Price

[kubotaman]

I am looking for opinions only. I was asked if I could "cut" a large table top made from local wood that was the size of approximately 30-36X84 inches. I was told it was flat but lets face it , it most likely wasn't flat enough. I said I could do that size since I have a 60X120. You have to realize I was working thru a mutual friend, so I never spoke to the person that was to pay the bill. I was asked what I would charge to cut a very large tree design in the table top. I told the person $75 per hour. Now you have to realize that a lot of the time as far as designing I usually charge nothing since I like what I am doiing so in reality the total bill would not reflect what I should have charged at the hourly rate. Needless to say I was told later that I charge too much!!! All I want to know is my hourly rate out of line or do most people think I should work for free? My point being no one at ShopBot gave me my machine nor do I get electricity for free. Is this what the public expects of someone now a days?? I really didn't want to do the job but I just want to run it by you guy's. Thanks!!!

[knight_toolworks]

You just have a cheap customer. Some people think you should do it for 5.00 a hour. The cheap customers are the most demanding.
but I have done several jobs for Nike they always pay well and are always in the I need it tomorrow category. Had one of my sign guys wants me to make a 3' Nike swoosh and they did not even want to pay 40.00 to get it cut out and he was going to cover it with aluminum vinyl. I made it for myself to see if I could do a good metallic paint job I showed the guy for the hell of it and they want to but their budget only allows 60.00. this is a company that paid me 500 to make 2 mdf 10" eggs

[bruce_taylor]

price is relative to what you perform. I don't think your out of line in your pricing. I just cut a job for a local shop $25 per sheet, It took me about 4 hours to do 18 sheets. I programmed the sheets for them and after about 15 minutes I was cutting. When they picked up the parts they were very happy and I was as well, hence a win/win relationship. Some people won't be able to appreciate what you can do with a cnc or what it takes to make it happen, Don't try to work for them. homedepot sells jigsaws for them to use.

[chiloquinruss]

"homedepot sells jigsaws" Amen! I have stopped quoting hours or per hour prices. I quote the whole job. Do I get every job, no, but . . . . ;) Russ

[myxpykalix]

Here is my thinking...when you tell someone you charge $75.00/hr do you then also tell them how long a project might take to cut? My theory is they immediately see dollars signs and clock hands spinning with no definite cap on the cost of the project.
When i quote someone a price it is for a complete job, then i explain how it cuts and how long it will take to cut and exagerate the time by a few extra hours so they feel like they are getting a better deal.

If you tell someone "i'll charge you $50.00 to cut that and can do it in 5 minutes" they will feel like you are cheating them.
If you tell them "I'll charge you $50.00 to cut that and come back in 3 hours" they rationalize the cost over the 3 hours. Sometimes this is the way you need to handle it.:rolleyes:

[adrianm]

I never quote by the hour. I give a fixed price and stick to it unless the overrun is 100% the customers fault.

If it's my fault then I just take the lesser profit as the cost of the "training" course!

[bob_reda]

I used to sale real estate. We listed a persons house and actually had a sales agrement in about 3 hours. they said, you make all that commission in less than 3 hours. I replied, would you feel better if it took a year to sale your house? There is reality and preception. You know the reality and the customer has the preception.

Bob

[CNYDWW]

I just had someone contact me about table saw push sticks. I've got a set of two different sized push sticks up online. They're cut out of 5/8 particle board radius on all edges accept what contacts the material. This gentleman wanted the same price i charge for particle board but made in hardwood. Black walnut and cherry to be exact. Reason being is, he found the same exact thing on ebay out of maple. The other product wasn't even close. They were rather small compared to mine, the notch for pushing was round (looked like a half inch radius) and also very thin. I got a little aggressive and explained what it took to make my set, the differences between the products etc. etc. He even said "Welcome to capitalism and competition". I concluded that email with "Take what money you have and your capitalistic ideals as a consumer and head to walmart where you belong." From there he continued to send me emails including a link to a "hardwood supplier" on craigslist that was over an hour drive from me. This "supplier" had fair prices for rough cut, wet materials. :D I just didn't bother with the guy anymore.

Regards
Randy

[Brian Harnett]

I price by the job sometimes I take a bath others I make more than I thought.

At least the customer and I know the cost.

[kubotaman]

I could have quoted by the job but I didn't know what this customer even wanted. I was only told he wanted a tree carved into the top. Was it to be V-Carved or was it to be cut as 3D, I didn't know. There is a lot of difference when it comes to time. I felt he just wanted a real nice expert job but he wanted a cheap price. People have no conception as to what it takes to get to an end product. I have even been told, by another person, all I have to do is push a button and poof there it is! How can you do business when the customer doesn't even tell you what they want? Remember this transaction was going thru a third party.

[myxpykalix]

That was the problem, unless you get specifics it's hard to be accurate to where you both feel you are getting a good deal. I can't tell you how many times some "jackleg" comes along and tells you how he can make you a bunch of money doing a sign or whatever for a thirdparty business and wants you to make some type of sample then when you want specific info to do that they never follow thru or you make something and they never get any kind of commitment.

I've gotten so i just tell them to let me talk to the person direct, i would still give them a commission, but in order to get it right you need to talk direct to the client.....usually turns into a waste of time.:(

[dlcw]

I quote only labor and materials on every project. If I'm going to deliver/install it I add that as well. I do not talk $/hr to anyone. This opens a can of worms and everyone looses. My reality of value versus customer's perception of value.

If customers want it fast and high quality I quote them one price. If they want it cheap and high quality I tell them "can't do it - go to Walmart or the big box store". If they want it high quality but can wait for it I quote them another price. This is the type of customer I will reward with a lower price because they are willing to work with me. Some who want high quality work for free, I just tell them to wait until Christmas, maybe a friend they have can make it for them as a gift. :D

[michael_schwartz]

I will only cut for businesses that (1) know what they want. (2) have an idea of the basics, and limitations of cnc machining, and finally. (3) an understanding of what these services cost along with an adequate budget.

Otherwise, in many circumstances the general public need too much hand holding.

If you get past the initial sticker shock that comes with the price tag there is a good chance you will loose money, even if you do charge $75-100 per hour, because of the extra 3-4+ hours it can take to work with an unqualified buyer. I have run into this before where I spent 4 hours communicating by phone and email to bill out 1 hour of machine time. You have to watch out.

I am sure there is a guy on craigslist who would cut the table top with a skill saw, and burn in the tree design, with a wood burning iron, for what they would have been willing to pay.

[waterwheelman]

I only give out pricing for the whole project. It only confuses the customer to have to think about the time it will take to do the project. It's my job to think about the process and steps it will take to do the work. Most customers only want to think about how the project will look when completed and the bottom line $$.

[Ajcoholic]

I always price work out like this:

I give the materials break down, I give the labour cost - the complete figure, and my hourly rate X number of hours.

I like to educate my customers, and show exactly where the money is going, and what they are paying for.

I have yet to have any issue - sure, I dont get every job I quote but most people are actually happy to see the break down, and where exactly their $$'s are going.

For me, I have to charge $60/hour to keep my shop operational. I decided when I got my shopbot, that I will also charge the same rate per hour for machine time.

If someone tells me I charge "too much", I can explain I have a shop that cost over half a million to put together that has to be paid for, and I also like to make a decent living. Usually they understand.

Never mind the going rate around here for plumbers, electricians, and other trades like automotive make mine look cheap!

AJC

[genek]

The way i do it is time plus material x 2 if i have to do the design.. There is a design fee. Minimum of 25.00 which if i can re use the design i drop the design time to 25.00 i get the design fee up front... I charge a design fee even if i buy it. We pay for them... If i use the same design ten times each gets charged the same design fee. After the design is done run it thru the shop bot.. If it takes 10 min at 30 min... You have set up and removal,,, make sure your time is covered... I know what my overhead is each day.. That has to be meet,,, you can not give work away...stick to your guns, make a sign that reads you get what you pay for.. Pay the right price the first time... I have a 75.00 per hour fee.. I do not quote per hour... I quote per job... If they have the design i need to see it convert it and test run it to give a true price... All test runs are done at close of day. That way if it is a large job i can leave the cnc doing air cut or foam cut to make sure of price... I allow 25,00 to my cost for running a air cut on large jobs.. If they do not like my price well that that... I move on. We all need to start charging for design and set up fees... But be fair priced.

[twelchPTM]

I have even been told, by another person, all I have to do is push a button and poof there it is!

I have heard this same statement in many form pertaining to many different jobs, but none more then when talking about cnc work. The answer I give is "Your right, I just push the button and watch the machine work. But for starters I own this machine and you don't have one, and more importantly I know HOW to push the button and you don't"

[myxpykalix]

When people act like this stuff just creates itself as if by magic, you say...
yes it does and i'm the magician that can make this magical table create things by itself. So unless you know the magic words you need to pay me....

If not then use this incantation on them...
ALAKAZAM...
ALAKAZEER...
PAY ME MY MONEY...OR GET OUTTA HERE!

[donek]

Most people do not have the slightest concept of what it really takes or costs to create something. This is primarily because so many people in today's world don't work in a job that involves more than shuffling paper. Most of them don't even understand where the money comes from that pays their paycheck. In their mind, there is some rich guy with all the money and he passes it out for some arbitrary reason. They never make the connection that customers of some sort pay for their life. As a result these people thrive on cheap goods and stuff made in 3rd world countries.

Don't let the slow witted get you down. For every 100 excellent customers, you have to factor in a percentage who make your life miserable. Hopefully the percentage is small and you can easily move forward to the next guy who appreciates what you do. With time you become numb to the bad ones and focus on the the fact that you're doing what you love.

[coryatjohn]

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws

[Brian Harnett]

Unfortunately the cost of doing business is dealing with people.

Pretty much it has already been said, I do not give a quote until I have a real idea what they want, I give an overall price not hourly, start breaking it down and some will haggle you to death and then after wasting your time decide not to do it.

[chiloquinruss]

To say Yes and loose money is not a good thing.

To say No and keep your hair is a really good thing!

I have found if they are knit-picky going in it is a situation that is not going to get any better with time! Russ

[80grit]

I don't own a SB yet, but I have been building furniture for 15 years or so in my part time. I stress part time because I recognized early that it would be a struggle to make a living doing it full time. People had no clue how expensive it was to produce a product (materials, overhead, equipment, labor). Even as I continued to do it, I always felt like I was giving it away. I bet I rarely netted over $10/hr on a piece. Part of it was my fault for not quoting a higher price, but I always felt pressured to keep the price low. I just told myself that I was gaining experience. When i got married 4 years ago, I had had enough. My time had become more valuable to me, and was tired to working for nothing. Since then, I have only built things for my family.

Now that I feel like I am in a good place to purchase a SB, I am still concerned over pricing my work and transitioning into a full time CNC guy.

[jhedlund58]

I have to totally agree with Russ. If they don't like your price, let em walk down the street. At your doorstep for one reason, they can't do it there damnselves....Sometimes a fish is too small to real in... if u get my drift ahhhhhhhhhh haha!!!

[Ernie Balch]

20 years ago we would work for not much more than the cost of materials figuring we were learning and getting paid for it.

After we learned the sign business we raised our prices and didn't have to work as hard but the money was better. Now days I would rather go fishing and make nothing than work hard and lose money on a job.

[feinddj]

Can't agree more with the gist of everyone's comments. Just to add my own two cents: Most shops (non cnc) here charge at least 80 per hour. When I am asked to give an estimate I base it on my hourly rate and tell them that. Most of my clients know that it is better not to make me give them a quote because I can do it cheaper and faster than they can do it themselves and it costs less when I just charge for the time spent.
I have several clients who do argue with me over my prices, every time. I explain to them that this is my pricing and that I don't do this as a charity. The kicker? They tell me I charge to little and want to pay me more. You'll always get people who want to pay you nothing and get everything, I have something in my shop that I show those people. The door!

David

[kubotaman]

I posted this topic quite a while ago. To say the least I never looked back as far as this topic. You have to understand I live on a very small part of land aka an island. So I have had work since then and got paid for what I asked. So getting back to my original question, some people like the individual I was dealing with, wanted me to work for free but he certainly won't! Funny how that works isn't it??