Before I purchase the SB link [Archive]

michael_schwartz

04-07-2012, 08:53 PM

I reinstalled ecabinets today, and I my plan is to at least give it a serious try. I have subscribed to the training videos, and plan to watch them over the next couple of days.

I am really considering purchasing the SB link, but I plan to spend some time working with the software first.

Of course one of my concerns are the numerous reports of bugs, and various issues. I have seen that there have been improvements over time. How is the current version in this regard. I don't mind working around a couple of minor problems from time to time, but I also want to get up and running quickly without having to learn what works, and what doesn't.

Second of all I understand the primary focus of E-Cabinets is, cabinetry, and casework. I am wondering how practical it is to go beyond the modification of standard cabinet boxes, and assemblies included in the library, and create designs from scratch, while retaining many the full benefits of the software. Specifically in terms of custom casework, or even furniture.

Overall for the price, it seems like the SB link, is something I can't afford to not have. I am not about to spend $20k for the alternatives.

I drew a simple bookcase with blind dado construction, adjustable shelves, and a 1/4" dadoed back in about 5 minutes. I would plan on spending at least 1/2 a day drawing the same thing in aspire. I am really impressed by the automation.

kevin

04-07-2012, 09:00 PM

Micheal give cabinet parts a try

I find it more does what I want I have more control dado you name it

I use KD Draw for design its cheap

What I find with the link is the huge amount of sheets it takes to make a kitchen , I've brought this up before never given a straight answer ?

michael_schwartz

04-07-2012, 09:42 PM

I just experimented some and modified the frameless base into my standard design with 2 4.5" wide top stretchers, back nailer, and a 1/4" captured back, and removed the toe kick since I do separate applied bases. The material yields seem to be much better that way than with the standard library. If I were only cutting a single sheet though I think I could probably do a better job nesting by hand. I don't know if it is possible to modify the nests.

kevin

04-07-2012, 09:57 PM

If you want to seperate yourself from the pack use full back 3/4 thick it makes for an easier install and your only saving a 2 sheets on a kitchen

Same with stretchers I know everybody does it doesn.t make it right

garyc

04-08-2012, 10:06 AM

Michael...
There are a few bugs listed in the "to fix" queue, but most of these are issues that have popped up only when using a specific keystroke order not expected by the programmers. Few, if any, of these are stopping users from making their cabinets, as workarounds have been posted.

Try downloading the free furniture libraries from Thermwood, as eCabs (and the Link) has many furniture component machining capabilities. Including 3D carving of inlays/onlays on to nested lumber components.

To the nesting; computer nesting will seldom replace the human eye/brain combo on a small number of parts, i.e. a few sheets. The time savings comes in time when doing large numbers of parts over dozens or hundreds of sheets. Nesting is done in seconds vs possibly hours. The Link has no provisions for modification of nested sheets. After a few years of use, I dont feel one is needed.

I have Beta tested for both eCabs and for Cabinet Parts Pro and have not seen a significant difference in the yield. With that said, there are a number of settings that the Link has that CPPro doesnt that could drastically affect the yield. Kevin could have had one or more of those settings set for less than the most efficient yield.

In my opinion the Link's ability to process a complete job as one file, instead of one file per sheet, and handles jobs with multiple thickness' puts it near the top of the pile for casework design software. The edgeband thickness allowance, assembly marks, custom hole patterns, door and drawer front boring and you have a great package. Last, but not least, you have virtually unrestricted joinery. Most other packages give you a limited number of joinery methods.

My personal favorite is the Mortise(dado) and tenon joinery. It makes the strongest and squarest boxes I have built. With or without fasteners. Many jobs or materials just cannot have exposed staples or screws.

The learning curve is steep, (eCabs, not the SB Link) as is with any full featured software package, but once you are over that hump, you will find that you have many quick and easy solutions to put yourself ahead of the pack.

michael_schwartz

04-08-2012, 11:36 AM

The new "lock dado" joint also looks very appealing. Has anybody given that a try yet?

garyc

04-08-2012, 02:03 PM

Michael...
There are a number of guys over on the eCabs forum that have tried it. It seems to be pretty good overall, unless tried with a fibrous sheetgood product. You might read up there for more info.

dlcw

04-09-2012, 08:23 AM

Michael,

I've been using SBLink for about 3 years now and in the beginning it was a real PITA. However, with Gary's and others' help, I've been able to do some pretty cool things with it. I've done custom wall/bookcase units, I did a monitor support stand/organizer for my desk out of left over 1/2" hickory plywood, plus many other things - not kitchen cabinet related.

What I found is that you need to setup the software to accommodate for the flex in the Shopbot. This is accomplished by cutting your parts in 2 passes. This creates a SUPER clean cut, exactly on the line that I can take directly to the edgebander. No additional work is needed on the edge. Most of my custom cabinet work uses the mortise and tenon joinery method. For my RTA and Semi-custom line I use rafix (cam) connectors to make it easy on the end customer. A screw drivers is all that is needed to assemble one of these cabinets.

If you are going to do flip ops, you really need a super accurate zeroing system to ensure everything lines up. I'm going to redo my pin system using pneumatics instead of the system I now use. I recently redid my vacuum holddown system (thank you Gary for the great design) incorporating 7 zones. Since my table is 60x96 I cut both 4x8 and 5x5 sheets (drawer parts). The zone setup is made to accommodate this setup with now need for fillers to cover exposed spoil board areas. It is worked REALLY well. I use two motors for the first pass on everything and then switch in the second two motors to make sure everything is really held tightly to the table. This has been a huge step forward for me.

The only downside to SBLink is that it has not updated it since June 2010. I would like to see the UI cleaned up and made a little simpler and clearer for us woodworking types. It is definitely geared toward a programmer using it and not a woodworker.

michael_schwartz

04-09-2012, 09:30 PM

I have been watching the training videos, and they are well worth the time. Even the ones that cover obvious topics contain little tidbits that you would miss otherwise.

I am really excited about the possibilities of being able to work with blind dado, and RTA construction, without having to reinvent the wheel every single time.

So far I am comfortable at least with the prospect of using E-Cabinets for design, and renderings. The prospect of committing to nest and cut $1000 worth of material is a bit scary but I will experiment with low cost material at first. I guess it will be a good time to order some /cough melamine, and make a couple of shop cabinets.

I remember some time ago there was a thread about a training DVD for the link, that Gary was working on. Did this ever materialize? The discussion on this pointed to a link, that no longer exists.

I will probably save flip ops later, but I am sure i will find a need to use them. I built an over size support board when I redid my spoil board so I would have a means to securely attach a means for indexing. I have some ideas, and I have seen the various setups, that have been posted here.

dan_nelson

04-10-2012, 08:50 PM

michael, Ive looked at you site and was impressed.Cabinet software doesnt have to cost an arm and a leg to cut boxes. Spend the 250 and buy cabinets parts pro or use the trial version and cut 5 cabinets. If you run into something you cant cut with it you already have Aspire. It takes five minutes to draw and file a cabinet any kind of dado you want.

kevin

04-22-2012, 07:18 PM

Sorry I.am a little laggy at answering this .But its an important subject its the differnce between your doors are open or closed.

Micheal I assume you want to try closets first all built in cabinetry has exposed ends .What to do remeber all wall are not straight .The problem with most shops is they put skin on or leave the side to finished .I find that it looks unfinished something missing ,Its easier to make your side seperate from the cabinet .ITS A CLEARNER INSTALL

So that leave trating the cabinet as boxes which they are .What software will save time CPP OR Shpbot link
Gary my question is I read some of these post about 50 sheets a kitchen in Shopbot link which is huge and scare me to try .I will to try the link with an open mind or somebody whos doing both can convince me otherwise

Micheal look at other cabinet shop how there dealing with above problem

There 3 photo one to show there just boxes .The other 2 as tip on how to go to the ceiling

ken_rychlik

04-22-2012, 08:18 PM

Kevin, I have run both. Ecabs first and then cpp after changing to a machine other than a bot. Both are better at different things. If you want fast easy to use, cpp is best. If you want to make complicated cabinets, ecabinet shines after the learning curve. Ecabinets can change all materials on a cabinet with a click. On CPP you have to change each material on each part. Ecabs will do most anything you can think of, but it takes a while to learn the tricks. If you want a wide cabinet with a divider, adj shelves on one side and perm shelf on the other, it can be done in ecabs but not cpp. Ecabs shows you what the cabinet looks like and all of the joinery. On cpp you make the settings but can't "see" the cuts until nesting.
Now one thing that did bother me about ecabs is the lack of response with updates. They have a lot of known bugs and it has been a couple of years without an update.
The times I have emailed a problem to Ryan, I have been fixed in a matter of days if not the same day. The toolpathing in cpp is nowhere near as adjustable and user friendly as ecabs though. I find myself toolpathing in aspire, because cpp is lacking in this area.
I run fast straight cabinets with cpp now and do the wierd stuff in aspire. Most toolpathing is done in aspire with toolpath templates.

garyc

04-22-2012, 08:20 PM

Michael...
There are a good number of users here using eCabs and the ShopBot Link. To a man they have been willing to help new users jump over the hurdles associated with inexperience.

I have sold a good number of the Link Training Videos, but I have not taken the steps to have ShopBot approve them and we have not made an arrangement for the videos to be sold thru them (ShopBot). In the mean time, any user requiring help with the Link can call ShopBot and the call can be put thru to me. I will walk you thru the settings for your machine.

Waiting a while to implement FlipOps or any of the advanced features in the Link is a good idea. Learn the main core of the software then add features as your jobs require them. Each step will have a learning curve, but most of the guys that use them will let you know that it is worth it.

Dan...
I would agree that using the Vectric products is easier than it used to be. I would also strongly dissagree that any Vector based CAD/CAM product will produce cabinets anywhere near as efficiently as a nested base machining software such as CPPro or eCabs. Experienced Autocad users with an existing library will tell you that design time will be 25% or less with eCabs, once learned.

Kevin...
If a job took 50 sheets, the job was just that big. Nested base software uses less materials than any other form of job cutting. Period. Very few, if any, cabinet software products output jobs with any less material than any of the others.

I have cut a few hundred sheets with CPPro and over a thousand with eCabs and the Link. I have also observed and spoke at length with users of Cabinet Vision and Micro Vellum. Additionally, I have test drove, had a factory demo or used a trial version of a dozen cabinet design packages priced from $1K to $8.5K. I have also seen the code or watched the machining output of KCDW and 2020. I have also tutored ACad users in the changeover to eCabs and heard their rave reviews. My advice does not waiver:

If your cabinet construction methods are supported by CPPro, then it is the easiest to learn and least cost product available to enable nested based machining with a small CNC. (as it outputs to other makes than ShopBot)

If you wish to add quality joinery, hardware and advanced machining strategies AND you are able to suffer thru the learning curve of eCabs, then eCabs and the Link is for you. (outputs only to a Thermwood or ShopBot) Nothing under $20K will produce better cabinets on a ShopBot than eCabs and the SB Link.

michael_schwartz

04-23-2012, 02:32 AM

Thanks for all the words of advice.

I am going to go ahead and order the link.

If I were to offer a suggestion to anybody that is new to E-cabinets like myself. The first thing you should do is to start watching the Thermwood training videos. Once you see the software demonstrated in the way that it is intended to be used it is really much simpler than you might think. I have watched about 1/2 of the videos, and they are time consuming, but I have a much better understanding of the software now.

Even the videos that cover features that you may be familiar with are worth watching because they often contain little technical details you may not have known about.

CPP is a great value. I had planned to go this route first, but I feel like, I would end up buying the link anyway.

jTr

04-24-2012, 01:23 PM

michael_schwartz

04-25-2012, 08:57 AM

Michael,
Like you, I'm in same position and feel ecabs is the best route to invest money and learning time for optimal return in results. I see you are a more traditional furniture maker like myself. What design software have you been using to sort out the complexities of the more traditional furniture pieces thus far?
jeff

I was able to find your website, and your work is very nice.

I use Aspire to create all of the geometry that I machine, and to a certain extent, I will make due and use it in place of a traditional cad program, when I need to work out technical details, since I am so used to working with it.

I have not been able to find anything better than SketchUp, for simple mockups and renderings. I also like to use it to play with ideas. I will occasionally use SketchUp to produce simple dimensioned drawings. When working in SketchUp, I try not to take things too seriously, so I leave out joinery details, and approximate more complicated elements. I almost never create separate components, since that ends up taking a lot of time.

My goal with E-Cabinets is to streamline the process of building plywood, casework. That includes, design, estimation, project bidding, and production. By not having to worry about reinventing the wheel, every time I have to build a cabinet box, or plywood assembly, I feel that I will be able to spend more time concentrating on managing the more important parts of a project.

jTr

04-25-2012, 09:46 AM

michael_schwartz

04-25-2012, 11:17 AM

Michael,
Thanks for the response and comments.
Apart from the Aspire program, looks like I'm in the same place with software.
With a certain level of creativity, it looks like ecabs may be able to be pushed into more advanced furniture forms, but not quite the blank slate freedom offered by sketchup,etc.

If you haven't seen it, this website is worth a look, as discussed yesterday in another thread:
http://www.cambiummachines.com/CambiumCodeStandard.html

jeff

That is interesting, I will have to check it out.

While cabinetry, and architectural woodwork require detailed drawings and success or failure is determined by careful planning. When I build furniture I prefer a much more casual approach to design.

I will limit renderings, to a simple mockup, and I try not to get to tied up in the drawing process. When appropriate, I like to start out with a very basic plan, and design, as I build. This is what I enjoy the most. Of course cabinet work warrants a very formal design process.

For furniture that is not primarily CNC machined I do envision intentionally limiting the use of e-cabinets to creating plywood sub assemblies, while using Sketch up for the overall design. I also see this as a way to bypass the learning curve somewhat, until I am more comfortable working with E-cabinets.

kevin

04-25-2012, 10:29 PM

Micheal 2 cents when I bought the indexing head I thought I would come up with a one button solution it didn't work so well.The best results I had is doing one section at a time treating it like a tool.The point is there is no way around using different products to reach your goal.
If you can swing ask it in the form go on an install .You furniture rocks if you can bring that to your built in should be interresting

Gary sometimes you get comfortable and its hard to change.

www.kdunphy.com (http://www.kdunphy.com)

garyc

04-25-2012, 10:57 PM

Kevin...
Being one of "those old guys that is set in his ways" I was forever looking for an affordable software that could meet my joinery needs for both cabinetry and furniture. I never did many kitchens, 3 in 30 years I guess, so I wanted to use the CNC to enhance quality and impove speed.

eCabs was the one software that made it all come together for me. The only cost was my time to learn investment. It took the better part of a year to get where I wanted to be with the design aspect. Those that have made the commitment and got over the hump seldom go back. I will agree, its not for everyone.

michael_schwartz

04-26-2012, 01:36 PM

Well I ordered the link and the dongle is on the way.

Its too early to say much, but I do have a project coming up, and I will certainly share the results.

crash5050

08-09-2012, 11:44 PM

Will the Shopbot link work in preview mode of the SB Software? I downloaded the link, and of course, since I have been a mach 3 user for 2 years, I am completley baffled by the sb interface.

garyc

08-10-2012, 07:16 AM

The SB Link will allow you to look it over, review the code, but will not output viable code that can be viewed with SB3 in preview mode. You will be able to bring in a TWD from eCabs and evaluate how it nests.

sbd1

09-03-2012, 05:21 PM

Micheal, I'd be interested to hear how you are making out after 4 months of using eCabinets? I was reading through this thread & can relate to allot of your comments.
Thanks

michael_schwartz

09-04-2012, 11:08 PM

Micheal, I'd be interested to hear how you are making out after 4 months of using eCabinets? I was reading through this thread & can relate to allot of your comments.
Thanks

Here are a couple of pictures from my phone. This is an e-cab/link job, I built that I am currently installing. Note that the old countertop was temporarily reinstalled, while I complete the butcher block counters. The cloths washer is going to be replaced with a dishwasher.

I still have quite a bit of trim to scribe and install, and I am also fabricating a built in shelf unit which will be installed at the end of the cabinets. I will have some proper photos in a few weeks.

In short the learning curve with E-Cabinets is very manageable. Gary C. walked me through the relevant link settings for my machine so it didn't take much to get going.

I did run into a very strange issue with the ShopBot manual tool change routine that would intermittently result in loss of the offset that is used when zeroing to the bed, after a bit change. This resulted in the bit plunging through into my spoil board a few times. I think I was able to find a solution but I have not had the time to explore this any further.

Luckily I did not encounter any bugs with E-cabinets, or the link. Everything seemed to work fine, and I found it very easy to setup my own cabinet library. The training videos will demystify the software and show you how the programmers want it to be used. Even if you think you have a grasp on the software, you will learn from the videos that cover the even most basic features that you think you already know.

I was a little bit nervous about cutting $1000 worth of plywood, days after receiving the link dongle, especially when I had only been working with E-Cabinets for a week or two. There were a few moments I was tempted to start cutting everything on the table saw but other than that one issue, everything went ok.

The vacuum hold down I setup from a pair of central vacuum motors, has been working really well. In short I have been able to hold just about anything, I want within reason.

I know some people may find this interesting, but I have been running both E-Cabinet Systems and Aspire on my 2011 Macbook Pro via Parallels 8, and they both run quite fast. It helps that I upgraded to a solid state drive but I can resume the windows 7 virtual machine, and load either program in about 10 seconds. I probably won't bother to upgrade, or replace the older windows desktop, I have been using for design.

sbd1

09-05-2012, 11:17 AM

Nice looking cabinets Michael.

I was a little bit nervous about cutting $1000 worth of plywood, days after receiving the link dongle, especially when I had only been working with E-Cabinets for a week or two. There were a few moments I was tempted to start cutting everything on the table saw

That's exactly where I'm at. I have a kitchen coming down the pipeline and I can't find software that I'm comfortable with - or that I trust. After speaking with Gary a couple of weeks ago about it he convinced me that eCabs had too big of a learning/setup curve to use for a kitchen I needed cut soon (and if cabinets wasn't my mainstay business, then it was probably too much software). He suggested I take a look at CabinetPartsPro, which I did. But after reading everything I could find about it (which is very limited), working with it (which is not intuitive), asking Ryan for help directly (without any real results), and even offering to pay someone to help me get over the hump (no one offered), I've pretty much given up on CPP. Which is sad really, because I can see its potential.

Now I'm half-heartedly contemplating eCabinets again. And while I feel that your experience was ultimately a good one, I don't know if I'm as brave as you. The alternative is drawing all the parts in SketchUp & then nesting & toolpathing them in ArtCAM manually for this order. If I could cross-cut sheets on my tablesaw I would probably opt for that this time.

BUT....I still really like the idea of eCabinets. Anyone willing to spend a few hours online with me helping me get the main settings dialed-in?

michael_schwartz

09-05-2012, 12:53 PM

Keep in mind, I spent 40+ hours working with the software, within that two week timeframe.

To dial in fit tolerances for blind dados, I like to cut scaled down cabinets, and or drawer boxes. This also works well for testing a design. I will bet that this will work in other software too.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15412

At first you can skip the project and material estimation features in e-cabinets. Try producing simple renderings, but don't get too carried away. I still haven't bothered adding 3D display objects such as knobs and pulls, or appliances. Keep it simple, at first (KISS).

I do think it is worthwhile to setup the hardware hole patterns for hinges, and slides. The training videos made this easy. Otherwise I wouldn't have known where to begin. This saved me 1-2 days of time on the project I am working on.

I cant really think of an entire list off the top of my head but here are some things to pay attention to.

1. Edge banding. Make sure to verify the edge banding thickness, and check each and every edge, of all parts for desired banding settings. This will affect the depth of the cabinet. When you cut a cabinet, and one side is 1mm short for example, this is where you want to look.

2. Check and make sure that a cabinet can be machined without using flip ops. You will inevitably have to go back and modify a box when you load it up into the link and realize you missed a part that has machining operations on the other side. Save flip ops for later.

3. Cut one or more test cabinets, from inexpensive material. I cut one of my drawer bases, to check the hardware hole pattern for my slides. After this I was confident enough to trust my setup, for everything else.

sbd1

09-05-2012, 04:25 PM

Well, I just took the plunge & ordered the SB link & the book. And I'll signup again for the videos. My wife (and my back's) not going to be happy with me spending more time at the computer, but I know it's necessary.

It's like you were reading my mind Mike. The 40+ hours comment scares me a little, but I have a pretty good understanding of what's going on. I'm going to do the same thing you did & build small test cabs & drawers to get my confidence up.

I did notice there's a conflict that occurs if I dado the back panel into the top/bottom while also wanting to have blind dados between the sides & top/bottom that would require flip-ops - something I don't want to do yet - so I'll have either cut the dado on a table saw later or change my construction. How did you do it?

Hardware holes, edgebanding, no flip-ops, small tests on inexpensive material - all good advice.

Thank you.

sbd1

10-21-2012, 11:16 AM

Mike. How do you zero a tool to the bed if there's a sheet of material on the table? Ie: You have just finished drilling 5mm holes & cutting dados, now you need to change to a 3/8" bit for perimeter cutouts. You can't exactly move the sheet to get to the bed to zero on.

I think I'm going to build a fixed zero plate on a resurfaceable block off the side of my table.

Thanks

michael_schwartz

10-28-2012, 09:02 PM

The link will walk you through the each tool change, and give you an opportunity to zero the bit if necessary.

I zero to the bed of the machine (aka the spoil board). Once you start doing it this way you will never want to zero to the top of the material again. When zeroing to the bed you do not need to worry about minor variations in thickness within the material, small differences from one sheet to another.

For an off table reference I use a small vacuum puck to hold my z-zero plate nice and tight. My Z-Zero routine is setup to automatically go to this location. (roughly x=2 - y=-1.25)
a
I made this the same size as my Z-Zero plate. I put a piece of trupan on top to act as a mini bleeder board board. I modified my table surfacing routine to surface this puck so that it is the exact same height as my table. When using a 1-1.25" bit I have to cheat a little and flush up the last 1/8" on the righthand side with a chisel (easier done than said)

I hooked it up to the plumbing for my table with polyurethane tubing from the hardware store. I was going to install a knife valve but The vacuum leakage doesn't even show up on my gauge . I am only using a pair of lighthouse 110v motors any i do not notice any loss from this.

1649916500

sbd1

10-29-2012, 11:55 AM

Thanks Mike. I'm still struggling with getting mine setup correctly to zero to the bed, but I understand the virtues of it. I've built a similar fixed zero plate block at 35,-1.25 that gets surfaced with my spoilboard (remove the plate before hand). Here's a pic.

Next time, after this spoilboard is finished, I'll mount the plate permanently in an off-table block below the spoilboard & use an offset in the file so that I don't have to surface this block each time I surface the spoilboard.