Ethics and handmade items.

[CNYDWW]

I've been in talks with a couple starting a small business making "handmade" children's toys. They want me to cut them out with the band saw and use my spindle sander to clean the parts up. Rest is up to them. They do NOT want me to use the cnc. I would have to clean up the details they want with the scroll saw if that were the case anyways. I know they wouldn't know the difference. The price they want to pay for the hand work is pretty low but would be worth my wile using the bot. A lot less sanding etc. makes a huge difference. Been there, finished orders by hand when my old machine was down constantly.

What would you guys do?
Regards
Randy

[SterlingDevelop]

Do not mislead them.
I think they're nuts to care-the finished product on the 'Bot is better,
but some people are weird.

But that's not a reason to deceive them.

It's either worth it to you or not.

Quote them X dollars on the CNC, Y dollars on bandsaw, let them make the choice and keep a clean conscience.

My 2 cents.

Brent

[Brady Watson]

Yup...Price yourself out of doing them by hand...unless you enjoy working for slave wages.

-B

[rej]

you need a different client.

[CNYDWW]

I do this quite often. Ask the question and already know what i'm going to reply. I quoted them just under twice what they wanted to pay per set of parts. Funny thing is, on their little website pointing to Etsy and Facebook. It says that they're all made in their little shop with love and care etc etc etc. If that really were the case, why would they contact me?

I honestly do like to hear everyone's opinions on these things when i run into them. I honestly do know better then to take the hand work at their prices.

Regards
Randy

[donek]

I do this quite often. Ask the question and already know what i'm going to reply. I quoted them just under twice what they wanted to pay per set of parts. Funny thing is, on their little website pointing to Etsy and Facebook. It says that they're all made in their little shop with love and care etc etc etc. If that really were the case, why would they contact me?

I honestly do like to hear everyone's opinions on these things when i run into them. I honestly do know better then to take the hand work at their prices.

Regards
Randy

You might point out the reason they are hunting for someone other than themselves to do the work with "loving care in a little workshop", is because they've likely discovered that it's inefficient and unprofitable. If they are looking for someone to do the job for less than they are getting, then the job will need to be done more efficiently.

[Ajcoholic]

To me, "hand made" implies no power tools used. Coping or fret saw, hand sanding, etc. Chisels, planes, etc.

Once power tools are introduced, a product is no longer "hand made". At least not in my book.

I have argued in the past, with guitar players who want a "hand made instrument" and think some how CNC takes away from that...

What is the difference between a builder using a router, jigs and fixtures (often which are cnc made) to guide a router bit - and a cnc router? Not much. The skill of the operator to read the wood, and select the correct feed direction, speed, and tool bit. In each case. It is just that in one case, you dont need all the fancy jigs and fixtures.

In your case, Randy, I wouldnt lie. Tell them you will do it your way, with the cnc, and they can do the hand sanding, etc afterwards. If they dont want to accept that, then pay the higher price of cut on the band saw. if they dont want that, then they dont want it bad enough.

AJC

[gene]

i took one of those last year and couldnt get back out fast enough:eek:

[stump]

We have been asked this about the Stump's Puzzles. I always say that we assemble each one ourselves, which we do. I think of "Hand Made" as a carving or something made without power tools. We go with "assembled by hand" because I don't have the skill, patience, or time to make it all by hand.

[genek]

What i do is say that the my products are made in the appalachian mountains of kentucky...technically all items that has to be hand sanded, hand fitted, and put together is hand made. When it is not hand made is when the machines do all the work... All of my products started out being hand made, my christmas ornaments was done on a scroll saw now i do them with a laser. My spoons were all hand turned then split and dipped out by hand.... Now they are turned on a dubl lathe, split and dipped out with the cnc... I still have to hand sand and finish each... The
this is a major point... On sales... So to avoid telling a lie or misleading someone... I always... Say that they are made in the u.s. Or appalachian mountains.... Hence our company name appalachian mountain crafts.

[Brady Watson]

Where do you draw the line? How is an automated router any different from one you run by hand? Is it not guided by a human to program it's path of cut? What about a table, chop or jig saw? They are all power tools...So unless you cut, sand and paint everything without the use of electricity with hand tools, then you are not really making it by hand.

This whole idea that using a CNC somehow makes your or their product disingenuous is the product of ignorance. People do not understand that there first has to be a design created by a human being. Then that design has to be thought through with proper intent to get it to cut correctly etc. The CNC will cut horrible renditions of classic ornament or beautiful ones...The human artist/designer/operator is the variable in all of this.

I've had customers that were all into the 'made by hand' thing until we had a little chat about labor cost, insurance and additional material waste by doing it 'by hand'. I've found that those who request things made 'by hand' know little about the manufacturing process and need to be groomed and sheparded a bit in order to get them grounded in reality. I've also found that the majority of these customers will err on the side of what is 'cheaper' as long as the margin is wide enough between doing it via CNC and this farcical idea of 'hand made'.

Hand made is only important if we are talking about cars, musical instruments and sandwiches :D


-B

[michael_schwartz]

Out of respect for their wishes, I would either turn down the job, or give them a price to cut them out using the bandsaw.

I think the definition of what is truly hand crafted, should be left up to the expectations of each individual customer Most people could never come to an agreement. I have heard vastly different opinions from just about everybody. I have discussed this with people recognized as authorities. I have my own opinion. Trying to come up with a standard would be a ridiculous proposition. Each opinion I have heard, is probably valid given the right set of circumstances.

At a certain point people would probably be offended if you used certain hand tools, because at a certain point even when working without electricity there are plenty of methods and tools that require more skill than others. Here is an extreme example of that, but you could make an arguement for using a chislel rather than a hand plane, because the plane would be too easy.

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tools/jointmaker/jointmakers/jmpv2-jointmaker-pro.html

[kevin]

Your there to make a living peroid .Weather your using a water mill bandsaw its none of there bussiness how you do it .When customer are telling you how to work its a omen to walk away

There was a guy doing carving by hand of flowers they where amazing .Its posted on woodweb he was asking 2,000 for a piece 6 inches by 6 inches

[tappsman]

It sounds like they may be just using you to determine how many hours they can afford to put into the job and also for setting their prices. A couple of things raised flags for me 1. I've been in talks with a couple starting a small business making "handmade" children's toys. 2. they're all made in their little shop. It doesn't sound like you want to do the job unless it is with your CNC so I think that I would decline to offer a price using the band saw.

[myxpykalix]

Here's the thing that struck me...why are they asking YOU do make these parts?
What i mean by that is, why don't they want to make them, theirselves?
answer: it's too much work for THEM, but so as to keep them HANDMADE we can get some other sucker to do the hard part for us? Speaking metaphorically that is;)

Randy i've seen your work, you won't make something half-assed so what you will wind up doing is working for about 5.00/hour. Like others have said, give them a price for doing it handmade then one on the CNC and let them pick, remember THEY don't set the price, YOU DO.:mad:

[robtown]

It's a race to the bottom. If you do it, and they like it, they'll want more... for less... everytime.

[kevin]

I hear these guys are cheap and all hand made

[jhedlund58]

i had a guy who had a business card as a woodworker... but i was doing all the woodworkin... didn't know how much to charge him so i left it to his concience... was not good enuff for me.. so i told him to go jump in a lake ... he is still doin woodworkin with no tools.. but a nice business card!!... good by... i don't need his type o work!!!.. i still day trading... made 360 buck on POTash in 4 days... 38 percent profit on investment... get that outa bank...or a woodworker with no tools... POT is the stock symbol for POTASH.. look it up... make more money with my brains than my tools... but i love my workshop... with tools... maybe i should get a fancy business card...haha...love my shopbot

[michael_schwartz]

i had a guy who had a business card as a woodworker... but i was doing all the woodworkin... didn't know how much to charge him so i left it to his concience... was not good enuff for me.. so i told him to go jump in a lake ... he is still doin woodworkin with no tools.. but a nice business card!!... good by... i don't need his type o work!!!.. i still day trading... made 360 buck on POTash in 4 days... 38 percent profit on investment... get that outa bank...or a woodworker with no tools... POT is the stock symbol for POTASH.. look it up... make more money with my brains than my tools... but i love my workshop... with tools... maybe i should get a fancy business card...haha...love my shopbot

With all the doors, drawers, and flat packed cabinet parts people buy you have to wonder if this is actually more common than you would think.

[Ajcoholic]

Thank goodness there is still a market for high quality, well made wooden furniture... even if it isnt all "hand made"... :)

AJC

[wberminio]

Hand made is a misnomer.EVERYTHING is made using tools.From a carving knife to CNC,
If Michelangelo or DaVinci had a Shopbot they would not only use it but ....
just imagine!
You have to decide do you want a hobby whittling sticks fine.If you want to/need to make $$$$ than CNC is the way to go.
If not hand made its at least hand finished!:)