small detail sander

[steve_g]

Are any of you using and happy with a small detail sander? I need to get into a recess the size of a business card... I've been using a block of wood with PSA sandpaper epoxied to a cheep palm sander. I've burned it up and am looking for a replacement...

SG

[feinddj]

I have a Fein detail sander. Been at least 15 years. Still runs perfectly and sands well.

[steve_g]

David

I know that Fein makes durable tools and the detail sander was spoken well of in a previous thread here... Do they make a head small enough to fit into a business card size recess?

SG

[shilala]

Steve, I have this Festool detail sander (http://festools-online.com/festool-tools-1/festool-sanders-and-polishers-1/festool-orbital-triangular-sander-dts-400-eq.html) and I can get it in most anywhere. (Mine is actually the DTS EQ Plus, don't know if there's any difference there.)
I've burned up a pile of little sanders, and I saw these being demo'd at Hartville Hardware. Once I tried it, I was sold.
It hooks right up to my Festool Vac and I haven't sucked a lick of sanding dust since. It really is a beautiful thing, even if the pricetag is completely ridiculous.

[feinddj]

The starndard sized pad would not fit. You can modify the sanding head with a jig saw. There are also various premade heads that you can purchase.

[steve_g]

Festool Pad Size 4" x 6"(100 x 150 mm)

A business card is 2"X 3.5"

Still looking!

SG

[steve_g]

I found the Kent sanding finger and it looks like it might work.. I cant verify the dimensions however... http://www.amazon.com/Sanding-Multi-Max-Multimaster-Craftsman-Milwaukee/dp/B004UJBFY2/ref=pd_cp_hi_1 (http://www.amazon.com/Sanding-Multi-Max-Multimaster-Craftsman-Milwaukee/dp/B004UJBFY2/ref=pd_cp_hi_1)

[billp]

Steve,
I've used a Porter Cable detail sander for years, with good results. the reason I chose that tool over the Feins, and Festools was because you get a bunch of different sanding profiles with the tool and it's VERY easy to cobble up custom pieces of rubber that will easily attach to it's body. NO proprietary add ons are necessary.It is very handy to get into those difficult places on a boat that won't accommodate other sanders. BUT I have never used it for 100%duty cycle type of work where I did batches of parts all day long. Maybe if someone else on the Forum has run it all day they can comment on it's performance.

[jerry_stanek]

I have the Fein but have used the Harbor Freight unit also It is a lot cheaper than the Fein but it does the job. Don't want to take a $300 tool to a trade show where it would be the target of theft do I got the $20 HF unit.

[michael_schwartz]

The Festool Deltex is the only one that works. Mine has been a lifesaver.

http://www.festoolusa.com/products/sanders/dx-93-e-detail-sander-567856.html

[steve_g]

I can't come up with exactly what I want... hook and loop isn't ideal for me as I get my sandpaper in PSA rolls through the 3M employee store. My sister mails me these end of run and returned rolls.

Rather than make a hurried decision... I think my old solution is the best for now. I have an old Dewalt sander that going to get a adapter epoxied to it.

Thanks for your input... a long term solution will still need to be made!

SG

[Ajcoholic]

I have a Fein oscillating multi master thingy ma bob (the thing with several different types of cutters, sanders, carbide files, etc.

I have made custom size sanding pads to get into small areas. If you are half way handy (and if youre here you are) you could take an old saw, epoxy a block of wood or some sort of plastic to the face, that would fit into your space and also be good to stick the PSA sandpaper to.

Come on, there is ALWAYS a way to do things... "Red Green" it! :) (without the duct tape)

AJC

[shilala]

Steve, the Festool has a rubber base pad. I use the tip or back corner to get into spots. I can literally polish a dime with the tip, or could easily sand something like a business card shape pocketed down into a sign. It'll get anywhere and it works smoothly. I can set the sander's speed so I don't go wild and wreck stuff.
Granted, I have no idea how your area is laid up, but it's very seldom I need to make a sanding block nowadays. If you could pick one up and try it, I'm sure you could return it if it doesn't work out.

[steve_g]

Scott and all

The recess I'm trying to sand is 5/8" deep... a business card holder.

SG

[gerryv]

Beautiful work Steve.

[adrianm]

How about one of these - http://www.proxxon-tools.com/tools/Proxxon-PS-13-Pensander-12V--788.html

[genek]

Nice holding jig... I use pivot clamps like that but never thought of using a squire up jig...
Good idea.

[dana_swift]

I use one of these all the time:

http://www.proxxon-tools.com/tools/Proxxon-BSL-220-E-Belt-Sander--789.html

Its dynamite for getting into tight spots and small parts. You can tilt the sanding belt to different angles depending on the job. It even has a port for dust collection, which I dont use, as the hose is in the way all the time.

Its variable speed, but that is a feature that is not important. Its "high" speed is not very high.

On the negative side its very effective and if you hold in one spot for a moment with a little pressure, it cuts a groove. Try it on some scrap till you get the feel for it.

D

[shilala]

You're right, Steve. That Festool of mine would do the top, but it wouldn't reach way down to do that bottom one.
I'm not sure what bit you're hogging that out with, but if I finished it up with an 1/8" ballnose with a 15-20% stepover, it would be smooth as a baby's bottom. Maybe you could try that once and see if the increased time would be offset by the time saved sanding?

[steve_g]

Thought I would share a feature of this box... I use an offset kerf hinge...http://craft-inc.myshopify.com/collections/hinges/kerf-hinges (http://craft-inc.myshopify.com/collections/hinges/kerf-hinges) I rout out a pocket, recess and all for the hinge and install it with a routed shaped spline. This process allows me to do all the prep work for the hinge on the bot and install the hinge without fear of splitting the wood in a fragile area of the project.
Gerald... thank you, compliments always appreciated!

Adrian and Dana... the Proxxon tools looks the closest to what I want! Dana do you have a state side supplier?

Eugene... I have about a 1/16" pocket in the jig, the square was screwed down after the first part was positively located. Every thing else is accurately located after that and held securely between the square and the cheap cams pivoting on a deck screw.

Scott... I'm using a 1/4" down spiral FEM bit. I tried using an 1/8 bit as it would have saved a tool change but was unhappy with the time it was taking... and it wasn't even a ball bit with a small step-over! I've got a hundred of these to make...

[dana_swift]

Steve- check with Woodcraft-

D

[Brady Watson]

This post is a prime example of why box flocking was invented...

-B

[steve_g]

This post is a prime example of why box flocking was invented...


Ha! Think they'd notice?

SG

[Jimwill52]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porter-Cable-Profile-Sander-Kit-9444R-/271016242550?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f19d3ad76

I found one on Craigslist today in Kansas City for $60... I think I'm going to pick it up, it looks pretty handy. They are discontinued but looks like it could do what you are wanting.

Jim

[bleeth]

Jim-I bought one of those models when they first came out and without going into a lot of stuff let me say there was a good reason why they were discontinued. In general the design just wasn't very good.

[Jimwill52]

Thanks, you just saved me $60.

[cowboy1296]

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=22100&site=ROCKLER

first off let me say these sanders suck. i rated them a 1 only because there was not a negative number, but the concept was good. the stick on sand paper will not stay on the sander at all.

i think i am saying this correctly but i added hook and loop to the small sanders and they work pretty good.

as small as they are i am still looking for something smaller.

[steve_g]

Rick

I'm confused.... what makes them go back and forth? :D

SG

[cowboy1296]

its called rick power.

i saw one of these at woodcraft the other day and liked it but you had to buy 4 at a time, rockler sells one. i ordered it based on two reviews. hopefully it will work. not a lot of money invested but i could use a small detail sander.

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5556

[steve_g]

If you like them... you might save some money here.
http://supergrit.com/products/products_woodworking-sandingsticks.asp (http://supergrit.com/products/products_woodworking-sandingsticks.asp)

SG

[steve_g]

Steve- check with Woodcraft-


Proxxon pen sander.
Woodcraft will order it but do not carry them... no displays either.
Has any one had the pen sander in their hands? I'm curious whether it's a serious tool or a toy.

[Brady Watson]

Go home and open up your closet. You have more than $40 hanging up that you aren't going to wear - ever. Spend the $40.

Take one for the team & report back to us whether it is worth it or not. :D

-B

[steve_g]

Take one for the team & report back to us whether it is worth it or not

Done... you'll soon have a review. The Amazon reviews weren't all favorable, however it seems that the common complaint (actuator arm coming off drive pin) may be easily remedied.

More to come... SG

[Brady Watson]

I wasted the $100+ on the Porter Cable detail sander...Thought it would be just the thing for sanding reliefs etc years ago. Turns out it is awkward to keep the paper on the shaped rubber tips and the paper wears out really quickly. Neat concept...but it is not worth the effort.

A mini-mop sander might be the way to go. Stockroom Supply in Canada had a selection years ago, not sure who the source is now. I know that 3M also has some rubber impregnated abrasive 'mops' with little fingers on them that works pretty well for sanding all kinds of awkward shapes - whether or not it is a good fit for what you need to do is hard to say.

-B

[steve_g]

Here's my take on a couple of detail sanders... I picked up a Proxxon detail sander as it looked like it had possibilities for my particular job. The question I needed answered was "Tool Or Toy".
The tool was available through Amazon for under $40.00 so not a big investment to find out the answer. The pen sander (PS 13) is a 12Volt DC tool but the power supply is not included in that price... I have no end of power supplies left over from other endeavors and had no problem with that. I like the straight line rather than orbital sanding feature of the tool. The sanding stroke is very small and any attempt to hurry the job along by applying more pressure just brings sanding to a halt also the surface area of the sanding head is small and the paper quickly wears out. It took about 20 minuets of sanding to get one half of a business card box to where I thought it might be OK. The small head will go where no sander has gone before... just not at warp speed. Tool or toy? the answer is ...Yes

Harbor freight has a sale going on that included their "Chicago Multifunction power tool" for $17.99 . I knew I would have to modify it for my needs but at that price I didn't mind throwing it away if it didn't work for my use! The tool is advertised as an 8 function tool, however none of the accessories necessary to do any of them come with the tool... instantly add about $14.00 to make it able to sand. I modified the "finger sanding tool" to make it fit in my box. After about three minuets of sanding I had a top and bottom sanded very well. I was very pleased with how well it got into the corners and how little effort on my part it took. Now the bad news... It was too hot to hold to do another box immediately.

I think that this little experiment has shown me that I can modify the sanding finger of a better quality tool and get the results I need. Now I just need someone with one of the high dollar tools to tell me that they can run extended amounts of time without them getting too hot to hold...

SG

[steve_g]

continued from above...

[srwtlc]

Steve, while it leaves a small radius at the bottom and a larger radius in the corners, have you thought of using a 0.75" bowl cutter? I use the 1.25" ones and get clean bottoms that require less sanding. Also, the downcut FEM bits from Centurion work well. Just a thought.

http://www.infinitytools.com/Bowl--Tray/products/1007/

[steve_g]

Scott
Any increase in cutter diameter would require me to enlarge the size of the cardholder... That may not necessarily be bad, would just have to be approved. I used a FEM (Full end mill) bit too improve the bottom finish... perhaps it's time to square up my Bot.

SG

[srwtlc]

Type of wood makes some difference with the FEM's too. I have good results with walnut or harder woods, but not as good with cherry. Had some walnut recently that must have grown up to close to its cousin butternut...very stringy. Couldn't even sand it out. :(

[Brady Watson]

You do NOT want to use a downcut if you want the smoothest finish you can. The top of the box is best done with the downcut. The bottom/clear with an upcut.

Visualize what is happening to the material and chips as the downcut shears...Where's the chip going? What happens if it slips under the tool while cutting and moving? You can say goodbye to swirlies at the bottom by switching geometries.


-B

[shilala]

Steve, I don't know how many of those card holders you do at once, but I use an 1/8" ballnose with about a 20% stepover and can get a nice, smooth, no need to sand finish on most stuff, even softwoods like poplar and soft maple. Maybe a cleanup pass down in there is worth a try to see how it does?
The pass might be quicker than the sanding, or shorten up your sanding routine enough to make it worthwhile.
Those ballnoses have worked so well for my finish passes I've been planning to pick up a 1/4" and 1/2", I just keep putting it off.

[srwtlc]

A downcut FEM leaves a better bottom than an upcut anytime I've tried it (Non FEM downcuts are another story). The grain isn't being lifted as it's being cut like with an upcut, which leaves more swirlies and fibers. A standard upcut (like Onsruds wood rout whatever number) will leave swirlies from the cutting points at the outer edge. I've cut tons of pockets and the downcut FEM's or bowl and tray bits have given the best pocket bottoms. The first pass of a downcut will jam chips into the bottom of the cut, but after that there is clearance for the chips to fly out.

[Brady Watson]

It must be that I never use upcut spiral router bits...I use center cutting end mills, so that must be the difference. The Onsrud upcut spirals have a fishtail on them - which probably causes those swirls. I never use downcut spirals when area clearing, but if what you got works - great. Is the "FEM" center cutting by any chance?

Oh...BTW you can get end mills (RH spiral only, unless you really look for LH spiral) in a number of specific corner radii in case you guys forgot. This would eliminate the sharp corners at the bottom and vertical wall, without using a crappy core box or other wonky brazed form tool.

-B

[steve_g]

Scott S, Scott W & Brady
I typically make these in runs of 100 about a year apart... I am using a FEM down-cut bit as trial and error showed that to be my best finish in Cherry. The chips being caught under the bit is a non issue as my last pass is a .020" onionskin pass. however, to be perfectly honest I did not try a ball nose bit. This run is complete and sanding is my only current recourse.


"I thought you were kicking in for a Proxxon thingy"
That's what I thought I did in post #35

SG

[Brady Watson]

]That's what I thought I did in post #35

I know...I edited it 3 min before you posted...

-B

[shilala]

I think you'll be shocked if you try a ballnose, Steve. I just cut a couple 12" diameter plaques from cherry and literally didn't need any sanding. I started sanding the face of one just out of habit, hit it with the air and wished I'd left it alone.
I use center cutting upspiral endmills rather than the fishtails Brady mentioned. They make for cleaner cuts, too. I just got a new Bosch "endmill" and noticed it cut pretty lousy the very first time I used it. Then I put on my glasses and looked at it. Fishtail. I really need to spend a day at my desk and do all the stuff that's sitting there, like ordering bits. :)

[srwtlc]

Brady,

I don't know if you would call the FEM's center cutting or not. I guess you could. The end is flat and the end of each flute is ground with a cutting edge. You still don't want to straight plunge them too much, still best to ramp in.

Kind of hard to see, but here's one of Centurions...

http://www.centuriontools.com/router_bits_toolcase/centurion_tools_showcase.html?page=full&cart=13437361125412454&__max=6&--eqskudatarq=38DS21.03FEM&id1=374&id2=2&id3=764&id4=766

[steve_g]

Official Definition:
Center cutting: Some milling cutters can drill straight down (plunge) through the material, while others cannot. This is because the teeth of some cutters do not go all the way to the centre of the end face. However, these cutters can cut downwards at an angle of 45 degrees or so.

I use the Centurion 1/4" FEM bit... while it has a flat profile on the bottom, the cutting edge does not continue all the way to the center. I always ramp into cuts with it.

SG

[GioAttisano]

I've been using something like this, obtained elsewhere many years ago, and I couldn't find out where, but these are similar.http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/store/Abrasives___Hook_and_Loop___Apprentice_Disc_Holder ___artisan_disc_holders?Args=

They can't get into extreme corner but work really well for smoothing bottom of routed boxes right up to vertical wall.

[Brady Watson]

Looks like a nice tool. I'll have to order one and try it. I like their compression spirals - a good value for the money.

From your pic it looks like a combination between a fishtail router bit and a center cutting end mill the way the flute goes across the bottom. Very different from any other downcut I've seen.

-B

[steve_g]

A follow-up on the Harbor Freight Multi-tool... I repacked the Grease in the gearbox and changed my grip to not include any metal parts. These two changes have made the tool usable!

An interesting observation today... Boxes made from riff to quarter sawn lumber require little to no sanding. The closer the lumber is to plain sawn, the more sanding is required. So far today this observation is without exception... Anybody have a theory here?

SG

[cowboy1296]

I have changed the artwork on my bread and butter plaques. This will cause me to need a small sander. What is the bottom line on the pen sander. If you have it do you like it? I am assuming that it uses hook and loop sand paper.

In regards to the toy sanders i got from Rockler, after modifying them to do quality hook and loop sandpaper, I do still use them a lot and they do come in handy but I need something smaller.

[steve_g]

Rick

The small Proxon pen sander is a fine tool for extreme detail... like small model making, certainly nothing production. Its only advantage is its very diminutive size. In regards to its hook and loop attachment feature... all the hooks broke off before I finished using the sandpaper that came with the unit... I converted it to peel-n-stick.

SG

[cowboy1296]

assuming i know how to phrase this right, i have an entire sheet of stick on hook that can be cut to size and a roll of velcro sand paper.

THANKS

[cowboy1296]

Somewhere that has to be a detail palm sander that is smaller than the norm. I have the pen sander and the palm sander but there has to be something in between. Any suggestions?

[bleeth]

I have a small air DA that has a base around 3" x 2" and is squared so it gets into corners well. Actually more aggressive than my Dynabrades. Precut hook and loop is available for it as well. One of my suppliers brought it in the shop some years ago. Don't recall the brand name but I can check it out for you if that is what you are looking for.

[genek]

I have a small air DA that has a base around 3" x 2" and is squared so it gets into corners well. Actually more aggressive than my Dynabrades. Precut hook and loop is available for it as well. One of my suppliers brought it in the shop some years ago. Don't recall the brand name but I can check it out for you if that is what you are looking for.
find out I would be interesed as well

[cowboy1296]

This is a hobby for me and my garage can not take anymore equipment so an air sander wont work. I like the idea of the mouse/palm/detail sander with the pointed head. But they all have about the same size head which is roughly 3.6 inches wide by 5 inches long. You would think that someone would make a smaller one. I do have a multipurpose tool with a smaller head, I just like the feel of the palm sander.

But naturally I would like to hear more about this sander.

[genek]

A follow-up on the Harbor Freight Multi-tool... I repacked the Grease in the gearbox and changed my grip to not include any metal parts. These two changes have made the tool usable!

An interesting observation today... Boxes made from riff to quarter sawn lumber require little to no sanding. The closer the lumber is to plain sawn, the more sanding is required. So far today this observation is without exception... Anybody have a theory here?

SG

You are right there is less sanding on riff and quarter sawed. They have less tendency to warp and the grain lays vertical which tends not to fuzz and has less tear outs.

[bleeth]

It's a Uneeds Ekasand tool (3" x 4").

Here's a link to it:

http://www.sandpaper.com/products/sanding_machines/hand_held/nonvacuum.asp


I don't know anyone who makes a similar tool in electric.
I think Porter Cable discontinued their square one although Makita and Ryobi may still do it buyt they are larger footprint and the hook and loop pads on this one make it very versatile over the "clip" ones
All the detail sanders I know have barrel grips.

[Burkhardt]

You are right there is less sanding on riff and quarter sawed. They have less tendency to warp and the grain lays vertical which tends not to fuzz and has less tear outs.

I have a follow-up question that may be related....
I cut a 2-sided maze with a 1/8" downspiral and a 3/8" ball end into 1.25" thick poplar. I found that one side came out quite smooth and almost needed no sanding. When I flipped the board and cut the other side there is now a whole bunch of tough fuzz, in the vertical surfaces (cut with the small end mill) and in the undercut channel (done with the ball end bit) as well.

Same board, same bits, same speeds/feeds, similar pattern, same depth. Only difference was top vs. bottom of board, one was maybe 30 minutes later and the first cut was held with vacuum while the board was held with screws and dowels for the flip side. Maybe it is just the way poplar behaves, although I can not come up with an explanation of the physics.

Any other suggestion for low-cost lumber that cuts clean without fuzz? Sanding inside the channels of such a maze is not really practical.

[Burkhardt]

I have a follow-up question that may be related.....

Ah, never mind....looking closer I found that my software calculates a "conventional" tool path for the top and a "climb" path for the bottom. That would surely account for such a difference I guess. Got to fix that.

[cowboy1296]

If you check out the reviews on the older Ryobi detail sander you get the idea that they suck. However they have come out with a new and improved model. It does appear to be a little smaller than the others on the market. But has anyone had the chance to use one of these yet. If nothing else its purdy.


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-0-3-Amp-2-7-8-in-Corded-Detail-Sander-DS1200/206354298

[Davo]

I have that one

Probably 1 month old

I have zero complaints

I do like the easy to stick on pads

80grit and 150 grit options if I remember right

[cowboy1296]

THANKS. i have the stuff on hand to turn it into a hook and loop. right now you can not order them on line but only pick them up in the store. Since i live in the sticks i will wait until i can get it delivered