Unwrapping a 3d model to cut with aspire.

[jseiler]

I'm looking for a way to "unwrap" a 3d model and lay it flat so that aspire can be used to edit and cut. Is there a good way to do this?

[Brady Watson]

You can pay someone with ArtCAM to do it for you. I am not familiar with any other package that will allow you to unwrap a 3D file.

-B

[rb99]

Can someone explain this unwrapping 3d model process? What is the difference between a 3d model and a relief file?

Thanks,

RB

[Brady Watson]

Richard,
This is a full 360° 3D model:


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This is the exact same 3D model unwrapped in ArtCAM in 'flattened relief' form:


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Unwrapping full 3D models can be tricky depending on the model and overall shape. Editing a full 3D model using sculpting-type tools is even more of a challenge. As you can see from the example above, editing the relief is not straight forward. Things get increasingly complex when you start talking about 'Full 3D' or rotary type work.

I personally use the ClayTools System for full rotary-type reliefs. This allows me to edit laser scanned rotary files and sculpt them all the way around, even with difficult or complex shapes. The price of the system isn't cheap, but it lets you actually 'feel' the relief on the screen.

If you have an indexer and a SB probe, then you can have the indexer unwrap the rotary relief for you. I have described exactly how to do this at least once before, so use Google to search the forum regarding this.

John,
If you post a pic of the model you want to unwrap, I can make suggestions. Or, just send me the file and I'll see what I can do.

-B

[khalid]

Brady..I am sorry to say you didn't made the Flattening or unwrapping of above 3D model correctly... Unwrapping of 3D Model is a science.... Here is some discussion on Artcam Forum that will give you some insight How to unwrap 3D Model in ArtCam... You can UNWRAP 3D Model in Studio Max too...

http://forum.artcam.com/viewtopic.php?t=5755&start=0

[Brady Watson]

Actually Khalid...It is correct. I've been using Pro since version 5 and have unwrapped (and re-wrapped into STL) for many of my customers. The link that you posted does not illustrate the proper way to unwrap a 3D model in Pro, so I can see how you might have gotten confused. It seems strange that you deleted most of your posts in that thread? Why?

Here's how I do it - Model MUST be in the absolute center of the model:


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Model is Unwrapped in the Y - Which REALLY means that Y the centerline of a cylinder that will be unwrapped in the X.

Here is the Unwrapped model:

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Wrap X is selected.

If 'Wrap Y' was selected, the model would just look like a regular ring, like this:

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Here are BOTH the unwrapped and wrapped models.

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-B

[Brady Watson]

Here are a few shots of 'flat reliefs' that have been converted to rotary...quick & dirty. 'Egg Shape' was created with a single rail sweep of a bezier curve & then texture added to it. Pretty basic stuff.


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-B

[khalid]

Brady.. Thanks for information...If you just download the PDF attachment in my Artcam forum thread (Link mentioned in my above post), you will find how i did it with the help of fellows...

Can you tell how you will make tool path..and I afraid the model you unwrapped in the second last post, will not get the actual results (3D model) after machining..

[khalid]

2nd and 4th Picture in your Post No.2727 is not unwrapped as it should be...
Are you happy with that?

[khalid]

IT will be a nice discussion with you Brady... May be I am wrong..I am not a perfect
..But I machined various models on CNC by using the same technique i learned in Artcam Pro 2008...

May be i am doing some wrong and for this i will be gratfull to you if you help me...

P.S: I am writing the words, that may give you impression of taunting...but its not true, really i want to learn unwraping from you and i request you to give more insight in this topic including the toolpath generation and setting procedure of stock in the indexer and where to put tool=0 position and how to calculate the relief height in circular stock....... I will also be happy if you can post the Gcode for the Roped column here (if u can ) so that i take it into NCPLOT for learning purpose...

[Brady Watson]

Khalid,
No problem. I say whatever works for you is the best method. I have many customers to take my unwrapped 3D and rotary reliefs that have been created via 4th axis laser scans and cut them on various brand machines. I don't have the time to give a tutorial on how to do what you are asking right now, but there will be a video available for purchase that walks a customer through the entire process of going from 3D model to finished part on an indexer/4th axis.

Keep in mind that the above examples were done very quickly to illustrate basic concepts. They were not displayed with the intention of perfect machining.

Now I have to get back to work before I get beaten!


-B

[khalid]

LOLZZZ...Okay Brady u saved your skin;)

[Brady Watson]

Khalid,
Ask around...I've been doin' this stuff for a while - no need for me to save any skin


Here's a couple of shots from ArtCAM's own Rotary Machining Manual, which you should have no problem obtaining from your ArtCAM reseller. You can also pull it down from the net if you are an ArtCAM Advantage member.

The thing that most people screw up is not correctly setting the center of the model to be the center pixel. This is the problem that I have with your posted ArtCAM forum link. The point of origin MUST be in the center of the model if your intention is to correctly unwrap the model.


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You'll notice, that the distortions shown in the manual example below, aren't too far off what I showed above. This is a ball & claw foot being unwrapped in Pro:


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As I said earlier in this thread, things do not always unwrap in the way you expect them do. This makes editing them difficult depending on the shape - particularly files that are not symmetrical. Some complex shapes are very difficult to unwrap accurately, and in some cases will not unwrap in ArtCAM to your satisfaction.

-B

[ron_varela]

The reason it did not unwrap correctly is the page was not setup to allow the width of the model to expand; you can not go by the Rotary Machining Manual because it has not been updated in years, times change and so do the methods, if you are not happy with the results you can always wrap a file around a cylinder and get the same results.
I gave a training class in San Marcos a few years ago and discussed the ways you can do this.
Back to playing with the grandkids

[Brady Watson]

Ron,
I'm all about learning new things. Please post pics/explanation of the new methods that you mention. It would be good if you can show examples of how you can wrap a file around a cylinder and have it result in the same geometry as unwrapping a full 3D rotary file. The ball & claw foot example would be perfect, since it accompanied the Rotary Machining Manual in the 2006 User Group materials. What version of Pro are you using?

-B

[khalid]

You just read through my question first post in the Artcam Forum and concluded that what i was/am doing wrong by simply not putting the model in the center...But if u have a time and read through the complete discussion you will come to know that I have summarized the Procedure in the 3rd PDF last page..



P.S: Download the Thread_cancelleted.Pdf from my First Post in Artcam Forum..and read the last page of the 3rd PDF;)

And I think what i have summarized is the best concize tutorial for NewBies for unwrapping 3D object...

[khalid]

So if Here are the snapshots for unwraping procedure. you have no time to write a tutorial, I am going to write it for all...May be in the next time when i make some indexing work, i will share the video.
Creating the model in 'INCHES' is your choice but it saved me Crashing my Artcam... Also my 4th axis is not a True 4th axis as i declared in STEP IIV in the attached procedure.


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[Brady Watson]

I made a few adjustments & viola:


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Thanks for the 'push' Kahlid
This looks a bit more like it.

-B

[khalid]

Wow...Now thats a true representation;).. Now The harder part is Toolpath Generation , selection of right Post Processor, and setting the Stock on the indexer...This may be simple for shopbot users.... But It took a lot of time of mine to understand the science and use it as an art to produce the 3D part on indexer


Thanks for posting the pictures...

[ron_varela]

Brady I too am very busy helping the thousands of members on my server and it would not be a good idea for me to post the pictures or the video of the method since you are making a training video for sale, if you own Artcam and pay the 1,200.00 maintenance fee every year then you might want to ask Artcam how it is done or ask in the Artcam forum or your reseller, or see if it is on the advantage site. If you do not find it there then that means no one wishes to share it or post it or does not know how to do it.
If you have the slicer that’s all you need.
When Gene Marshal asked me about indexing and wrapping models I was glad to explain what I knew because he was a member and a good friend and he was the only one that had any interest on indexing. It has been confirmed that the shopbot indexer has very little or poor documentation on how to use it and to do 3d wrapping and this is why he asked and joined my server, his work speaks for itself and he will be missed.
As for what version of Artcam do I use depends on whose shop I am in at the time, I deal with over a dozen company’s who call me and ask for help, the book is not all that great and has not been updated in years and the resellers all same the same thing Take more training so that is where I come in to save them a few bucks, I have been playing with Artcam since version 4 until someone upgrades and then play with that and in time you become good at it, I guess no one wants to take the 2 plus years to learn it and with 10 years under my belt and I am a quick answer to there questions, all my time learning it was in there shops and many shops have there dongle locked up because of the cost to replace it if stolen or is they loose it taking it home with them, Artcam should think about having there software dongle free.
I had a shopbot indexer that I got cheap and hooked it up and decided after a few cuts that my duplicator was faster for my needs and sold the indexer for a go-cart that will get plenty of use with the grandkids and when they get older I will teach them all about cnc and shopbot.

[khalid]

Brady.. I learn one thing in 29 years.. If u teach one word to other you will learn 10 words from other... My helping is not for money...and i don't like those who sells knowledge..If selling the knowledge was allowed, then the Holy Prophet JESUS would have too much of money by selling his bible...

So don't worry and keep asking from others... I don't need to sell my knowledge for few bucks...As the time passing by,My oldness gives me more courage to spread the knowledge for free...

I will make a short video (depends on the time) explaining tit bits of 4th axis programming.... I believe Live for Others..

Thanks for reading
Regards

[ron_varela]

John you can send me the file and I will get it unwrapped for you but you will need to get with James Booth about if it will work in aspire.
Unwrapping is free

Khalid are you going to teach us what you learned how to do on the Artcam Forum?
Upload some of the movies I made for you or just link them to the movies on the Artcam forum where some of my movies have been posted by others.
If you are going to make movies on indexing make sure you cut the files first on a shopbot so we know the method will work and use the shopbot x or y post possessor because just about every body here don’t use the model master possessor or Mach 3. if it is a g-code then it might be possible the shopbot converter might possess it correctly? No telling till someone tries it and cuts it.
I think someone from Aspire should have answered this post since it has to do with Aspire and it was a good question since it is new software, Time to feed the Grandkids

[cmagro]

Can one of you guys please post some pictures of actual parts made from unwrapping (or wrapping) your models or drawings. Preferably non-symmetrical stuff like the ball and claw.

I have much info to share but it is not in keeping with what I'm seeing here (methods and software). I don't want to start posting stuff until I see more of where you guys are headed.

Christian

[khalid]

Ahhhhh..RON..You challenged my Limitations...If I have a shopbot i could do it much earlier for all shopbotters....I don't think ASPIRE having a postprocessor for indexer work


For me THE SKY IS LIMIT ;)

[ron_varela]

Khalid I know you can do it I just wanted to point out that we use a different format then g-code and I am not sure if the converter will do it right, was just giving you the heads up so not to waste your time.

Christian I would be happy to post some pictures for you on the possess, as soon as my daughter gets home I will run over to San Marcos and get access to Artcam and will pop out some screen shots for you, I might even write up a simple way of doing it, I would post the movie on how it is all done but the file is 285 big.

[myxpykalix]

If someone has a file they want to have test cut you can send me the cut file or whatever and I would volunteer to try to cut it. Maybe Brady you could post this spiral file in your example since it looks like it is made?

One of my questions is though, I use Millwizard, and I see a easier method of cutting something like this would be just a 4 sided carving approach, I guess assuming you already had a round model. Brady's spiral model seems to be more symetrical but I don't see what difference a nonsymetrical model would make in cutting, unless Christian your reference was in regard to seeing how the ends met up with each other to see how a nonsymetrical object wrapped up?
Again if someone wants a testfile cut let me know.

[khalid]

Jack Jervis
Thanks for volunteering for cutting 3D Model... But heeey I don't want to damage your machine ;)... I agree that my approach of indexing is only for Poor DIYers using lowcost controlling softwares, struggling of their best to compete the giants
...It may partially help the shop botters ;)

I am sorry i can't add much in this topic to the Shop bottors community because of some restrictions and very Limited resources....., i just involves here to facilitate 'Thread Starter' and Brady... and I hope some one learn something from here (including me)..

Have a nice day to all
Regards

[jseiler]

Thanks for the offer Ron, and I might take you up on it, but at some point, I have to figure out the process enough so I can do it myself. I have an idea for doing this a number of times as "one-offs". I expect most of the geometry to be sweeping curves, not anything that's not well behaved.

With "spindles" that are rotationally symetrical, I can create what I need with two rail sweeps, etc using the tools aspire has directly. Its when things aren't symetrical that I need to figure out a way to "flatten" a 3d model so I can add raised text onto it or other "simple" transformations.

I wonder if blender can be coerced into cylindrical unwrapping like Brady's jan 16 correctional post.

[jseiler]

I don't believe I need a special post processor for rotary. I'm going to raster down the length or the spindle and increment the rotary 1 click. I'll just scale the outside and model thickness so that the rotary axis thinks its moving the gantry. Rotary post shouldn't be an issue, right?

[khalid]

John.. You are partially true



You will always end up with cylindrical object having some 3D work on circumference in Aspire...

You can never produce Tappered, Irregular shape Like Statue of liberty,Ball & Claw foot shown above, egg etc using Aspire...

My 02 priceless cents..

P.S: I may be wrong but the probability is 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999
9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
9999%

[jseiler]

I would think ball and claw feet and the egg would be well within the ability of this technique, especially if one uses the proper roughing pass(es).

Khalid, why don't you think it will work?

[khalid]

John.... I will think again on it... If u make the model inside Aspire then it will be impossible I think..but if u unwrap the model with other software and generated the toolpath for it inside the Aspire then i think it is doable.....

The best place for asking this question is in Vectric Forum..I think they know very well than me.. Don't want to misguide you...

[cmagro]

These previous posts kinda answer my request to having someone post an actual object made from wrapping or unwrapping....

What I'm trying find out is WHY the need for wrapping and unwrapping and for what kind of objects (in a practical world). So in other words...someone give me an idea on a specific object they would want to create that they feel wrapping is to be used so I can put in my two cents.

Christian

[ron_varela]

Christian good luck getting one, as you see this topic is way off its intended question and everyone is probably looking somewhere else for the answer.
If I still had a indexer I would cut and post things of interest but in all fairness it would be the things I made and sure no one else would want to cut the same thing.
Everyone who has an indexer are in the learning curve of it for the last few months and there are a hand full of people that have the concept of how it works and others that are new to indexing and with very little knowledge, indexing is not an necessity to a shopbotter but an extension to there shopbot.
A few people here have cut wrapping and text on a cylinder and it stops there, my guess no one has the right tools to do the job others are doing such as the software to do it, when you talk about taking a file to unwrap an object you are talking about $7k and up and many who read that move on to more simple things they can afford.
I made a new topic so there is no confusion

[cmagro]

Ron,

John's comment:

I don't believe I need a special post processor for rotary. I'm going to raster down the length or the spindle and increment the rotary 1 click.

John is the closest one here that I think has a practical "grip" on this topic (if I'm correct in understand what sort of objects are to be made with the indexer). The reason I'm wondering about this is because I'm finalizing a big project in about 2-3 weeks (that's right...I actually still have work!!). After this project I plan to take a couple of weeks off (most likely will HAVE to) and am finalizing the design of a few newels and balusters that I will be cutting....two of which have carvings. I have added a ball and claw leg to that list. I just wanted to get a feel of what the desired end product is on this topic so I can document my stuff and post something to help out with the understanding of the indexer from a different perspective.

Christian

[ron_varela]

Well I am retired and I have a full time job playing with my grandkids so I will back away from helping on indexing since I do not own one anymore and leave the questions and answers to the more qualified users, well off to the park and then to the zoo

[Brady Watson]

Christian,
Whether a file needs to be unwrapped or not is entirely dependent upon the type of file. Things like Barley twists, rope turnings and things like that are regular 2D toolpaths. Newel posts and the like can be created with a combination of 2D (turned profile) and 3D 3-axis moves if you wanted to engrave a relief into the surface of one of the flat sides. Unwrapping comes into play when you have full 3D relief-type models that are non-symmetrical and would benefit from incremental rotary machining. It doesn't sound to me like your project requires anything other than simple 90°/4-sided indexing and 2D & 3D toolpaths.

The best way to learn is to get out there and play. Theories and bellybuttons are a plenty...and until you do it yourself, you won't know what you really require.

-B

[jseiler]

So I guess there no inexpensive solutions to unwrapping for incremental rotary machining?

cnc_toolkit might work if one had gmax or 3dsmax.

Can blender be coerced into unwrapping?

[khalid]

Working with cnc_toolkit is not that easy...But its free aith the expense of time..and time is money;)

[jseiler]

Feasibility study:

I tried meshlab and it limits to 100 slices, makes the slices into svg files and loses their center. I was thinking that I could slice up an stl, then use the profile generated as indexer tool path. only allowing 100 slices hurts a bit.

Next, if one could get slices with center point perserved, it would be relatively easy to remap those points from cylindrical to flat relief model. It could be done crudly by outputting a point cloud (convert with accutrans) or better as a new stl. This could be editted in aspire. If only I had a better slicer.

I might have better luck if I could get the svgs that meshlab exports to convert to something besides eps. inkscape won't convert it (makes zero byte files). Added plugins for enhanced dxf. didn't work. dxf might preserve the center of the slices. Dunno.

Maybe vectric will add some tools for this in aspire.


All of this because there isn't an open source cylindrical unwrapper.

[khalid]

Gmax is free and cnc_toolkit is also free.. I read through the Benny Tutorial on CNC_Toolkit, but i was lost in it...

[jseiler]

stlworks slices into aligned dxfs. Hmmm.

[jr_bourget]

Ok I don’t think I’m doing this right. I bring the STL model in artcam.
I set my model at the center of the file. X=0 Y=0 and Z-1.35
Then I unwrap in the Y axis. In the diameter field for the diameter to unwrap I put the part
diameter (2.7). The result is a flat part. Like, flat nothing on it. It seamed it unwrap it completely flat. I put a smaller diameter in the diameter field to unwrap the part and the part unwraps properly but it is too small on the diameter.

Part size to unwrap 2.7 x 2.7 x 5.5 lg. I set my material at y=5.5 and x=8.4823

What I’m I doing wrong???

[velleca55]

Please don't care about my bad English ...

But the problem with unwrapping a 3D file is a limitation on the software way ... even unwrapping a flatted work ...

The shortcut is a indexed strategies with 90 degrees or maybe 45 degrees at time ... but is sufficient to make some models or joke to learn ... if is a professional input, the time consuming is so much in this way ...

I'll try to explain the limitations on fourth axis strategies for the hobbyist way, and half professionals ...

If we take an indexer, the movements it can done is, rotary continuous, or indexed ...

If the program you use is ArtCAM or VisualMILL to make your machining file, is only that two ways to move a rotary axis ... and ALWAYS ONLY move three axis ... always ...

That give a big limitation over the physical configuration of the 3D model you can machining on a 4° axis, or rotary axis ...

If you have a rotary stand alone motor, you use a postprocessor ... and if you have a three axis, and unplug one axis to put the rotary, then use another postprocessor, BUT in the same way you have ONLY THREE AXIS working always ... the NAME "fourth axis" is a wrong way to nominated the process ... the correct was "THREE AXIS, WITH ONE ROTARY" ... even if you have a fourth MOTOR ...

That is a big limitation ... due the movements you can do, only geometrical or better displaced geometries over the center of a cylinder can be machined on that configurations ...

I'll try to put some examples of the limits you can find in that setup ... with time, be patient ...

In other way, if your system CNC is a professional one, the CAM package can output a INTERPOLATED file, but at this point you have to own either the controller that supports a interpolated movements of the FOUR AXIS, and not only three like the hobbyist and neo professional one, that only interpolated two and positioning the third axis ...

With a CAM that generate the code with interpolation, and a controller that support it, we can talk about a REALLY FOURTH AXIS MACHINING THING ...

Programs like PoweMILL, MasterCAM, CATIA, ProE and others can do it ... but are specialists softwares with a mechanical/technical approach ... and cost ... for professional CNC machines, with their cost too ...

And some jewelry packages ...

A Mach router, a mill, or even a engrave machine, can only works interpolating the axis if the CAM and controllers support it, if not we only can works with a simple THREE AXIS WITH ONE ROTARY ...

I have a fourth axis machine, with four motors ... and I'm only can do continuous rotary, or indexed works ...

In much of the parts is already a good way ... many good works can do with that setup, but knowing the limits is better to explore the maximum in that setup ...

I did try to machining a flat model and understand the limit on the three axis - one rotary ... but the same I can do so many works on it ...

Like I say first, if you understand the limit, you can work into it limit ... and for special things, can indexed or slice, or other ways to surround that limit ...

One of the limits is the center of the cylinder ... the cuter never pass that line ... and other one is the incidence angle with the cutter touch the model ...

Perhaps with the photo the concept are better understanding ...

As you can see the retro of the model cannot be machined due the limit of the center of the cylinder (until if is near zero); and due the fact the cutter passes have a fixed angle ...

.
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