Customer from...New Jersey, a cautionary and confessionary tale

[GioAttisano]

I’ve just had the worst client experience in my thirty year woodworking career, by a factor of at least 10.

A guy commissioned me to make a case for an antique miniature rifle. He contacted me first about 8 months ago. He didn’t really know anything about woodworking, and was simply looking for something the right size, with an engraved logo, and some sort of compartment to hold the gun and a site. He’d call every month or so, and gradually as I introduced him to new ideas he became interested in an ebony inlay in a nice bookmatched figured walnut top (rather than an engraving), a dovetailed, lockable case, and a routed and flocked French fitted-like interior, rather than some simple dividers. The quoted price with these changes went doubled the cost of the box. It was clear he was stretching himself, but I didn’t hard sell anything, and he seemed really excited about it. And I know, my quoted price is about half to a third of what I should be charging for this sort of work. Times are hard, and work is scarce.

As I was getting ready to make the box he contacted me asking if I could incorporate two lidded compartments into the insert, and asked for a custom colored flock ( I offer black or green). I told him I could do these things, and didn’t mention a price increase.

After I completed the box, but before I started the insert, I emailed photos of the case, which I thought was one of the most beautiful things I’d ever made. I also explained that the compartments weren’t part of our original deal, nor was the custom colored flock. I’d already ordered the flock, so I told him I’d give him the custom flock even if he didn’t approve a request for an additional fee for the changes, but I would only do the compartments if he agreed to an additional fee. He agreed to this, but in retrospect I think that’s when things started heading south. He had pretty close to no reaction to the photos of what I thought was one of the most beautiful things I’ve ever made, and exactly what I thought he wanted….

I made a mistake when I made the insert. I thought I would get good vectors by taking a photograph carefully centered above the template he sent me. To cover myself I offset this in about .25" but it turned out that my photo distorted the perspective, and I needed to enlarge one area near the trigger to get the template to fit in my recess. Since I had only the template and a few thickness measurements, not the actual item, my intention was to oversize the recess, carving the periphery with a ballnose bit so it had a nice radius into its bottom. I made a judgement call to go with the insert with the repair.

Well the guy called after receiving the box, and he was very upset. Mostly he complained about the recess being oversized, and not following the contours of the rifle. But he also complained that the inlay didn’t feel smooth to him. He didn’t have a good word to say. I told him the only thing I could do is to remake the insert from scratch, and it would be hours of work, and I felt he was getting a lot for his money as it was. I later wrote him, "I'd ask you to live with your case for awhile --see how others react to it. Let it become part of your home. Try to see the 98% full glass instead of focusing on the 2% that's, in your eyes, empty. If it still bothers you in a couple weeks we'll figure out how to make it right." He emailed me photos of the gun in its box. It looked a little worse than I would have expected it to, and oddly, the photos never showed the entire gun at a time, as if this 20" gun were a panoramic mountain landscape you couldn’t catch in a single photo.

Well in the couple weeks he worked himself into a frenzy. He then wrote a really nasty note telling me "I did show the work to others, as you also suggested, to see "how others react to it", and the descriptions of the insert ranged from "crude" to "amateurish."". As to my claim that he was getting a lot for his money he told me "Your quoted price was comparable to other craftsmen in my area."

So then I did the thing I really shouldn’t have done. I offered him his money back. I also offered to repair the insert for $200, and lastly I wrote :
I'm willing to entertain any other course of action you suggest.
　
The next day, yesterday, I get an email:
　
Al,
I am returning the box for a full refund. The box was mailed today via UPS, insured. You should receive it tomorrow 7/19. The package will need to be signed for.
Tracking # 1z………134.
Please notify me when my Discover credit card is refunded in full.

　
I know the box violates copyright, though I did twice ask to purchase a one time license from the holder and received no reply.

Lessons:
1)Don’t underbid work. Really hard not to in this economy, but this was a good lesson.
2)Always fix your mistakes.
3) Don’t offer custom fitting without the actual object or 3d replica in hand.
4) Never offer a custom customer their money back. This guy’s capacity for being an reviled body part greatly exceeded my imagination for how great an reviled bodypart someone could be.
5) Doing business entails risk, and sometimes things will go wrong.
　
　

[MogulTx]

Wow! NICE box for the rifle.

What a shame that he rejected it. I hope you put pictures of it into your web site and any promotional literature you have...

You need to do more of these- and this one will help you to really sell the idea. Don't bother to include pics of the rifle in the case. You already have learned what you can from that. And if you can give the customer a snug fit around the object with a couple of finger insert points at logical places, I think it would go over really well!

And Yes. You were bad to include the mfr's logo into the design. You should get permission for those sorts of things... Ten minutes in time out for you.

[CNYDWW]

Gun cases are a tricky situation. On something like this you're relying on someone else to get you the pattern. I've made several gun cases but only as gifts or personal use. Unfortunately i no longer own the cases i made for myself. They've been sold with the rifles. (sore subject) You really want a simple cut or pocket for the rifle and accessories, no 3d and extra deep. You also want to inlay two layers of foam. First being at least 1/2" bellow the rifle then a corresponding layer that can traced on, removed , cut and reinserted. On the inside of the lid add another pocket with the foam in there as well that will correspond with the rifle as well. A local gunsmith can cut the foam to the rifle if they don't want to do it themselves and simply tuck some velvet on and around the foam to dress it up a bit. You can find pictures of original cases that were form fitted to the rifle. That kind of hand work takes a lot of time if you can imagine. If you want it even simpler, just divide the box and inlay the layers of the foam so the customer or gunsmith can cut it themselves. Too much custom and detail seams to be the culprit.

Regards
Randy

[tlempicke]

Beautiful piece of work. I am sure you can sell it to someone else. I would bet the guy "Allowed" a bit so that the rifle would fit loosley and overdid it. Too bad about the logo, that thing would sell in a heartbeat on E Bay but I don't think I would put it on there if I were you.

[twelchPTM]

beautiful box. yank the insert, line it with cedar and keep your stogies in it.

[GioAttisano]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

[Brady Watson]

As sticky as this situation may be, it is not without real value for you to learn from. Communication is of the utmost importance - which means, the customer should be getting screenshots and digital pics of what you are doing, so he can effectively sign off on them via email. Emails are admissible in a court of law, BTW.

I think many of us can get tunnel-visioned on certain projects, especially those that are a big deal to us or ones we're taking on to expand our business and abilities - usually ones that stretch our current skills a bit as we venture into uncharted territory. It is important for us to step back once in a while to see where we are going and to make sure that everything is on point with the big picture of the project. We can sometimes get so focused in that we lose sight of the forrest for the trees.

You also might want to do a foam prototype on 'the next one', and send that off for approval, at the customer's expense, so that the customer can check the fit etc. This is just one more way to make sure you have your butt covered and that you are doing all you can to hold up your end of the deal - plus you get to see it & feel it in your hands to make sure what you programmed makes sense in the physical world.

Now...the fact that this toad is from NJ is irrelevant. The type of person who would not acknowledge the hard work you put forward on this project is callus. Karma will get him one way or another. I know it makes your blood boil...but you know what? - It is just a lesson to avoid this situation and type of customer in the future. You can't do much about it now, but say screw it and move on. Otherwise you'll just make yourself sick over it...and that means he won... ;)

-B

[bleeth]

I also learned the hard way regarding custom work for individuals and it is one of the reasons I mostly stick to commercial work now (even though the actual work is not nearly as interesting). The real lesson is at some point there will always be an a--hole who doesn't get it. Most of the time you can smell them and turn down the commission but sometimes it happens. You are lucky that the whole thing was in hundreds and not thousands.
Your work is beautiful and I wouldn't take his idiocy to heart in any way.

[bobmoore]

Whether it is crossing into fraud or not is kind of irrelavant now in my opinion. The time is past for challenging him. Learn from it and move on to a new customer. Good Luck
Bob

[harryball]

I stopped doing commissioned custom work for that very reason. I'll make it, if you like it buy it if you don't like it, don't buy it. Some of my most stressful situations have been custom work. I get way too involved and picky over details and the best I ever get is paid with no comment. When they start nit picking I take it personally. I guess that's the artist in me, if there is any. Do something beautiful and creative for yourself and tell everyone else to shove it if they don't like it.

/RB

[Ajcoholic]

Well, I know the concensus for most replying here is you dont like custom work... however that is the nature of my entire business, and has been withour family woodworking business for 40+ years.

I think you learn a lot dealing with people - after 20+ doing custom woodworking, I can almost tell immediately after my first chat with a potential client if there will be "issues" or not. I turn down work, no matter how good it might seem.

In my years (and my father before me) Ive been burned a few times. But, the countless amazing jobs I have done for some very wonderful people more than make up for it in my opinion. I love custom work!

As for pricing - I learned very early on in my career that you absolutely HAVE to price yourself to be profitable. You cannot feel bad charging a fair price - and if the client thinks it is too much when you give the quote - do NOT compromise. Say, thanks but no thanks and move on.

AJC

[harryball]

For those that enjoy the process and can deal with people (and thankfully they exist) it is a great business. But you have to start by being honest with yourself... if you are not one of those people you'll just make yourself miserable. Some people can learn to cope but face it... do you really want your life's work to be based on coping? That's why many people burn out. If you enjoy what you are doing and are doing it naturally you will draw strength from it not be torn down by it.

It was a real epiphany the day I realized that some people LOVE being accountants. To me deciding between a day of accountanting (budgets, taxes etc...) vs. being zapped in the groin with a taser continuously for 10 minutes... I might have to go with the taser. :cool:

/RB

[SterlingDevelop]

I second the Taser.

And there are nice people from Jersey. Three of them, I think.:D

[billp]

We're not only nice, we're smart enough NOT to admit ripping off a copyrighted design on a public forum.....http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif

[kurt_rose]

Well that wasnt very nice Bill!!! :cool: It's like a NJ reunion up in here!!!!

[GioAttisano]

Thanks to this forum and the replies for helping me process this event. I see clearly now my mistakes went way beyond underbidding a job, and then using a faulty process for vectorizing an object, and trying to pass off mediocre at best results as acceptable because the bid was low and the rest of the project of high quality.

I owed it to the client to try to address his legitimate complaints, even though he wounded my pride by accompanying those complaints with illegitimate ones at the same time. A client isn't obligated to like even the best quality work. They are obligated to pay for work that meets predetermined specs. A maker is obligated to meet those specs in every detail, or at least getting approval of imperfections from the client before sending work off.

Brady, you're not only a wiz at CNC holddown matters, you're a very wise man. I'm going to print out your advice and post it in my shop.

I found people's thoughts about custom work very interesting. I made only production work for about 20 years, and the recession has forced me into a mix that's now mostly custom over these past few years. My CNC router has made most of this work possible, and some of it even more profitable than any of my production work ever was. I agree with Andrew that custom work has led me to many wonderful interactions with clients, and prior to this experience, even clients with whom I've had the most unpleasant episodes have come back to me for more work. Most of my custom work has resulted in clients so ebullient it's been almost embarassing. Custom work is for me anyway, very taxing, but also very rewarding. I learn something new on almost every job.

I hope at least none of you turn me in on the cr issue!

[genek]

I do custom work from time to time... I learned to comunicate with the client, never trust a client to draw or measure items correctly.. Most can not tell the differance from a 1/4 inch mark on a ruler from a 1/8 inch mark.. Most of their drawings lack much even when the trace the item.. I have them bring what they want made or parts made for to me to see and do my own drawings etc...
I require half up front no refund.. I have a sign in the shop that states no refunds... They must sign for any changes, they must approve drawings or templates before the actuall work is started... This they sign off on... Then when the part or object is cut... It is theirs.. They must then pay the balance before it being shiped or picked up...
Never send pictures or drawings to them via e-mail and make sure the sign the go sheet for each step.. And place their name on the drawing or template in ink.... Then keep them for at least six months...
This cuts down on problems.. Also state that wood even from the same tree or board can have differnace's in color etc...it is best to stain all parts of wood of the same kind at the same time... This way it stops some color changes.
Best thing to do is be up front, honest, back your workmenship, if you make a mistake correct it... Before the customer sees it... It is better to lose a little money on wood and time than to lose the whole price quoted... Explain also that hand made is not a precise as tool made... Never explain how you make items to the customer...
Even with the cnc's there is still enough hand work to call it hand made.
I say hand made for this time frame.. True hand made is we cut it with a hand saw, we hand plane it, we hand carve it and hand sand and finish... If we did it this way now... A simple tool handel would cost 100.00... But we as cnc operators still have hand made.. This is per the standards of today...

[signtist]

Well I hate to be the one who bursts you bubble.
The case is nice but the inset is totally off. I always look at things like this a lot more artistically. No matter who looks at the shape of the pocket.
The gun manufacturer would never accept that ugly shaped pocket to display their product. It would have to enhance the product....not fight with it.
That is an ugly shape..... period.
That was a critical factor to the client. It'a also the entire reason for the box.
Should have been drawn full size on paper and mailed to him for approval.

[myxpykalix]

Al,
Can you take the insert out and use the box for another customer? It is such beautiful work you don't want to lose out totally.:D

[shilala]

Al, I build lots and lots of custom boxes, yours is gorgeous.
I'm not crazy about the Winchester inlay, I think it takes away from the beauty of the box, I don't think I'd have done it even if the customer insisted. That's just one of those "things" we all have about us, and really doesn't have any bearing on what you've done, but I say no a lot. I make what I like.
You totally missed the pocket for the rifle, and that's a lot of work to fix it, but you're the pro. I just turned down a job yesterday where someone wanted custom drawers made based on their dimensions. The drawers are for inside a thermoelectric wine cooler and I happen to know that all these coolers are tapered from the front to back, the customer does not. To get proper dimensions I need the wine cooler in my shop, or to buy one just to get dimensions.
I guess what I wanted to say, and with complete respect, that if you told me you were going to charge me 200 bucks to fix the recesses, I would have been absolutely irate. I can't imagine anyone wouldn't. To suggest to me to "try to get used to it" would have already raised my blood pressure through the roof, and would have convinced me you were nuts.
I've got a great amount of respect for you in that you've realized all the angles where you could have done better. I can also put myself in your shoes, you were really between a rock and a hard place.
It seems like any time I've ever taken a lowball job because times were exceptionally tough, that's when I end up really losing my ass. I'm truly sorry you got bit on this one.
Every lesson I ever learned was straight through my wallet, so we've got that in common, for sure. :)
I hope you can somehow salvage this box and make her into something someone will enjoy, because she truly is a beauty. Best of luck in the future, as well, my brother!!!

[Brian Harnett]

Well, I know the concensus for most replying here is you dont like custom work... however that is the nature of my entire business, and has been withour family woodworking business for 40+ years.

I think you learn a lot dealing with people - after 20+ doing custom woodworking, I can almost tell immediately after my first chat with a potential client if there will be "issues" or not. I turn down work, no matter how good it might seem.

In my years (and my father before me) Ive been burned a few times. But, the countless amazing jobs I have done for some very wonderful people more than make up for it in my opinion. I love custom work!

As for pricing - I learned very early on in my career that you absolutely HAVE to price yourself to be profitable. You cannot feel bad charging a fair price - and if the client thinks it is too much when you give the quote - do NOT compromise. Say, thanks but no thanks and move on.

AJC

Could not have said it better, great advise.

[GioAttisano]

I ended up reimbursing him round trip shipping as well, along with a note, apologizing for the junctures where I felt I had made mistakes, as a woodworker,as a businessman, and as a human being.

I had sent him a preview of the insert showing the 1/4" offset strategy which he approved.

I agree the box would have been more beautiful without the inlay, but since its express purpose was to house a W-ter rifle, and the customer requested an inlay.... This situation pops up all the time with custom work. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and usually when the customer is given what they asked for they're very happy, even if many people would not find the item aesthetically pleasing. I try to accomplish both objectives. I always send previews from Aspire, often with additional work in Photoshop or Sketchup. In this price range I don't think full scale paper drawings mailed to customers is feasible.

I'm still not sure if I could have satisfied this guy or not. He was unusually unversed in what he was asking for, and that made communications difficult. I know I blew it, and I learned a lot from my mistakes. I'm going to try to get myself up to a much higher speed on French fitting, with the goal of a flock-free method, more like what the leather and bookbinder guys use.

Again, thanks for the thoughtful comments, and sharing of relevant experiences from you all.

[gene]

The thing is not to beat yourself up over this one job , any woodworker who says that they have never had a unsatisfied customer is either new to woodworking or telling a story. its water under the bridge , you learned form it , time to move forward. the lessons that you remember the longest are the ones that you buy and pay for!