Vector Drawings with evenly spaced nodes.

[SteveR]

First let me say thank you for any and all replies to this question.

I am trying to import any vector drawing into Corel 12 and generate an output drawing that has nodes on a equally spaced basis based on the level of detail in the individual areas of the vector drawing. I need to export that vector drawing as a .dxf or .eps that I can use in ArtCam. Is this something that Corel 12 is capable of doing? Nothing I have tried has worked well, so I won't muddy the waters by throwing out what I have done. I have used Corel 7,9, and 12 and have used Corel since 2001. I currently use Corel 12 only so if one of the older versions will do what I need please advise. Using Win XP with a p4 and 2 gb. of ram.

Some background: I have added a modification to my PRT Shopbot to make it do Tin Punch, and need the vector drawings to allow me to make accurate punches. I will need to break the drawing into sections, so I can add more nodes where more detail is needed and fewer nodes where less detail is needed. All the hardware is in place, and the modification done to the ArtCam post processor to allow proper code to be generated for the machine.

My ultimate goal is to photograph a subject, vectorize and ultimately make a tin punch of scene, person, or thing.

Thanks again for any help you may be able to offer.

Steve

[steve_g]

Neat idea!

Some drawing programs have a "divide" command... but it would be one vector at a time. PartWorks /Aspire has the "fit curves" command that you can use backwards from how we normally use it, but that doesn't work on straight lines. (you can play with the tolerance number to adjust spacing). Hope you find something that works!

SG

[bob_s]

Could you use evenly spaced small circles? and then use the center of each circle for your punch or drill target?
A lot of programs have that capability if you define the spacing in a step and repeat. Possibly set up a section of evenly defined circles and then distribute them along a curve. I believe AI CS4 can do that so Corel probably can do a distribute along a curve as well but I have never tried it.

[SteveR]

Thanks for the response...

1st...Steve, I see from your response you have already figured out what the big issue with the software part of this project is...the straight lines in a vector drawing. That is why I am asking for ideas. Here is what I have tried in Corel...I changed the solid vector lines to broken lines, and exported the file as a .dxf thinking that would give me individual points that I could then set as points to be selected as vector nodes. Corel exports the file with no problem but the straight lines in the original file has (no nodes assigned) so ArtCam sees the info that way. Combining the broken lines assigned in Corel causes it to crash most of the time before it can finish the conversion. Very simple vector files will work, but any file with enough info to make a good quality punch file is a no go with this method unless there is a way around the crash. I have tried InkScape..it allows selection and adding of nodes but also has repeat crashes. I suppose I may have setup issues; but both programs work fine except when using them for this project. I suspect that I may need more computing power than what I have, but I use my computer for running a laser and generating cut files for the bot. I don't want to go through a change there unless there is no way around it.

I welcome any other thoughts you may have....

[SteveR]

Bob, Thanks for the response..I am using the "select all vector nodes" in the drill program in ArtCam which does exactly what you refer to. I actually need to assign nodes before I get to this step in the process. The level of detail needs to be based on the size of the individual parts of the vector drawing, something that would be too labor intensive to do manually and probably would not "look in proportion" if done by hand. I have looked at using a "pen and tablet" generated file based on manually tracing a photo or line drawing but that too seems not to be a good option.

Thank You for your response, I appreciate any other info you may be able to offer.

Added Picture to show what I am trying to do.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15441&stc=1&d=1337911536

[Brady Watson]

My approach would be to 'paste object along curve' and draw your circle the size you want it to be - then see how the 'spacing' with 'make spacing even' option works out for you. It is a much more reliable way to do what you want than trying to space out nodes.

-B

[SteveR]

Thanks for the tip Brady, I will spend some time working with your method. Give me a few days and I will re-post the results.

Appreciate your help...

Steve :)

[Brady Watson]

This might help...

-B

[SteveR]

Thanks Brady, I am already there...your tip put me on the mark with what I needed to do. I experimented with 4 different vector files and had good results with all of them using your method. My next hurdle will be vectorizing photos and turning the results into .dxf files. I may have to ask for advice again if you and others don't mind. I usually can find an answer for most of the problems I encounter but this was sort of out of the ordinary.

My Thanks Again to You, Steve, and Bob...I will post a some of items I do on the bot in a few days.

[steve_g]

Steve
I was working along the same path... when I tried that method on vectorized photos I had to use a circle size of .001 to avoid overlapping circles. you can't see the resulting circles, but you can toolpath them! I had to tell it to use an initial depth of .06 to be able to render it.

SG

[robtown]

In corel you can use the Blend tool to do this.

[SteveR]

Steve, Rod... Thanks for taking the time to help with this problem. I believe I am now on the right path from the software point of view for this portion of my project. I appreciate all the information I have been able to find on this forum for the past 10 years that I have had my Shopbot. I have made a lot of changes to the original machine and continue to try to improve what I have. Most of the information has been easily found and readily available to everyone...that is "priceless" to coin a phrase.

[SteveR]

After several tries I have the first photo, not exactly what I wanted or expect to accomplish, but well enough to share. Ready made clip art works better, things like flowers or character drawn persons. That led me down this path, grandson may not appreciate it too much though. :)

[steve_g]

Steve

I'm impressed!

SG

[SteveR]

Thanks Steve...

[myxpykalix]

that actually looks really good. How much manual node work did you have to do to get those results? What looks cool is where it was punched it made the cheek area puff up some to form a natural feature. I'm impressed!:D

[myxpykalix]

Steve,
Now that i see what you are trying to do it reminds me of a app that a guy made to turn pictures into "drill holes" for lack of a better description and i tried to describe the author before to get better info and I think his first name was Ari. Bill palumbo came up with the guy and the app but i can't recall.

The point being that maybe it would be easier to use that app to create the file you want of a picture then just delete all the extraneous vectors you didn't want.:confused:

[SteveR]

Hello Jack,

Thanks for the reply, there were several steps to get what I have in the punch photo. First I changed the photo to black and white and edited out all the info I didn't want Corel to trace. I then used the traced photo and Corel Draw to give me a template to add back any info that was needed to give me what the final punch file would need. I then exported the vectors (.dxf) into ArtCam and added .020 circles to the vectors spaced at .080 and .050 intervals (my thanks again to Brady for that tip). A drill tool file in ArtCam was then saved through a modified post processor to get the actual .sbp file.
Sort of like going around the world to get to town but it worked. I would be interested in looking at the software you spoke of, should I contact Bill directly or just wait for a post from him? Thanks again for the kind words..

[steve_g]

Steve
I'm curious... how much punch time was involved in your grandson's image?

SG

[rcnewcomb]

You might consider playing around with HalfToner (http://jasondorie.com/page_cnc.html) written by Jason Dorie. I've been playing around with it but not cut anything yet.

It takes a bitmap image and generates circle vectors. You control the spacing of the circles and their diameters. It can generate G code directly or a DXF file that you could play with in another program.

Up close the preview doesn't look like much but from across the room it turns into a recognizable image. I've attached a preview from Vcarve and the DXF has been Zipped and uploaded for your review.

[SteveR]

Hey Steve,

That file took about 20 minutes to punch out, it was about 250 kb. in size, there are no z moves but the way it posts for the machine to work I had to make a custom cut call file. That slows it down even with a fast x,y speed. But considering there were about 5000 punches that's not too bad.

SR

[myxpykalix]

I went back thru all of Bills post for the last year but couldn't find it. He's pretty good about remembering these things, and i'm not. I just recall i think the guys........ Ari Krupnik it just came to me!!! Thats weird how that happens

http://www.lib.aero/~ari/mosaics/

[steve_g]

Steve
Is there a market for tin punchings? Custom pie safe panels? lamp shades? Just wondering what market you were going after. Thanks!

SG

[SteveR]

Thank You Randall for posting the link for me, that may be what I need to automate this process. It is labor intensive, but I have a lot of experience with Corel because of the laser application I use it for. The punch picture I posted took me about an hour to get ready to punch. I have been working with this idea for about a month from the initial thought to punching tin/ alum. The cost of the hardware was less that $50 to modify the machine, so I don't have a lot in that part.

With the help I am getting from you guys on the forum I may be able to make some different Christmas presents this year. Wood's good but metal makes it different, at least until I give a few presents away.

Thanks again, I will post what the results of the HalfToner application are; just give me a few days.

SR

[SteveR]

Hello Steve, Right now I really have not looked at finding a market for the idea. I just wanted to see what could be done. I did a search for this type of "stuff" and found very little of it listed on the internet. All that I did find was hand made and so I thought maybe I could make some stuff for my family and friends, I like artistic stuff so that is where I thought I would focus my attention.

If anyone is interested in the community (Shopbot Forum) I would share what I know. It is all pretty simple to do mechanically.

SR

[rcnewcomb]

Just to inspire the metal workers here, the image below is from the Cathedral of Christ in Oakland, California. The image at the front is made up of sheet metal with holes drilled in it. In person the image looks almost 3D.

A larger photo is available at this link: ->Link (http://www.pathosphotography.com/Blog/Favorites/i-CpfVkFG/0/X2/Oakland-Cathedral-of-Christ-X2.jpg)
http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2008/09/12/mn-cathedral13_p_0499111871.jpg

[billp]

Steve,
Here's a link which will show you what Ari was doing- http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14230&highlight=Krupnik

[SteveR]

Thanks Bill, I will look at what he has done.

SR

[SteveR]

Thanks to all for the info you have provided...I will post observations in a few days as to what I figure out.

SR

[myxpykalix]

Steve,
I have a punched copper picture i made. Although this was made some 45 years ago and made by hand punching each dot with a hammer and chisel it looks pretty good for a 15 year old kid. This is still hanging on Mom's wall. She still has the napkin holder and letter tray and epoxy paperweight with the kennedy half dollar embedded in it along with other things her little boy made, sound familiar?:D

[SteveR]

Hey Jack, you are giving your age away there...

That is pretty impressive piece, I like the added color. I hope to graduate to colors later.

Just to let everyone know where I am in the process...

I looked at the example Ari did that Bill P. and you pointed me to, his method is interesting and may help me when punching deep holes that a background would show through. I appreciate the tip.

I downloaded and did a test with the HalfToner application. My take at the present is that it generates too much information. If I can figure a way to remove excess stuff so it only generates code for what I want to punch it could be very useful.

I also tried the application Bill Young has developed VBit Artist, it also generates a lot of code and doesn't appear to be what is needed. If the application could be modified to just put circles on the subject and not on the entire picture then it would work very well. An application that would only use the black detail in a file is what I believe would work best. A better version would allow selection of several different colors, one at a time like a plotter does. The individual colors could then be assigned different spacings for more or less detail (punches) as needed. That is what I am doing now manually, by using Corel and ArtCam. Note: More detail = smaller circles without overlap for cleaner detail in the final piece.

I am going to try 2 more punch files today one with more facial and hair detail, and another with a closeup of just the head punched out. I am also going to punch out one file on paper to see how that works, Steve G. put me on that thought with his post. I will post pictures later.

Thanks for the help... :)

SR

[rcnewcomb]

My take at the present is that it generates too much information. If I can figure a way to remove excess stuff so it only generates code for what I want to punch it could be very useful.
Use photo editing software to mask out the background to either black or white. Make sure the minimum hole size is set to something larger than zero.

[myxpykalix]

why couldn't you use some photo editing software with certain filters to make line drawings of your photos then vectorize the line drawings?

[SteveR]

Hello Randall, to respond to your thought; I tried removing all the background with only the stuff I wanted to punch and ran that through HalfTone, it still generates circles for the entire photo. If I were to punch that file it would just be a completely covered punch out with nothing showing but holes. The modification I have made to the bot does not allow any Z moves so there is no way to determine what has been punched in the final piece. I like the idea of rastering the punches, but as yet haven't figured out how to do that.

[SteveR]

Hey Jack, I am using the photo copy filter in Adobe for the initial work, moving the file to Corel saving it as a jpg, opening it in Corel Trace & doing a trace. Reopening the file in Corel Draw doing any editing I need to then saving the file as a dxf for using in ArtCam. It takes about an hour to get a punch file this way. I am still looking at how I can make the process faster, but to get clean vectors that ArtCam doesn't fuss about this is what I have found works best. I am looking at upgrading to the newest version of Draw, but if I do I will also need a new computer, don't want to do either.

Thanks for the help...this has been an adventure so far.

Steve

[myxpykalix]

Sometimes there is no magic bullet program that will do all you want in one step and you might have to settle for doing it that way. At this point since you aren't deluged with orders and have to pump 50 out a day the only one who is inconvienenced by this pace is you!:D
I even tried running it thru inkscape to trace the bitmap but did not look at any of the features or filters that you may have been able to use so you might check out www.inkscape.org . If it does more i suspect just learning the pgm may take away any time savings.....:eek:

[myxpykalix]

I'm not sure if i can attach it here, if not email me and i'll send it to you. It is a pdf of a pgm called bmp2cnc. I found it way back in a folder from 2007. I didn't read it thoroughly but it might do something for you.

won't attach it is about 2 megs

[myxpykalix]

something else i came across that may or may not help:
http://freedownload888.blogspot.com/2011/02/convert-photo-to-pencil-sketch-651.html