Outsourcing doors

[john_hartman]

For all those cabinet makers out there... I've been outsourcing doors for larger kitchen projects. I have one that is to be painted. I've only ever fabricated my own doors when painted.

In the past when I was making my doors in-house I would make the center panel (.5" veneer ply) the same size as the perimeter mortise. Then I would glue it in place and a 1/16" bead of caulk around the perimeter where the panel meets the frame. This leaves a seem less door. Or if it was a raised panel I would pre-finish it as to not see unpainted edges when the panel shrank.

My door fabricator floats the center panel, flat or raised. I am trying figure out what is the best way to prep out-sourced doors and finish them with paint without worrying about the center panel splitting the caulk seem from the frame.

Can I glue the panel in place and caulk as I usually do? How is this done properly? Materials will be soft maple and veneer covered MDF.

[khaos]

I would glue the center of the panel on the end grains only. This will minimize the amount of movement the caulk has to contend with. Seems like if its not a fiberboard that it will eventually split from the rails and stiles.

Re-reading your post I see its just a veneer over fiber, in your case this would probably work fine. I hope this help a little.

[wberminio]

John
If the center panel is MDF then no worries.Caulk as u usually have done in the past.
If is solid wood (which I would not use for painted panels) then I would follow joe's advice

[dlcw]

For solid wood panels, I place a short bead of glue along the top and bottom rail (about 1.5"). This anchors the panel but still lets it expand and contract. I use spaceballs on the sides to keep the panel centered in the frame.

MDF is not going to move around in your panels (panels are relatively small). I would caulk them as you have done.

If you wanted to test things out, get a sample door from your supplier and go through your process and let it sit in the shop for a couple of weeks, them move it into your kitchen for a couple of weeks, then back to the shop. If there is going to be any movement, it will show up in this process.

[john_hartman]

Unfortunately I won't have time to do a test run. But it sounds like I should be dealing minimal shrinkage using an MDF core. Would it be a bad idea to glue the panel all the way around the rails and stiles?

I have never not used a thin bead of caulk on painted doors. I feel that it look so much better. However, if there is a universal method I would love to hear it..:)

[Ajcoholic]

John,
I have been manufacturing my own doors for as long as Ive been working, over 20 yrs now. I have made a lot of doors... :)

When I do paint grade, I use hard maple veneer on 1/4" MDF. I have always glued in my panels and also caulk around the edge to prevent the "dark line", when doing a white or off white coloured lacquer finish.

I have never, ever had any issues. Ever. With a PC or MDF core plywood, its not going to move enough to cause issue.

Of course with a solid wood panel (flat or raised, doesnt matter) you have to let the panel float as stated, and cannot caulk. I too will not do a paint grade panel with solid anymore, as it is too difficult to cope with wood movement.

AJC

[Ajcoholic]

Would it be a bad idea to glue the panel all the way around the rails and stiles?

I have never not used a thin bead of caulk on painted doors. I feel that it look so much better. However, if there is a universal method I would love to hear it..:)

I do glue the mdf panel on all 4 sides.

I agree 100% un-caulked solid colour doors (paint or coloured lacquer, etc) do look less attractive, due to the thin black line that you always see between the frame and panel. Especially with light colours.

AJC

[michael_schwartz]

Is the actual thickness of 1/4" veneer faced MDF any better, than 1/4" plywood?

[Ajcoholic]

The sheet stock I buy is exactly 1/4" thick. The maple is on both sides of the MDF. It fits my "made in N.America" rail & stile sets.

I also have some European made rail and stile cutters. For those I buy a thinner product, around 5.2 or 5.3 mm

I wish everything was standard... :rolleyes: but its not. At least not in Canada! You really have to watch (and spec) what you are buying.

AJC

[myxpykalix]

Andrew,
Do you carry your calipers with you to the store? I have been known to do that on at least one occassion when i absolutely had to have the same thickness material for a project as spec'ed by the customer who was a real D*head about this. He would never know the difference in the end product, or within the grand scheme of the project it wouldn't have mattered, but some people like that you just absolutely don't mind charging them extra!:D

[john_hartman]

Andrew- Thanks for the info. That is exactly what I was looking for..:D

[richards]

It seems to me that the whole purpose of "panels" is to allow the wood to move. Most of us remember that first breadboard that we built, i.e., several pieces of lumber joined together to make the board, and a cross-piece of lumber at 90-degrees along the top for the "handle".

On a 24" board, it was not unusual for the "board" to expand 1/4" beyond the "handle" or to shrink 1/4".

On solid MDF where the panels are carved into the door, nothing needs to be done. On panelled doors, where the panel is solid wood, you can put a spot of glue on the center of the top and bottom of the panel so that the panel can still expand along the width of the panel.

When the panel is a form of plywood, you still have to account for the expansion of the stiles.

Personally, I always pre-finished the panel before gluing up a door, then it made little difference if the panel expanded or shrunk.

[gene]

What type of caulk are ya'll using that you can paint lacquer over it

[bleeth]

Gene: Note that Andy said "white or off-white". I bet he is caulking after finishing. The best finishers make sure some sealer and finish gets into the dado on the face side if finishing before assembly isn't an option.
Just like "what kind of joint should I use when making a box" has tons of answers depending on many variables so does "how should I finish 5 part cabinet doors" from style, material, finish, and even geographical area and site climate control system.

[Ajcoholic]

When the panel is a form of plywood, you still have to account for the expansion of the stiles.



Whether or not the stiles expand and contract has absolutely nothing to do with the panel. And as with the rails, wood doesnt move in length enough to cause any issues in a standard soze cabinet door.

AJC

[Ajcoholic]

What type of caulk are ya'll using that you can paint lacquer over it

I use Alex II plus - just a paintable latex caulk. I have lacquered over it for years.

AJC

[richards]

Andrew,
Even stiles expand and contract with the weather. A 4-inch oak stile will expand to 4.11-inches when the humidity changes from 10% to 90% (which happens every year in Utah in August when the thunderstorms pass through).

0.11-inches may not seem like much, but you have two stiles, so the expansion would be 0.22-inches. That is enough to destroy a door!

You'll find a very fine calculator at Woodbin.com that lets you compute the expansion of almost any species of wood.

A CNC machine makes cutting wood trivial, but craftsmen know that wood moves - a lot. When they build something, they build it to handle expansion. Those who are new to the trade think that wood is as stable as plastic or metal. They will quickly learn why panels are used and why drawer bottoms "float".

It pays to look at some designs from the master wood workers of one-hundred years ago. They had to account for wood movement.

[Ajcoholic]

Andrew,
Even stiles expand and contract with the weather. A 4-inch oak stile will expand to 4.11-inches when the humidity changes from 10% to 90% (which happens every year in Utah in August when the thunderstorms pass through).

0.11-inches may not seem like much, but you have two stiles, so the expansion would be 0.22-inches. That is enough to destroy a door!

You'll find a very fine calculator at Woodbin.com that lets you compute the expansion of almost any species of wood.

A CNC machine makes cutting wood trivial, but craftsmen know that wood moves - a lot. When they build something, they build it to handle expansion. Those who are new to the trade think that wood is as stable as plastic or metal. They will quickly learn why panels are used and why drawer bottoms "float".

It pays to look at some designs from the master wood workers of one-hundred years ago. They had to account for wood movement.

Mike,
But what has that have to do with how a raised panel door is constructed? The wood grain on the rails and stiles is always lengthwise. The groove in the rails and stiles is with the grain, not cross-grain. So, gluing in a plywood panel will never be an issue, as wood movement with the grain is miniscule - not enough to be concerned with, with any species I am aware of.

I know the rails and stiles themselves move (across the grain) somewhat. Even that will depend upon the cut, ie, flat sawn, rift or quarter sawn. Wood actually moves predominantly tangent to the growth rings (which is why flat sawn wood moves a lot moire than quarter sawn) But thats a moot point when discussing the panel.

A solid wood panel has to be floating, ie, free to move, as it will expand and contract. But an MDF or PC core plywood panel will never move enough to cause issue.

I have made several hundreds of doors per year for more than 1/2 of my life (over 20 years now). I have never had a plywood panel door, with the panel glued in cause issue.

I have, however, had solid panel doors crack, when I have been a little careless in gluing the rail/stile joint, and had a bit of glue freeze the panel in the corner. As a custom cabinetmaker/woodworker whose business is predominantly solid wood, I completely understand wood movement, trust me!

AJC

PS drawer bottoms have to float only when they are solid wood, just like doors. I make (and my father before me since the late 1960s) my drawer boxes from basswood. I use a plywood bottom, in a groove. Also glued into the drawer box. Same situation as the doors... since the panel is glued in with the grain, and both exhibit very little movement, there is no issue. But, replace that ply panel with a solid wood one, and you have to let it move.