Minwax Polycrylic

[khaos]

I thought I would get all green and ****. So I got the water based polycrylic by minwax. I officially hate it now. Damn bubbles I have a nice synthetic brush the surface is sealed to avoid out gassing and its cleaned. There are always several bubbles left to sand out. Temp is around 71f humid is around 35%. I tried the breath trick to break them but I remain frustrated. Haven't broke out the propane torch yet. On the third coat now. Apparently there is a special brush for this stuff I saw in a you tube vid. GRRRR.

Has anyone used this stuff without making an unhappy face? Any tips or tricks. Should I just circular file this stuff?

My humble thanks in advance,

[CNYDWW]

The minwax isn't bad i've had a lot of success with it. My trick is not not wipe the brush on the can, it opens up the brush to air. Then use the brush slow and steady, don't paint it on. I've actually gotten better results from the bullseye brand ultimate water based urethane. It's also cheaper and thicker. You might have better luck with the learning curve with that.

Best of luck
Randy

[ssflyer]

I've had great luck with Varathane Spar Urethane water based finishes. Lays out nicely when brushed on - looks sprayed.

[khaos]

@Randy Not wiping the brush was a big help!! I had great luck using the paint stirrer rather than the brush :rolleyes: ... I do use minwax stains all the time. I love their mahogany which is used by name to NOT use the poly on I based the decision to try this product on that experience.

@ssflyer I may try the SPAR if thats not a better match for me pretty sure that I will be going back to regular non water based finishes and never looking back after this project. They are a pretty big hassle.

Thanks all.

[khaos]

OK, so now there are no bubbles, yay, but the surface is not smooth. After a fine sanding how can I wake the shine back up without starting this whole episode over?

[MogulTx]

You may be able to use a little 0000 fine steel wool to smooth out the finish, rather than sanding. That would allow you to not remove the entirety of the finish... You can also wax it after with a paste wax and bring it back to a full sheen. ( If it has enough appropriate finish on it by now)...

[hh_woodworking]

use from brushes had better luck with them

[bleeth]

Depending on how fine a sandpaper you used you can bring it up with finer sandpaper in steps.
EG: If you sanded with 400 dry go to 400 wet; 800 wet; 1000 wet; and then something like 3-m Finesse It which is a super fine polishing compound you can buff with a polisher.
You can also go through these steps pretty quickly with Abralon pads on a DA. (Foam backed fine grit sanding pads).
If you go for an additional top-coat (and on a small sign I would!!):
Ed's hint about foam brushes may work but the main thing is that different types of varnish take a different touch and need to be learned. Some are tougher to apply than others. Cheap throwaway bristle brushes will never result in a good varnish finish. Working the material without over brushing is a big key in varnish work also. Over brushing will leave more stroke marks as the material is starting to set up and no longer has the chance to flatten out on it's own.

[michael_schwartz]

The rule of thumb I have learned with wood finishing is that 90% of the products available at hardware/paint stores deliver sub par results. They are designed to please homeowners, the painting trades, and your average handyman. A vastly different market to say the least.

Of course there are some exceptions to this, but this certainly holds true with waterborne clear coats. All of the reviews I have seen such as those from FWW, and my own personal experience back this up. This includes the aforementioned minwax product amongst others. There are products that are far superior.

Waterborne clears are very sensitive to your choice of brush. As others have suggested a foam brush is a start and readily available. A high quality synthetic golden takalon brush is also a good choice. Just about any off the shelf brush from a paint, or hardware store is going to deliver way too thick of a coat, amongst other problems.

http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/Brushes.htm

I personally have had good results with WB products from Target Coatings, and General finishes. They are the easiest to obtain. I mainly spray but have had good luck applying with a brush, and in some cases even a rag on occasion. For non spray applications I would start with either target EM2000, or any of the general products.

If you take a look around the Woodweb finsihing forum people are also using wb coatings such as M.L Campbell, Aqualente, ICA, Fuhur, Valspar Zenith, amongst others.

[bleeth]

Note that Joe is a hobbyist and his access to some of the more commercial finishes and systems is limited.
At this point I would like to point out that Joe acknowledging (however begrudgingly) that "going green" is a positive thing is a great step in the right direction! Of course, just as living with the results of NOT going green isn't easy, learning the changes to methods and systems in order to get satisfactory results from more ecologically balanced products takes work.

[khaos]

So I got an aerosol can of the poly hoping that it would be really thin and I could sand the finish back to smooth and lay a thin layer to remove the sanding haze. That didn't go so well temps dropped to high 50s I thought that would increase flow time. 30 minutes later the finish needs light sanding which will renew the haze ... :confused: It feels like this finish has to be polished after application. Cant use steel wool per the instructions... What to do what to do ...
The results I am getting are quite poor. :mad:

I have heard great things about the M.L Campbell brand. I wanted to get away from the ambering on the non waterbased finishes. Am I just being stubborn about making this finish work?

[carlcnc]

JOe
you might go browse the finishing forum at the "Woodweb"
lots of pros there like Target Coatings, ML Campbell and
another one that escapes me
you can browse without joining

Carl

[bleeth]

Joe: If you are looking for a dead flat mirror finish (like automotive) this is always achieved by final blocking and polishing.

[khaos]

Joe: If you are looking for a dead flat mirror finish (like automotive) this is always achieved by final blocking and polishing.

I was thinking that was the case but now I know for sure. :) What compound should I use to do the polishing?

[bleeth]

Run through the wet paper stages as outlined before and make sure you use a sanding block if you do it by hand. You can use Abralon pads on a DA sander. You will need to end up at a pretty high grit (from 1000 to 2000). Don't skip the stages before. Keep wiping off the sanding residue with a clean wet rag as you go or you will be putting scratches back into it. Then use a fine cutting compound like 3-m finesse it or Maguirres on a low speed buffer. Make sure your finish is completely cured before you start. It will look worse before it starts to look better.
Gloss finishes are a pain. Finishers will charge several more dollars per square foot due to the increased labor.
The supplies will come from a commercial finishes supplier and/or automotive paint store. Marine suppliers carry it as well. It's pretty much the same as bringing up gel-coat or Awl-Grip (since you are a boater). I have used semi-gloss as a build up, blocked it out, and then used gloss as top only so the labor was less.

[michael_schwartz]

Target can be purchased direct online via mail order. General can be ordered from a couple of the major woodworking sites. I am not sure about general but Target is freeze thaw stable through a couple of cycles if you have to order it during cold weather. Both companies sell most of their product line in quart sizes.

The others as David mentioned are generally sold by commercial vendors. Some may be hard to find or non existent in your area which is actually the case for a couple of products I want to try.

There are also some oil products out there that are "greener" than what you might be accustomed to. Just make sure to dispose of rags safely.

http://www.sutherlandwelles.com/
http://www.triedandtruewoodfinish.com/
http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html

[bleeth]

Hey Michael:
I like the milk paint. I did an Oak cab several years ago (see attached) and was thinking of doing something similar for the house and that may make a better finish than the original glazed lacquer. Have you used their paints and/or the crackle base?
Joe lives near Norfolk-suppliers should be pretty easy for him.

[khaos]

OK here are the final results. I had allowed two days cure time in the house @ about 73°f. 600 then 1000 to get the desired build and the glass smooth. :) sands great. Now for the haze removal super fine polish and soft pad ready to go. Made sure the pad was moist before adding polish to the work about polish gently 45 seconds then wipe the polish with our lint free. I noticed a slight milkiness to the finish... Next 30-40 seconds of polishing wipe ... :mad: the surface of the finish is re-activated. So after all of these hours wasted I have discerned exactly how to use the product:
Don safety glasses while pondering the time and money invested
Hold product firmly in two hands (do not shake this causes bubbles)
walk to the waste bin and raise lid with elbow
drop the product into the bin without a second thought.
Grab your H. Behlen top coat lacquer (wipe on or spray)
The first image is the poly, second image is a 2 minute sanding job and a 5 second spray of H. Behlen top coat lacquer no 25 minutes old no polishing yet. the third is a fine sanding job with another inlay I wanted to show off the last image is of course my hero lacquer.

HTH,

[bleeth]

I'm glad your Behlen didn't start to eat the Minwax!! At times the only way to know if one product is compatable with another is trial and error. What polish didn't work with the Minwax poly?

[khaos]

I'm glad your Behlen didn't start to eat the Minwax!! At times the only way to know if one product is compatable with another is trial and error. What polish didn't work with the Minwax poly?

Oh, I didn't lay down over the poly! I'm sure it would have bubbled, peeled and summoned a lesser demon <sarcasm> I will have to sand it all off. It couldn't handle water so i expect lacquer would totally destroy it. Hmm, could be fun ... nah, no time. Its a demo piece so if theres some residual in the inlay seems it should be OK.

The polish was water based CCB prescription optical grade. You don't really feel the grit so much as notice that the friction is a little higher than water.

ps we're up late ... :cool:

[bleeth]

Yeah-one of those nights.

That's the stuff they use for scratch removal in eyeglasses?

A couple of furniture plants I know prefer waterbased product for highbuild high gloss work but I'm sure it is not "Off the shelf" product. The final result can't be differentiated from styrene based.

[khaos]

Someone recomended the 3M polishes. I think that I will venture back down the waterbased finishes but I will look into some pre-cat types of pro finish and a HVLP system like the Apollo 1050VR.

its about a $1500 system though... But I could use it for my marine needs as well...

[kevin]

Joe I'm not sure how large of piece your trying to do .

I have two pictures of examples I use to do aircrafts part with 12 clearcoats, polished with 3m system using polyester. That was 10 years ago very difficult and time consuming

The second picture I used water based with 6 clearcoats sand paper bought at local hardware 200 400 800 1200 2000 then buff with rubing compon
SAME RESULT WITH FRACTION OF THE MONEY

[michael_schwartz]

That is some nice work Kevin.

I use the Menzerna intensive polishes. You can use them by hand, or with an inexpensive slow speed automotive buffer. The menzerna polishes work well with target products. Certain buffing compounds may be too harsh and cause compatibility issues with WB's.

Haze in a waterborne coating is generally caused by moisture trapped in the film. Generally the way to fix this is to scuff sand and let the film dry for a few days before re-coating. This is often caused by applying too many coats in a short window, or by applying coats that are too thick. In some cases a slight residual haze may go away after a couple of weeks or months.

Another trick to avoid bubbles with waterborne finishes is to stir and mix gently. This is actually quite important, but don't shake the can.

It is generally ok to sand between coats when the finish sands into a fine powder. If it clumps up on or loads the sandpaper its too soon.

I generally clean sanding dust off with a vacuum and follow up by wiping the surface with a mix of 50/50 denatured alcohol and water. Don't use tack cloths with waterborne finishes. There is supposedly are some made that are compatible, but I don't think they are necessary.

Unless recommended otherwise by a manufacturer I would wait at least a week before wet sanding, buffing, or polishing a WB coating. Doing so too soon can cause a multitude of problems, one of them being haze.

It has been about 10 years since I used Minwax Polycyrlic. Perhaps they have re-formulated it since but from what I recall I finished a desk with it and it was never dried particularly hard at all, in that you could leave an indentation with a fingernail. It also eventually reacted with the acids from my hands and would turn into a black gummy residue in spots that would slowly peel off. There are far superior alternatives.

The aerosol spray lacquer is a good choice for small projects. Allot of guitar builders go that route, so you may want to look into some of the techniques they are using.

[michael_schwartz]

Hey Michael:
I like the milk paint. I did an Oak cab several years ago (see attached) and was thinking of doing something similar for the house and that may make a better finish than the original glazed lacquer. Have you used their paints and/or the crackle base?
Joe lives near Norfolk-suppliers should be pretty easy for him.


I use their pure tongue oil frequently for small projects. I haven not used the paint yet, but I am looking for an excuse. I have seen the paint in person and it looks quite nice. I haven't seen the crackle base. Milk paints will generally wear off in time on surfaces exposed to wear but this often results in an "antique look" I have seen some home made milk paints used in high traffic areas that didn't work out well because of this.

[kevin]

Its nice to hear postive about water based clear

There is still people who beleve water based will warp doors wifes tale

Target coating is an amzing product espically just starting out very easy to work with

[khaos]

Yeah-one of those nights.

That's the stuff they use for scratch removal in eyeglasses?


Yes it is. Sorry I just realized I didn't answer this.