Need Advice

[Braden]

I am totally new here and to the cnc world so please excuse any dumb questions I may ask!

I have a laser engraving and sandblasting business right now, and I am considering adding a second laser or going the route of a cnc and woodworking equipment to produce my own blanks in house(currently outsource 25-30k/yr).

I was wondering if anyone here has both machines and how well they compliment eachother, and if I could get some help in understanding which machine would be best for me. Also, at my shop I only have single phase power (could get a converter I learned), and I am trying to stay under 15k and from my research I would also like to be able to use Aspire with the machine. I am also not opposed to buying a used machine, but my only concern is the age and software working properly and not buying a lemon with no warranty.

In the end I will want to be able to mass produce wooden award blanks, plaques, etc to be lasered and if there are enough, sold to other laser owners.

In addition to the cnc I was also looking at a dual drum sander (JET model 22-44 PRO-3), rather large band saw(grizzly g0566b), table saw, to be assesed dust collection unit/units, and setting up a functional spray booth. If I have missed any other must haves please fill me in so I can add it to my list.

Any help or advice would be greatly apprecited!

Thank you

[steve_g]

General thoughts...

Welcome!
Out sourcing 25-30K/yr wow... you'll pay for a nice bot in no time!
I have a bot, a friend has the laser... we are still investigating the joint project options.
Used machines... no lemon bots, some lemon operators! The forum and ShopBot Tech support would welcome you...
future purchase of a table saw... Get a SawStop. I and several other forum members wish we had...

Steve

[michael_schwartz]

I have the grizzly 14" extreme series bandsaw with riser block and its a lot of saw for the money but if I could do it over I would have bought a higher quality saw. They are a good value if you use them occasionally, but I am not too impressed with it. Grizzly does have very good customer service, and they made it easy to return another machine I had bought from them recently that had numerous problems.

If you go with a drum sander buy used. I sold my 26" wood master for $500.00, and they seem to go for about $350-600 on my local craigslist. They are kind of like radial arm saws in that they are not very popular anymore so there are a lot out there on the market.

You may also be able to find a good deal on a wide belt sander, if you have 3 phase. They have been selling for as low as 3 grand lately with all the larger shops going under. Used commercial equipment is always cheap because people don't have 3 phase in their home shops.

Also I wouldn't rule out getting a couple of shapers if you want to run any edge profiles on your plaques. Its hard to beat the cut quality, and speed. At the very least plan on building a really solid router table. This can be done on the Bot, but it is often faster, and simpler just to run edge profiles with a handheld router, shaper, or router table.

[sneakers]

I have both a laser and a shopbot and yes they compliment each other very well. If the only thing you want to do with the bot is make blanks for lasering save your money. You cannot compete in that area. You cannot buy the material for what you are paying for the blanks. If you are looking for the ride of your life then by all means buy a shopbot. You are only limited by your imagination as to what you can make but if this a business you have to realize that it is not economically feasible to make everything. Somethings are better to buy than to make.

Good luck
Gary

[blackhawk]

I agree with Gary on the plaque blanks. You would have to setup a large scale, high volume production area to compete with their prices. When I make plaques myself, I have to buy the wood, plane it, match up the grain, rip it, run in the jointer, glue it, clamp it, sand it, and then finish it. My time isn't worth it versus buying. My only exception is large uncommon blanks like an 24 x 24. These I will do myself.

My bandsaw gets turned on about 5 times a year since I bought my Shopbot. I think the last time that I used it was to sharpen some tomato stakes.

[michael_schwartz]

At the prices I have seen I wouldn't have any problem making them just to have control over the quality. You get what you pay for.

I agree that more complicated items such as boxes cost too much to make, and those can usually be bought for less.

[Braden]

Thank you for the replies! Now I have even more questions.

What band saw would be a good one>? I was also looking into the Jet models as well, one being the 18qt-3.

As for the drum sander purchase, are the wide belt sanders better for the sanding and getting to a ready to be finished surface? Here is a link to what I am currently looking at http://www.southern-tool.com/store/performax_22-44-pro_sander.php#aWMH982201

Last one for now, since I have only single phase power for now, what bot would be good for producing the wooden blanks for laser engraving? Looking to use it to cut out the blanks and I am not really sure how the router/spindle hp affects the amount/type of work that can be done. Also, how thick of wood can they cut through while being efficient on time use?

Thanks again for all the help!

[gc3]

you should visit some shops in your area to see what traditional machinery they are using and how it works for them

[chiloquinruss]

I built one of the 30 inch StockRoom Supply sanders. I bought the kit, when I got the kit it has the drawings for building the box, I input those into Aspire and cut the box. It works really good. Russ

http://www.stockroomsupply.ca/shop/drum-sanders.html?SID=5852574abec05b83768370ec7ae0a8cc&cat=40

[danhamm]

Braden, got my first laser in 1998 and then my first shopbot in 1999
and they go hand in glove, made jewelry boxes and recipe boxes and a million other kinds of boxes. plaques for 3 levels of Gov. and name tags
for same.
Cut the plaque blanks with the cnc but do the edgea on a table router its faster than setting up the cnc..

we dont have a website anymore as facebook is easier and does all that a website does.. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Burning-Impressions/107304665958314

[michael_schwartz]

When I got the shopbot I ended up disconnecting my 26" woodmaster drum
sander, so I could split the 30 amp 240v circuit into two 20A 110v circuits.

Between the helical carbide head in my planer and jointer, and fesstool Rotex I found that I didn't really miss it. I finally broke down and sold it to get the space back. I had bought it used originally.

Drum sanders are really nice when you want to sand a lot of narrow stuff on edge, or for final thicknessing of veneer. I never trusted it for wide stuff. I have never found a need to level out face frames, or doors either. If I ever buy another drum sander It will be a small open end version for surfacing shop veneer, or sanding edges of long narrow parts. Eventually when I move up to a larger space, I plan to get a wide belt sander.

[Braden]

you should visit some shops in your area to see what traditional machinery they are using and how it works for them

That's kind of the problem and opportunity, there aren't to many shops around me that are trying to do what I am hoping to.

Most of the nearby engraving shops only use blanks mass produced in China and have nothing that seperates their business from the rest. For my business I love to design my own awards and build them in my shop. I have done cut and sandblasted stone, kiln fired glass awards that were also sandblasted, as well as hand scalloped glass pieces that were UV bonded to hand cut and notched flagstone bases.

I also have an account that needs 3-4k wooden awards a year, the pattern is simple straight cuts and then the tops are screwed to a base. If I could even just make these blanks in a reasonable time with the shopbot I would hope that I would be able to cover the investment, supplies, and help to run the extra machinery.

Gary-

You mentioned that having the shopbot to produce laserable blanks will still not allow me to be competitive with the other companies. Are you speaking of overseas companies or others that supply this industry? Also, if you don't mind could you tell me where the strengths of the shopbot would lie?

Thank you all for your advice

[CNYDWW]

To throw my two cents in. ShopBots are very efficient. You can run the largest machine on single phase power. The motors are actually DC. The biggest concerns when running off single phase power is the spindle and any vacuum hold down system. There are single phase spindles and a lot have used standard single phase vacuum motors for their vacuum hold down.

I would suggest, along with many others. Get the largest most accurate machine within you budget. You might want to look at the PRS or Buddy Alpha machines due to their closed loop stepper system. They are much more efficient as far as speed goes compared to Standard Models. A 48x48 Prs Alpha starts out at a reasonable price. Great thing about these machines, you can always get another set of legs and longer rails to increase it's size in the future. Another option is the Buddy. A BT48 was in my plans originally however I ended up with a 60x120 PRT due to budget issues. Honestly the machine i have now is too big for my shop. Buddys offer a different dynamic. You can limit the x travel depending on what you'll be cutting. Standard length is 24" and width is either 48" or 32". With the Powerstick and support options you can expand the length on X travel up to 10' I believe. Also keep in mind that since the buddy's gantry is static and the material moves along the Powerstick, you need more room when adding length. With that, the biggest con to the Buddy's pros is the table. Not fully supported outside the machine can cause issues with stability of the table surface if not properly done. You can cut full sheets of ply on a BT48 however it does have it's limitations.

Regards
Randy

[bleeth]

A drum sander is not even close to the class that a well made wide belt sander is however there are plenty of operations that do very well with a drum sander. Performax has a good reputation in that area. None of them are true production machines. They work for low to mid custom shops. A drum sander will give you a nice finish on just about any hardwoods. If Your goal is to make many small plaque blanks you cannot compete with the mass producers who not only have very fast high power equipment but also buy their lumber at different price levels then you can probably get.

[ken_rychlik]

I make cabinet parts on my cnc. I build my own doors and glue up solid wood door panels that would be similar to your needs. I DO NOT use the cnc for door making. It is not the right tool for the job in my opinion. If you need to cut out blanks in the shape of your state or some interesting design, the cnc would be a good tool for that job. If you have to make 1000 square blanks you are shooting yourself in the foot trying to do it with a cnc.

A gang rip saw, glue rack, and a wide belt sander would be much better suited for what you are describing. Just the amount of sawdust you create will baffle you.

You can buy cabinets made in china as well. You can buy complete cabinets for the price of materials to build them, so there is no way to compete with that. If you hire an extra person to make these for you and buy all of the equipment you will be loosing money on the venture. If you are semi-retired and just enjoy the thought of making them as a hobby, then go for it.

[Ajcoholic]

I make cabinet parts on my cnc. I build my own doors and glue up solid wood door panels that would be similar to your needs. I DO NOT use the cnc for door making. It is not the right tool for the job in my opinion. If you need to cut out blanks in the shape of your state or some interesting design, the cnc would be a good tool for that job. If you have to make 1000 square blanks you are shooting yourself in the foot trying to do it with a cnc.

A gang rip saw, glue rack, and a wide belt sander would be much better suited for what you are describing. Just the amount of sawdust you create will baffle you.

You can buy cabinets made in china as well. You can buy complete cabinets for the price of materials to build them, so there is no way to compete with that. If you hire an extra person to make these for you and buy all of the equipment you will be loosing money on the venture. If you are semi-retired and just enjoy the thought of making them as a hobby, then go for it.

I agree. For producing square or rectangular wood award blanks, you cant beat traditional (albeit good quality, heavier duty) woodworking equipment.

I of course have a well equipped "traditional" shop, and almost on a daily basis glue up blanks for things such as raised panel doors, cabinet parts, tops for tables, etc.

The common flow through a woodworking shop is (assuming you are processing rough lumber of random width & length):

1- rough cut to length
2- joint one face, one edge
3- rip to widths (eliminate defects)
4- laminate panels
5- rip to finished width
6- trim to finished length
7- sand edges
8- sand faces

and of course profile edges.

For this type of work, without getting "everything"... you would need at the minimum a good quality table saw. An industrial 5HP saw is very nice, but a standard 3HP 10" saw will do, but I wouldnt go less. A sliding carriage would allow accurate cross cuts as well as ripping, but you are looking at quite a bit more $$.
A good jointer and planer. A good selection of clamps (it is hard to beat Pony brand 3/4" pipe clamps) or better yet a clamp carrier.
A smaller wide belt sander (single head) will perform MUCH better than any drum. You have a lot more belt area which keeps the heat down, and is much more efficient. But, WB sanders are unfortunately not cheap.
Standard 6"x108" edge sander
SPindle shaper (1 1/4") with power feed.

I would bet I could supply blanks for as cheap as any coing from over seas. The key is, as is with most business, is finding a good wholesale wood supplier, and getting a good efficient flow in your shop, once set up. You need to have equipment that you can depend upon daily - without going out of adjustment, or breaking down.

A lot can be done with lesser expensive, hobby grade equipment - but if you are talking quantity, and depending upon this stuff daily, you are better to look at industrial quality equipment. It is made to run hard, and stand up.

And dont overlook used equipment from close outs, auctions, etc - unfortunately a lot of companies tend to go out of business with hard economic times. SOme times, a super deal can be made on a very good piece.

AJC

PS an of course a decent duct collector, with an easy to empty can or bin. Cyclones make this easy, I'd look at something like what Oneida has to offer.

[Braden]

Thank you everyone for the help and insight on this!

The pieces I hope to make will have irregular shapes to them, I am trying to break the mold on what has been the norm for so long in the awards market. As of now I do not plan on doing any glue ups, I hope to use solid pieces of wood for everything I will be making. From the research I have done for my wood that will be used, I will be buying pieces that have been planed and squared already with the hopes that this will allow me to produce pieces faster.

Also, another perk in my mind is that with the cnc I hope to see very little variation in the size of my blanks. Once the pieces are done I will create a jig for may laser using the outlines from the cnc, if my pieces fluctuate in size they will not work to mass engrave in the laser with my jig.

I am not opposed to buying anything used to save money, but if I get a used cnc are there specific problems I should look for?

Thank you all again for the advice and tips, the information is very helpful!