in which I build children's playhouses. I've had some request for themed beds, so this is my first attempt at making furniture:confused:. I'm keeping my first one simple by limiting it to just the headboard instead of making an entire bed.

Here are the product goals:
1)Retail price $199 for unfinished and $299 for finished (I would prefer not to finish them because I have limited room in my garage and I'm not very experienced with it)
2)Simple production technique (My main tools are the Shopbot, chop saw, and router table)
3)I would love to be able to take the cut parts off the cnc and place directly into boxes for shipping without having to do further processing/woodworking on the parts (But this might be wishful thinking).

The Problem:
1) If I use a birch plywood for the material, then I'll have unfinished edges that might look bad. I don't think edgebanding will work because of the tight curves(See close up pic). I've seen other furniture use solid wood for edge pieces but I don't see how that will work with my design. Is MDF my only option for cleaner edges or do you guys have any other ideas?
13354

13355

[myxpykalix]

hi paul,
you have some good ideas. if u look at these pics of this bed what u will see is a mix of plywood and mdf.

i think u are going to have to design your beds in such a way so as to use plywood for the structural integrity of the bed and use the mdf to cover the odd edges of your designs.

i could see how behind your headboad you could inset a piece of plywood to hold the frame and the mdf is a cover over the exposed plywood edges. soory i usually take your pics and show designs but am temporaly digitally impaired --fingers:eek:

if u want more detailed help email me and we can talk on the phone since typing is so hard for me now

[steve_g]

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/14/smallbusiness/toy_law_threatens_small_companies.smb/
After working on this for a granddaughter I certainly understand not wanting to paint the headboards! Do federal regulations on finishing of children's items cause you pause?

My headboard, made of MDF became so heavy I decided to make it a wall hanging instead. I felt I could mount it more securely...

Steve

[pkirby]

Jack,
Thanks for the comments. I'll do some experimenting later this weekend with the plywood frame. That castle bed you did looks pretty cool.

Steve,
I'm not very familiar with the federal regulations. I've heard of them, but I'm kind of playing ignorant at the moment until I start selling a lot of them. The picture you posted is similar to another design I've been working on over the past couple of weeks. Here's a pic of it:
13363

[feinddj]

Try Apple ply or Baltic birch, with no voids and nice grain you just have to get a clean cut.

D

[pkirby]

David,
I just tried using some 3/4" import Birch and I'm not very impressed with the results. For all of the details in the middle of the headboard, I used a 45 degree V bit from Centurion. I tried multiple rpms from 10,000 to 21,000 & climb and conventional cutting methods, and no matter what I still got some tearout and a lot of "fuzz" in the grooves. Is the Baltic Birch that different from import Birch?

[billp]

The more plys, the less fuzzies. You can get "3/4" birch anywhere from 5 to 13 ply ( more ply layers = more $$$). Thick filler layers create fuzzies...

[andyb]

Paul,
For the finishing see if you can find a cabinet shop close to you that can spray it for you. They should be able to do it for less than $100.

Which side of Atlanta are you on?

Andy B.

[beacon14]

There is a big difference between Baltic Birch and China Birch. One of the biggest is price, but it's another instance of "you get what you pay for". I stay away from imported plywood if at all possible.

You might see if it's still possible to find lumber-core plywood, but even there you'd have exposed end grain in the core on cross-cut areas.

[bleeth]

With a retail price of $199/299 I can't see any more labor going into fabrication then simply cutting the parts. A higher grade of plywood will give you a better edge then the "Birch ply" sold at the big box store which is an import with inferior core.
I would go with Apple Ply if you can get it in Atlanta. Depending on the final look when finished another option may be prefinished ply. Then just wipe stain to color the vector cuts and edges.
Dave's point about the differences in plywood quality is a major one. import Baltic ply which is generally chinese now is not nearly the same as domestic. Dixie in your area carries a domestic Birch ply with a poplar core that machines way better. You pay twice as much.

[pkirby]

Bill,
The plywood I'm trying has 11 layers. Maybe it's operator error(I'm definitely still learning). Here are some pics of the fuzzies and of the 1/4" V carve bit I'm using.
13371

13372

Based on my research (please correct me if I'm wrong) I should be aiming for a chipload of .004". So this is what I tried:
21,000 RPM x 3 flutes x .004 divide 60 = 4.2 IPS
13,000 RPm x 3 flutes x .004 divide 60 = 2.6 IPS
Both of these feedrates resulted in the above cut quality. I understand that I'm not using a very high grade plywood and that it will not machine as well, but all of the curved edge thru cuts came out nicely with my compression bit. Do you guys think I could get better cuts than the above picture or is that probably the best with the cheap birch?

Andy,
I'm on the west side of Atlanta near Hiram. I've thought about hiring a seperate company to do the finishing. I wonder if there are any shops in Atlanta that specialize in finishing only?

David,
I paid $27 a sheet for the 3/4" Import Birch. At that price, I figured it was worth a shot. Do you have any good recommendations for a plywood supplier in the Atlanta area? The best I've found so far is Cumberland Wood Products.

Dave,
I'll check out the birch ply with poplar core next week. The more I think about it the more I'm tempeted to just use MDF since it keeps the material costs down and machines well.

[steve_g]

Paul

Right now my cost for 13 ply 3/4" Russian (Baltic) birch is $46.00 for 5'X5' sheets. Your $27.00 price for 11 ply (likely Chinese) is sure a temptation! I have heard of others who have experienced a great deal of inconsistencies with the interior plys of Chinese materials, even hitting chunks of metal imbedded in them. Also I have gotten results similar to your image above when the top ply was not glued absolutely tight.

Has anyone ever heard of a down-cut V-bit? that would help this situation in my opinion.

Another consideration regarding the use of MDF... It is easily damaged, by you or your customer bumping the edges while loading/unloading, and if not stored flat will soon become warped making hold down difficult.

Steve

[beacon14]

Paul,

Hardwoods Inc is the granddaddy of Baltic Birch suppliers in the Atlanta area. There are several others that carry one or two thicknesses, usually in a lower grade (there are various grades of Baltic Birch ply, but the difference is usually in the quality of the face veneer - the lower grades will have "football" shaped patches on both faces, while the higher grades will be clear on one or both faces. The cores are typically pretty consistent.) Hardwoods Inc carries thicknesses from 1/4" (6mm) up to 3/4" (18mm) and they even have some sizes (1/2" and 3/4") in 4x8 sheets - although the cost per square foot is higher for the 4x8 sizes. They are even on your side of town in Mableton (near Smyrna right off I-285).

I'd be concerned with MDF about some of the more delicate details breaking off. There are some details on your design that are attached to the main body of the piece with fairly small connecting areas.

The best all-around paint-grade plywood I've found lately is Columbia Purebond, which you can get for $45/sheet from, of all places, Home Depot. It has a decent poplar core. Most of the other suppliers in this area have switched to a "western softwood" core, usually fir. Seems to be just about as strong but I just don't think it's as nice as the poplar core.

[pkirby]

Thanks David for the Baltic Birch supplier. I'll give them a call in the morning. Is it possible to get a clean v groove cut in the baltic birch that won't require sanding? As for the MDF concerns, here's my thinking:
1) Enlarge some of the smaller details to keep it from being so fragile
2) Add a osb frame to the back of the headboard to prevent warping as seen in the pic below. Do you guys think this would work to prevent warping or have a better idea?
13379

[myxpykalix]

paul,
i don't think u need to be concerned with warping on plywodd or mdf. the bed i made a yr or so ago with 3/4 ply and mdf shows no sign of warpage.

keep in mind u want to lay your headboards against the wall to minimize breakage of fragile joints and having that frame back there keeps you from letting the wall hold the fragile parts flat.

if u wanted to keep the frame i would at least attach a reinforcement at your weak points at the lights.

if u look at my castle bed again the brick wall was plywood and the castle top was mdf. i cut out the shape of the castle top with about 2 ft excess plywood at bottom.
i glued on the mdf castle top, at the top of plywood. i used excess plywoood at bottom to screw to the back of brick field so mdf castle top sat on top of plywood brick field.
hope that makes sense:D

[steve_g]

Paul

Some of my MDF warping concerns are based on what I have seen many book shelves do over time. I know that's an extreme example but I also have experienced smaller degrees of warping in some of my wall hangings when stored standing up leaning against a wall. The warping demonstrated by my "bamboo" is typical of what I'm talking about. I have never seen this happen in a item hung or used vertical and my concern is for cut pre-sold stock.

Steve

[myxpykalix]

after thinking about it a bit i ned to revise my previous answer. my plywood headboard has 4x4 pine columns attached which help keep the plywood straight.

i don't think they would warp too much without specially if they are in a relatively stable humidity controlled environment.

steve i think your warpage may be more due to the angle it is leaning:confused:

[andyb]

Paul,
I know a couple of guys that can paint the beds for you. Give me a call and I will give you a name or two.

Andy B.

[pkirby]

Thanks guys for all of the help. I'll post some pics once I get the final version done.