Civil War Chair

[phil_o]

The latest issue of Woodworker's Journal has an article with plans for a Civil War Chair. This is a folding chair that looks like a nice piece of furniture and is comfortable. I made one out of cherry. I decided to use my Shopbot for the mortises on the curved back pieces for accuracy and perfect alignment.
I also did the upper back concave curve on the Shopbot so I could add the "1862" to the part. I really like the chair. When I make another one I will do the other parts on the Shopbot too.
The picture shows the chair ready for the cloth seat.

Phil

[steve_g]

Phil:
I saw those plans also and was intrigued... I plan to make a "modern" version out of Baltic birch ply. What are you going to use for the seat material?

SG

P.S. Oh, and nice job!

[genek]

Would you sale or share the plans... I have a hatfield and mccoy run going on in my area... The chamber of tourism is starving for items..could make this as a period chair... The feud started partly over the civil war.
Would need it in dxf file.

[phil_o]

Steve,
thanks for the compliment. My wife has fairly heavy woven material that I think will work well.
Gene,
the plans are not mine to share, they are in the latest issue of Woodworker's journal. Also, the only parts I did on the Bot are the curved back parts.

Phil

[steve_g]

"the plans are not mine to share, they are in the latest issue of Woodworker's journal"


Interesting... The author copied an antique chair 200 + years old and I didn't see a copyright claim in the article. He published them with the intent that copies would be made! When I get my files together I'll not have any compunction about sharing...

SG

[Doug Smith]

Steve,

I am of the conclusion that you have a cavalier attitude towards authors’ work. I am specifically referring to the hard work put into publishing a copyrighted magazine, from which these authors/editors earn their living.

You stated, “The author copied an antique chair 200 + years old” This is correct, and the plans derived are his work.

You stated,” and I didn't see a copyright claim in the article.” The magazine Woodworkers Journal is copyrighted.

You stated, “When I get my files together I'll not have any compunction about sharing...” Here is an abbreviated definition of compunction from Dictionary.com “a feeling of uneasiness or anxiety of the conscience caused by regret for doing wrong…” Phil introduced the thought of doing wrong by saying the plans were not his to share, and then pointing to the resource from which to purchase the plans. The fact that there is a smell test involved, that you claim you will choose to ignore, leads me to the conclusion stated above.

You stated, “He published them with the intent that copies would be made!” If you are referring to copies of the chair, then yes that would be true. If you are referring to copies of the plan, to be disseminated by you, then I would reach the conclusion that you are WAY out of bounds, and that your sense of compunction is adrift.

Here is a quote from Rob Johnstone –Editor in Chief of Woodworkers Journal that I discovered on the internet. Rob Johnstone: "Speaking for the Woodworker's Journal, if you build one or a hundred of our projects, feel free to sell them. If I catch you selling our plans & hoo-boy, then you are in trouble!"

I am not saying that you have scheme to sell someone else’s plans. I’m saying that I think you should feel compunction about sharing, and should not distribute others’ hard work, in this particular case A.J. Hamler’s copyrighted plan.

Doug

[SterlingDevelop]

Are CNC electronic cut files considered the same as plans? I did not interpret Steve's post the way I think that you did, but I could be mistaken.

I'm asking out of ignorance - I don't know the answer.


Brent Green
http://www.dcscnc.com

[steve_g]

Doug

Thank you for your thoughtful, well reasoned response to my post. I really thought someone would jump all over me a lot sooner!

You are correct that the entire magazine is copyrighted and I stand corrected.

I still feel that the author didn't claim any originality in his work, what was original was his putting pen to paper... and documenting the design. I can respect that. When I provide a digital file of the chair it will be a compilation of this and other research I have and will be doing. It will also include some actual original Ideas of my own.

Your quote by Rob Johnstone actually encouraged me to proceed with the idea as I will not be selling the plan but offer them freely on the bot forum.

I can argue either way if the DXF files are the same as printed plans... What they will not include is an interesting write up with photos for a DIY assembly manual.

Doug... I Respect your input and wonder if you still feel the same way after my explanation.
Respectfully

SG

[bleeth]

An exact copy in CAD of plans from someone else could be a pretty gray area. I have seen websites with plans that are not CAD and the authors have stated that if someone wishes to do the plans in CAD they are welcome to as long as they have purchased the right to use it but they were not free to distribute their CADS.
Steve mentioned he plans on making some changes.

It gets down to a couple of things. If this design was originally someone elses and their copywrite/patent expired then it is open to the public and should someone choose to publish it they do not have right to restrict, just as many different publishers publish old masters books that are now not covered by copywrite. You can also, for example, build furniture like Stickley did and to the same dimensions as his without fear but you can't call it Stickley.

If you use someone elses plans as a basis for a design and change it sufficiently then you are also not infringing. I learned this one early in my boat building career when many companies in South Florida were freely admitting to taking a mold off someone elses hull and changing 5 points of the design and successfully avoided having action brought against them.

[Doug Smith]

Brenton,

You asked” Are CNC electronic cut files considered the same as plans?” There is an article in Woodworkers Journal that contains plans to build a "Civil War Folding Chair". This particular article has curved lines and dimensions representing a labeled part (i.e. backrest, outer leg, etc. These parts are also assigned a number, relating to a material list.) The curved parts are juxtaposed upon a different colored rectangle representing a piece of wood, which is furthered juxtaposed upon a grid with a scale. These are the plans, with which one could build this chair as the author has drawn.

So, if one was to take this work, (curved lines on a printed page) and using the provided grid, transformed them into curved lines on a CAD page, then I would have to answer your question with a yes.

However, there is the underlying portion of this that I believe is crucial. I will start off by saying that I have a purchased copy ( a subscription) of the magazine. I therefore have read the article, and have access to the printed plans. I think that distributing unauthorized/potentially illegal copies of the plan to people that have not ponied up the paltry sum of $5.99 for their own issue is very disrespectful of the author and editors means of making a living.

Doug

[Doug Smith]

Steve,

It may be of interest to know that the author of the magazine article in Woodworkers Journal has also authored a book titled “Civil War Woodworking: 17 Authentic projects for Woodworkers and Reenactors” There is a schedule for the publication of “Civil War Woodworking—Volume II” later this year.

You state,” When I provide a digital file of the chair it will be a compilation of this and other research I have and will be doing.” I would think that any research done through pictures of the era that are in the public domain, would be akin to what the author did in his research for the two above mentioned volumes. I would also think that the fruits of author Hamler’s research efforts would not be in the public domain.

You state, “Your quote by Rob Johnstone actually encouraged me to proceed with the idea as I will not be selling the plan but offer them freely on the bot forum.” I had hoped that the quote from Rob Johnstone would not get all wrapped around the word sell. Here is the way I see this. Woodworkers Journal distributes plans for a fee. The fee is the cost of the magazine, and/or their online store. For a person to take it upon themselves to distribute the plans, regardless of payment, derives Woodworkers Journal a chance to sell them…and in doing so earning their living.

If in fact research of period era furniture is in the offing, than there is a person who might be considered an expert, as documented by published volumes of his work. Might you considering networking with him, potentially finding ways to publish your own work at your own discretion?

http://www.ajhamler.com/home

Doug

[A.J. Hamler]

Hi Guys...

First, fantastic job on the chair, Phil! I always get a kick out of seeing the results of a project that I've written. Keep up the good work.

Now, if I can wade in a bit on the chair project itself and the issues of copyright. It's a nebulous area open to a lot of interpretation and contains loads of gray areas. After decades in publishing, I barely understand the issues. This will probably get long.

I should correct first that the original chair used as the basis of the project wasn't 200 years old, but more like 150 or so. I'd have to really do some more digging, but I'm pretty sure that style of chair didn't become popular till the mid-19th century.

The word "copy" is a tough one. When building a piece of furniture just like an old one, it's generally considered a reproduction and not a copy. Yeah, it's semantics, I know. In any event, I consider my chair a reproduction. And, since I changed some key elements (refined the arm curvature, changed the backrest design, and used full 1" stock instead of the original's 7/8" stock which subtly change a few dimensions), it's not a direct copy.

As to the rights involved for the published article itself, it appears in a copyrighted publication, Woodworker's Journal. Now, that copyright protects the presentation of the project as published -- the text and how it's written, all photography, the layout, drawings, etc. To literally copy it -- that is, to run the pages through a Xerox -- is illegal for any purpose but your own personal use without permission from Woodworker's Journal. If you want to photocopy it for your archive, that's fine. Or if you want to photocopy the drawings and blow them up to life-size for your own use, again that's fine. Interestingly, I have little say in this, since it's copying the published presentation of my project that we're talking about here, and Woodworker's Journal has those rights. (In spite of that, I have no problem at all with it, since it's fair use.)

However, if you want to take sections of text, photos or other stuff out of the article, and use them in such a way that infringes the copyright holder's ability to profit from the original, that's a whole 'nother thing. Woodworker's Journal is in business, and part of that business is to sell copies of that published project. If you photocopy it and sell it, you just took money out of their pocket. For that matter, if you photocopy it and give the copy free to a friend, that friend would not purchase the original, again depriving Woodworker's Journal of income. They wouldn't like that.

What are my rights here? Glad you asked. I retain the creative rights to my article, as well as my instructions on how to build the chair, as well as all the photos. Since the chair is my reproduction of an antique, there are no literal design rights involved with the chair itself. If you want to build 'em and sell 'em, that's fine. Be nice if you gave me credit somewhere along the way, but legally speaking nothing says you have to. You can even claim that you did all the research yourself and made all the changes -- it'd be a lie, but it's not illegal to do so. (I mention this for a reason, which I'll expand upon in a second.) If you want to make all the parts as a kit and sell it, that's OK, too. But if you include instructions that use the original text I created without my permission, that's not legal. Same thing with any of the photos I created. You would need to create your own text and take your own step-by-step photos.

I go to, and take part in, lots of Civil War reenactments, at which vendors called "sutlers" offer all manner of things for sale -- uniforms, equipment, various gear and accessories. My wife and I attended a reenactment last summer just to check it out; in other words, I wasn't in uniform and was just being a spectator. One sutler was selling plans for a five-board bench identical to the one in my book, "Civil War Woodworking." He made no effort to change a thing, although he did take my original plans and patterns and create a CAD printout. Now, since this bench is a design that's been around for centuries, no copyright infringement was involved. He did claim the design was his own, based on his own research (and even had the nerve to put a notice on the plans that "his" design could not be copied!). Although that made my blood pressure rise a bit, it's not illegal at all. However, he also went so far as to photocopy the finished bench from my book (right off the cover, no less!), and printed it on his plans. Now that is a clear-cut copyright violation. I meant to contact him with a strong cease-and-desist demand, but never got around to it. I don't think he sells a lot of them, and most small sutlers who do this sort of thing mostly as a small source of additional income beyond their real job just don't make much at it. Generally speaking, after my blood pressure came back down to normal I decided to let it slide for the good of the reenacting hobby.

Now, as to you guys making computer code for CNC and distributing it, that really gets into that gray area I and one of the other posters mentioned. I just don't know what the legalities are there. The chair itself, as I noted, is a reproduction of an old antique, so that's not an issue per se. But if you created your code from the drawings published in Woodworker's Journal, and then distribute them, there might be an issue. But that would be between you and them.

*whew* Now all that said, if any of you want my original drawings to use for creating code, I'm happy to provide them. Not sure how to post attachments here -- this is my first post on the forum -- but once I figure out how I'd be happy to post a PDF of the full-size drawings I provided to Woodworker's Journal and you guys can have fun with them. (Be nice if you bought the issue of Woodworker's Journal, though... <g>)

A.J.

[Doug Smith]

Thanks for posting A.J.

I appreciate your permission to use your original drawings. I also enjoyed your article, as I am somewhat of a civil war buff. It looks like your book, which I just discovered, would be thoroughly interesting as well.

And welcome to the CNC world of ShopBot's forum.

Doug

[steve_g]

SG

Mr. Hamler
Thank you for taking the time to post on this active interesting forum... I know you took time out of your day to do so and I appreciate it! As I perhaps poorly said earlier, my intention was to provide a digital file to forum members of the key profiles inspired by your article and a Google image search of "Civil war officers chair". That search brought up 3,820,000 images to look at! I think I understand from your post that this would not offend you, especially if I referenced your article for assembly suggestions?

This whole topic of copyrights intrigues me... When are you "copying" and when are you "inspired by"? There is a fellow online who has plans for a wood combination lock... a fun exercise in mechanics. With his clear explanation of the mechanics involved, I modified the design to be "programmable" , use multiple combinations, and open up to four different compartments with different combinations for each compartment. When does the design become unique enough to be called my own?

Thanks again!

SG

[phil_o]

WOW! I never anticipated that posting pictures of the chair I made from AJ's plans would generate the discussion it has become. I'm surprised and pleased that AJ has become involved. I'm pleased to "meet" you AJ and thank you for the research, article and plans for a truly unique chair. I want to locate the books you've written on Civil War furniture and hopefully find more intriguing projects to build.
When I stated that the plans are not mine to share it was out of respect for AJ and the Woodworker's Journal. There have been numerous discussions on this forum and on the Vectric forum. I use Aspire for my CNC design software. I know this is a grey area but I feel that it is not my place to copy someones work without their permission, legal or not. For $5.99 anyone can buy the magazine and build the chair and more.

Phil

[genek]

aj would be willing to pay for the plans... I AM IN A AREA WHERE THE HATFIELD AND MCCOYS HAD A FEUD. (I ACTUALLY GREW UP IN THAT AREA AND MY GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER WAS THE JAILER DURING THAT TIME.) THE FEUD STARTED PARTLY OFVER THE CIVIL WAR. BUT ANY WAY THE REASON I ASKED FOR THE PLANS WAS THE TOURISM OFFICES IN BOTH STATE'S ARE STARVING FOR ITEMS TO BE MADE IN THAT TIME FRAME.. I THOUGHT THE GENTELMAN WHO POSTED THE PICTURES HAD DRAWN THEM FREE HAND AND NOT TRACED. I HAD ASKED IF HE WOULD SHARE OR SALE THE PLANS TO ME TO MAKE.

I RESPECT PEOPLES COPY RIGHTS I HAVE A VERY CLOSE FRIEND WHO DESIGNS ITEMS FOR THE LASERS THAT I USE ALL THE TIME...
I WOULD LOVE TO SEE ALL OF THE ITEMS YOU DESIGNED FOR THAT PERIOD OF TIME AND TO BUY THE DRAWING.'
MY NORMAL E-MAIL IS EKING1953@YAHOO.COM

[phil_o]

Gene,

since I posted the pictures of the chair I have been working on digitizing the profiles of the chair parts. With AJ's permission I will send the files to you.
I have not completed the work on the files yet but they should be done fairly soon.

AJ,

I don't know if permission from WWJ will be necessary for me to share the files.
How can we find out?

Phil

[steve_g]

A little research into "campaign chairs" has been fun and reveling... for example, the "Patio Chair" from the ShopBot web site was first published in 1920 as a Boy Scout project! One image took me to a re-enactors web site where the gentleman sitting in the chair was criticized because "only officers could sit" (I guess everyone else had to stand all day) further searches for "Civil war officers" (after all, they are the ones sitting) showed that many Civil war chairs were closer to what we would call a "directors" chair today. It appears that to be truly accurate you should sit on a stump! No one "manufactured" Civil war officers chairs as such... Johnny just took the patio furniture with him. That made another interesting search... patio furniture of the 1850s. Folding wooden chairs have always been in vogue!

SG

[A.J. Hamler]

I tried to post a full-size PDF of my original chair patterns, but the size of the file exceeds what the forum allows for attachments. Sorry guys.

Is there someplace else here on the forum where I can upload the file as something the rest of you can download?

A.J.

[A.J. Hamler]

Steve... Actually, anyone was allowed to sit, but only officers had chairs. Privates carried everything they had on their own backs, and would never have carried something to sit on. In fact, they were notorious for dumping more essential gear as they hiked simply because it was all too heavy. (They'd claim later they "lost" it and request another from the quartermaster.) The officers, on the other hand, often had very nice tents with more furniture than you might imagine -- even wooden floors! -- that was all carried on wagons and pack trains.

By the way, that "Boy Scout" chair you mentioned is a particular sore spot for authentic reenactors like myself. It simply didn't exist in the 19th century, much less the 1860s. However, non-authentic reenactors love those things to death.

A.J.

[steve_g]

AJ

As far as for file size limitations... I personally use Google Drive and I know others use Drop Box and other sites that a link can be posted for.

I made several versions of that patio chair but cooled toward them when the design proved a finger pincher for my grand children!

SG

[phil_o]

There are free online PDF to DXF converters. I don't know if the file will be small enough in DXF. It may be worth a shot
http://www.pdftodxf.com/

Phil

[steve_g]

Phil
Can you or anyone else who has a physical version of this chair verify a dimension please? I need to know the center to center dimension of the seat stretchers when opened. I'm working on a "link" seat version rather than cloth. My calculations show it to be 14.5"

Thanks

SG

[phil_o]

Steve,

As I understand the explanation in the plans the outside dimension of the stretchers is 14 1/2". AJ does not give a center to center dimension.
Hope this helps.

Phil

[A.J. Hamler]

OK, I think I have the Dropbox thing figured out. (I've had Dropbox on my machine for ages, but use it so rarely I always have to read the directions every time I use it.) This should be a direction link to a full-size PDF of my original chair patterns----

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/54654246/Officers%20chair%20drawings.pdf

Note that on the drawing I've placed reference marks at 6" intervals for correct sizing when printing out. And for those who haven't yet seen the chair, I'll attach some image links below as well.

Have fun.

A.J.

======================

Here's the chair in its upright position...

http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr355/ajhamler/chairopenlo-res.jpg


... and folded down for carrying and storage.

http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr355/ajhamler/chairfoldedlo-res.jpg


Here's an in-progress shot with my repro next to the original.

http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr355/ajhamler/Chaircomparisonlo-res.jpg

[Doug Smith]

A.J.,

Thanks for your excellent follow through, and access to your original drawings. That worked very well.

Doug

[phil_o]

The chair is finished. This shows the chair with the cloth seat. This is a very comfortable, lighttweight chair.

[steve_g]

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8GtiBWUjRyRVVdXd2xfd2pVclk (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8GtiBWUjRyRVVdXd2xfd2pVclk)

Here is a link to a .crv file I created from A. J. Hamlers original PDF of the Civil war campaign chair. I have created vectors on top of his drawings. I am providing them in this format as it includes the original PDF converted to a bitmap and imported into the latest version of PartWorks. This will allow anyone to tweak the vectors as they may see fit with out having to recreate the entire project. You should refer to the Magazine article for assemble help. You will also find some random untried messing around I was working on. One version was trying to make it look more like the bentwood models popular at the time and an idea I want to try involving making the seat out of "links" rather than cloth... totally not period authentic.

Please let me know if the file will not open... Doug was unable to open it, but it works well on this end.

SG

P.S. the file will not open in the Google preview window as Google doesn't have a clue what a .crv file is... you must download it...

[Doug Smith]

Steve,

Your "ps" was the clue I needed...to download. I got the message that "...unable to generate a view...", so I shrugged and went elsewhere.

I would suggest going to the upper left, click File, and then click download. Or Ctrl + S

Doug