What Do I Need For My 5hp 230V Colombo Spindle?

[rb99]

I used to power it with 230V 3 phase, but I am running out of a residential garage now, so the Delta controller will not work. I assume I will need another controller.

I am not sure about 230v single and 3 phase, although from what I have read the 230v available in a residence will be single phase.

Will this unit work? http://salecnc.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=166&osCsid=ljjud0jmlkohogd4rooir4d220

What units can you recommend?

Also, with the 4g controller are there any features I can take advantage of regarding spindles and if so what do I need to accomplish them?

Thanks again.

[bleeth]

Typically it is run by a Delta 10HP 3PH that when wired with 220 1PH will output 5HP. These guys can get you fixed up with that:
www.pdscolumbo.com

[rb99]

Typically it is run by a Delta 10HP 3PH that when wired with 220 1PH will output 5HP. These guys can get you fixed up with that:
www.pdscolumbo.com (http://www.pdscolumbo.com)

Thanks... Unfortunately it is $918.

Will this unit work? http://salecnc.com/catalog/product_i...ogd4rooir4d220 (http://salecnc.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=166&osCsid=ljjud0jmlkohogd4rooir4d220)

[rb99]

Correction. My Delta was 230V 3 phase. Is there a way to power the spindle with 230V 1 phase or create 3 phase 230V from 230V 1 phase?
What about 208V 3 phase?

I think I could run it at 1/2 hp by using it with 230V single phase?

[bleeth]

To create 3PH from 1PH you need a phase converter. This could be a way to save some dollars. You need one that outputs sufficient amps for the load.I don't recall the amp requirement and am writing from home but that's easy for you to check. Theoretically you could simply run it at "half" horsepower but you could lose the main advantage of having the spindle-constant torque. You also may be able to use one of the import 5HP single phase VFD's. Delta is a very good piece of equipment though and if you inquire direct they may offer you a trade in for yours or you could sell it direct on the open market.
At this point I would open a dialogue with SB tech support, etc. and get some input from those who are trained in this.
The unit in your link is too light-weight.
Here's some tech info in a nutshell and you may want to speak with them direct as well.:
http://www.precision-elec.com/derate-three-phase-vfd-for-single-phase-power/

[rb99]

Here is the info off the spindle:

Colombo spindle;

v 230

prot- IP54
KW 3.7 HP 5
HZ 200 HZ 400
AMP 14.5
n 12000 24000
DATA 0799
TIPO-RV9O-2FP


From the Delta:

DELTA 3.7 KW 220V 3PHASE
VSD-A

MODEL- VSDO 37A 230A
INPUT 3PH 200-240V 50/60HZ 19.6A
OUTPUT-3PH 0-240V 17A 6.5KVA 5HP
FREQENCY RANGE 0.1-400HZ

[bleeth]

Here is a link to a couple options under Phase converter to continue running your current VFD:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5HP-3-Phase-Converter-Rotary-1-To-3-Phase-CNC-mill-/260674744294?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb16cefe6

http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-HP-Rotary-Phase-Converter-/310543610070?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item484dd770d6

These could be just enough to run your current VFD/Spindle but you may have to step up to a slightly larger one. Don't try to do it with a static phase converter though.

Whenever I embark on a new electrical chore that I haven't done before or think I may be cutting it close to the bone load-wise I always pick the brains of a couple electricians.

Let us know which way you go and how it works out.

[rb99]

Thanks for the advice Dave. I will definitely get an electrician on board before I do anything.

The first link was $370, but only went to 3.3hp.

The second link is a converter as well. Running an electric motor cannot be very cost effective in the long run?

It will be a little while before I hook this spindle up but I will let you know which way I go...

[jerry_stanek]

both have a floating motors they don't use much power and give you the three phase you need. My dad got a converter made back in the 60s when some said that it could not be done.

[curtiss]

5hp 230V Colombo Spindle

Would it be possible to convert it to a 230 hp spindle that would run on 5 volts ?

[Joe Porter]

Wellllll......Maybe with a Small Block Chevrolet :)......joe

[aschutsky]

Guys - any updates here from someone who has run a 5hp unit on single phase?

I've located a machine locally that runs a native three phase Colombo and had been doing research. I had come across the Yaskawa V1000 units that are single phase input with 5hp rating. The price seems very reasonable for what it does - anyone had luck with one of these?

http://motorsandcontrol.com/products/yaskawa/yaskawa-v1000-drive/200-240v-1-phase/nema-1/yaskawa-v1000-drive-cimr-vuba0018faa-200-240v-1-phase-5-5hp.html

[myxpykalix]

You may want to talk to someone who works on large building projects, an Industrial Electrician. There was talk on here before of a guy who was having 3 phase run to his shop and it was a boonedoggle and way too expensive and the phase converters were very expensive also.

In the end you may find it cheaper and easier to just buy a single phase 220 spindle:confused:

[Brady Watson]

The path of least resistance is a single phase VFD (as Dave pointed out) that will pull in 1ph and internally convert it to 3ph (sorta). A 5hp spindle needs a 10hp VFD to do this. No it is not cheap, but it is the 'right tool for the job' - otherwise you have to fart around with rotary converters and band-aid things like that. FYI - the 'rotary' part of the converter is a motor that has to run to generate the 3rd phase...

-B

[jerry_stanek]

One nice thing about a rotary Phase converter is you can wire it up to a panel and power more then one tool. I had one in a shop that we ran a table saw planer band saw jointer and air compressor from it

[aschutsky]

It looks like I have two options:

1) Use a three phase input VFD using a single phase input and allow for derating, which would be double the normal size (10HP vs. 5) vs. what one would normal use with a three phased input.

2) Use a dedicated single phase VFD like I linked above. I believe shopbot also uses the V1000 Yaskawa and I saw it listed on PDS's site as well. I would think this would be the better option, no?

I may give PDS a call today to discuss. Thoughts?

[donclifton]

Do not use a rotary phase, they have a enbalance. The third leg is generated buy the other two and the power is not pure enough to run a spindle. The cheapest way is the right way.
Donald Clifton

[mark_stief]

Hmm I've ran mine since "06" on a three phase convertor never had a bit of trouble IF the phase convertor is set up right they can be balanced almost perfect Also I have three different ones running total HP 110 the oldest one has over 14,000 hours on it yes you read that right Not one problem with it at all Phase convertors use very little to run

[donclifton]

I'm talking a roto phase made with a motor turning anouther motor. To genera the third phase.
Don clifton

[jerry_stanek]

Roto phases can be balanced

[donclifton]

How? I would love to know. I guess you could load it up with capacitors but that would cost more than a inverter. The third leg is always lagging, they work ok for standard motors I had one on my knee mill for a long time. It never had the starting torque that it does now with a inverter. And they are noisy.
Donald Clifton

[Brady Watson]

I'd love to know too...

The rotary option is Rube Goldberg in my opinion. It is a band aid and will cost you more money to run since you have to spin a motor to generate the extra leg. Save up and do it right.

I was consulting at a shop that had an SB Plasma cutter. The Hypertherm stuff has an inverter power supply & can run on either single or 3ph. The customer was running a rotary phase converter to generate 3ph because the gauge of wire could be smaller to go the distance from the box to the plasma. While I was there - he fried it...and then had to get the proper gauge wire to wire it up single phase to make it all work - what he should have done in the first place.

Don't shoot yourself in the foot. KISS - the VFD is the right solution - unless you hate yourself and like self sabotage, which I think many of you enjoy from what I have seen & read. Hook yourself up.

-B

[mark_stief]

If a 3phase convertor is installed and wire properly no matter how sensitive the motor it is running will not know the difference Or I'm damn lucky with 14,000 on one convertor and 5400 hrs on the shopbot and not a bit of trouble I'm not sure what you mean by noisy either it' just a motor running idle:confused:

[jerry_stanek]

We had a greenhouse that needed 3 phase to run the boilers and water pump. The boiler had a 10 horse motor and the pump was a 15 horse motor the pump had an 8 inch discharge pipe so you know it would be hard starting and the rotary phase converter never had any problem starting it. the boiler had to run 11 months a year for heat and sterilizing the ground. The print shop I cut for has one to run their screw compressor and high end printer that cost them $320,000 so I think it would run a spindle.

[gene]

i run a 4 hp 3 phase on a vfd that is hooked to a single phase supply , the vfd is rated for about 3 times of the spindle

[Brady Watson]

My question is, how much are you going to save with a rotary converter? $200 maybe? You need at least a 10hp one to run a 4-5hp spindle. As with anything else, 'cheap' is all relative...and most times more expensive than just getting the right equipment to start with. No doubt a rotary converter will work - plenty of shops have them & run them with no problems. It cost me over $30k to get 3ph to my new shop. I could have cheesed out with a phase converter - but now I can run whatever I want without worrying about sins of the past. $900 is a drop in the bucket to do the job right - especially when the 'cheap' alternative costs almost the same amount. We all have budgets - but if this machine is an integral part of you making a living, you 'invest' in the things that you can rely on - super duty - or you'll let yourself down. A word to the wise should suffice...

-B

[richards]

I agree with Brady. Running 3-phase to a home shop is usually not an option. Buying a 10-hp VFD is the price that you pay to let your spindle do it's job. Looking at automationdirect.com shows a good 10-hp VFD is $734.

[jerry_stanek]

I agree with Brady. Running 3-phase to a home shop is usually not an option. Buying a 10-hp VFD is the price that you pay to let your spindle do it's job. Looking at automationdirect.com shows a good 10-hp VFD is $734.

The big problem with that is will you be able to control it with your software. Also you can wire a roto phase into a panel and buy other 3 phase items. When we wanted to run 3 phase to the greenhouse it was $110,000 and that was in the 60's that was the quote from the electric company.

[donclifton]

I bought a Teco (Westinghouse) inverter from Dealers http://dealerselectric.com/page.asp?id=20 and it was easy to hookup and it was only $643. Just remember you still need a inverter with a roto phase. They only put out 60hz which would only run your spindle at 3600 rpm. The one I purchased was 10hp derated to 5.5 single phase.
Donald clifton

[jerry_stanek]

He already has the VFD just needs to power it

[aschutsky]

I spoke with a PDS tech this morning. He agreed going with the Yaskawa VFD is a great choice and stated he has many customers running that combination for three shifts per day. :eek: once I can lock in this machine with deposit that is what I will be ordering. Thanks for all the input guys.

And now to figure out what to do with the vac table and replace the 15hp regen unit that comes with it. So many choices!

[bleeth]

Don't even think about replacing that Vac. Make it work, even if it means a phase converter. You will not regret it.
That puppy sucks in the best way.

[richards]

There are a lot of posts that describe vacuum "pucks" that use a very small vacuum pump. I used that method on my 60 X 120 PRT-Alpha with great success. I also used two Fein vacuums for general purpose panel hold-down. The Feins were connected to five zones. The spoil board was cut using Brady's "upside down" vacuum channels. That system worked fairly well, but at my altitude (about 4,500 feet), I often needed more vacuum. You'll find that you need your big pump, but you don't have to start with it. By using the "pucks" or even specially cut MDF that has been sealed on all four sides as custom "pucks" and the vacuum tape that is listed in many posts, you'll be able to cut any work that you cut repeatedly.

[jerry_stanek]

He already has a great vac system so he needs a way to run it as it is 3 phase and he only has 1 phase where he is now. That is why I keep posting about a Rotary phase convertor so he can run both spindle and vac.

[richards]

There's certainly nothing wrong with wiring up a rotary converter to power everything, but I get the idea that cash might be a factor. Not only would an adequately sized rotary converter cost a substantial amount to buy, but it would cost a substantial amount to run the huge vacuum system. For very small price, the hockey-puck system will give you more vacuum than the huge universal system. A puck is small. It can create nearly perfect vacuum. Using one puck or twenty does't make a difference as long as each puck has no leaks. A universal blower system is capable of handling significant leakage, but even a universal system works better when scrap material covers unused sections of the bleeder board. The trade off is making/configuring the pucks and the porosity of the material being cut. The hockey-puck system normally doesn't work with material that bleeds air (but covering the bottom with sticker-backed paper can solve that problem. Also, you have to place the pucks so that through cuts won't let the vacuum escape. Many "big iron" CNC manufacturers supply hockey-puck type systems with their machines.

[jerry_stanek]

Those are pod and rail units and are machining centers I run one and the sheets have to be broken down as it is hard to cut and machine the parts like on a table. We have both were I work and each has its place.

[coryatjohn]

>> Not only would an adequately sized rotary converter cost a substantial amount to buy...

Also consider how many AMPS you'll need to power all this stuff.

[jerry_stanek]

It would be expensive to buy but so would a VFD that size. one that size would be about 15 amps. that is why they make 3 phase motors. they don't use much after they start. We ran 2 at the crop service I worked for. Once we started them we would let them run all day. In the greenhouse we let that one run 24 7

[richards]

Jerry,

Can we agree that a rotary converter would work but can we also agree that almost no one in the Shopbot community uses one, not because they don't work, but because most of us work from our homes and garages where power and space are limited and noise is frowned on. Most of us also work with a very limited budget. Most of us couldn't even afford to hire an electrician to install the panel to power a large rotary converter nor could we afford to buy a huge motor that is the basis for a rotary converter that would be large enough to power an entire shop.

For those who have an adequate power source and adequate funds in the bank, a large rotary converter might be the best bang for the buck, but for someone who sallows hard when he finds that a VFD would cost about $1,000, I wonder if he would be in the market to properly install a large rotary converter?

When I bought my PRT-Alpha, I used a Porter-Cable router. When too many neighbors started commenting on hearing me work late into the night, I bought a 3-hp spindle. The comments stopped. My work improved. My wallet was lighter.

My first "hold-down system" was a piece of MDF clamped to the tabletop. I screwed the piece to be cut to that piece of MDF. It worked. It wasn't very efficient. I bought a vortex vacuum. It worked, but it overworked by 5hp air compressor to keep it running. I bought a vacuum pump. It worked better. By properly placing the pucks and properly using "false pucks" that were there just to give stability to the pieces being cut, efficiency improved. Finally, I installed two fein vacuums and a zone system. On pieces larger than 1-foot square, that worked quite well. On smaller pieces, I still had to use the screws or the vacuum pucks.

I wanted a large blower, but I didn't have the power to run a large blower. I wanted one so badly that I stopped at a shop in California when I was in the area to see how well it worked. It worked so well that everyone in the shop had to wear ear protection, even though the blower was outside the shop in a sound insulated room. Even with a 20hp blower, the operator still had to mask off unused areas on the table to keep the work from lifting when he cut smaller pieces.

All of the methods worked. In a high production shop, you would buy whatever is necessary to get the work out the door as quickly as possible. In a one-off shop, or in a typical 'botter shop, having the biggest and the best might just be something that dreams are made from.

[DylanFM]

Sorry to re-open an old thread but I also need to run a Colombo 5HP spindle off of single phase and have some questions, specifically for Andrew about the Yaskawa VFD option.

1. Did you end up getting a Yaskawa VFD and if so, how did it work out?
2. I'm having a hard time determining from this thread, does the Yaskawa VFD replace the Delta VFD-B or does the Yaskawa VFD go before/provide 3-phase to the existing VFD?
3. If it does replace it, do I get the 5HP Yaskawa VFD or do I need to get a 10HP one because it needs to be derated for running from single phase?
4. Specific model numbers and links to suppliers for single phase VFDs that have been used with Colombo spindle would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Dylan

[bleeth]

All VFD's that will run a 5HP Columbo from single phase power source need to be a 10HP VFD.
Delta is the way to go for you IMHO for a couple reasons. If you tell Precision what you are using it for they will pre-program it for you. Although SB uses the Yasakawa's for their HSD spindles, I believe that they still use Delta when someone orders the Columbo. Actually the price difference between a 5HP 3PH Delta and 10HP is not that much. I've been running one for years-no problems at all.

[Burkhardt]

This one (http://driveswarehouse.com/p-2123-pc1-50.aspx) from Polyspede will probably do the job for $700, replacing whatever VFD you have now. If you sell the old one, it may pay for most of the new.

All assuming you have 230-240V about 20-25 Amps service (not counting the other tool that may be on that circuit).

Edit: just read the brochure and they mention 36 amps input....probably to be on the safe side.

[DylanFM]

All VFD's that will run a 5HP Columbo from single phase power source need to be a 10HP VFD.
Delta is the way to go for you IMHO for a couple reasons. If you tell Precision what you are using it for they will pre-program it for you. Although SB uses the Yasakawa's for their HSD spindles, I believe that they still use Delta when someone orders the Columbo. Actually the price difference between a 5HP 3PH Delta and 10HP is not that much. I've been running one for years-no problems at all.

When they rate the VFDs in HP are they rating the input power? I realize that it is going to draw ~35A from a single phase input, but it seems like if the output is 3.7KW that it would still be called a 5HP VFD..

Do you have a model number of the single phase to VFD you use? I'm not finding a 10HP single phase Delta brand VFD on precision's website.

Thanks,
Dylan

[bleeth]

The rating is actually output. For 1PH you need double the spindle power as you are basically not using one leg of input. My model number is VFD075B23A. It is a VFD 7.5KW/10HP 230 3PH.

If you get hold of the guys at Precision Drive they will tell you everything you need to know:
www.pdscolombo.com

[bleeth]

I meant "double the VFD power" in last post but too late to edit.

Also just went to PDS's site and see that they changed their VFD line from Delta to Yasakawa.

As noted by Gert below the link he supplied for a single phase 5HP convertor may work as well, but I would verify that. I don't really know the technical reason why a double power 3PH VFD has always been reccomended by SB for single phase power supply, but there may be one.

[aschutsky]

Sorry to re-open an old thread but I also need to run a Colombo 5HP spindle off of single phase and have some questions, specifically for Andrew about the Yaskawa VFD option.

1. Did you end up getting a Yaskawa VFD and if so, how did it work out?
2. I'm having a hard time determining from this thread, does the Yaskawa VFD replace the Delta VFD-B or does the Yaskawa VFD go before/provide 3-phase to the existing VFD?
3. If it does replace it, do I get the 5HP Yaskawa VFD or do I need to get a 10HP one because it needs to be derated for running from single phase?
4. Specific model numbers and links to suppliers for single phase VFDs that have been used with Colombo spindle would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Dylan

Hi Dylan,

Glad I caught your post. :) I have been using the yaskawa v1000 single phase rated for 5hp for several months without issues. It's working great and I used the settings right on shopbots support page. Feel free to PM with questions.

Here is my model: CIMR-VUBA0018FAA. I confirmed with shopbot and colombo this model would be a good fit. :)

[aschutsky]

BTW the 0018 model I mentioned (same as I have) is a dedicated single phase input unit so derating is not necessary. Let me know if you decide to go this route and need help setting it up. From my research I did not see a comparable unit from delta, hitachi, etc. I also shopped around for the best price and wound up around 640 shipped I believe. From what SB and PDS had to say the yaskawa is the unit to beat. :)

[DylanFM]

Andrew,

Thanks for the reply. I had almost PM'd you, but based on your posts earlier in this thread and a little bit more internet research I already ordered the same model Yaskawa VFD yesterday. I got it for a similar price.

I will be back bugging you with questions if I run into problems setting it up :)

Dylan

[aschutsky]

Andrew,

Thanks for the reply. I had almost PM'd you, but based on your posts earlier in this thread and a little bit more internet research I already ordered the same model Yaskawa VFD yesterday. I got it for a similar price.

I will be back bugging you with questions if I run into problems setting it up :)

Dylan

Dylan,

Good deal, I think you will like the Yaskawa. Here are the settings I used below. I'm happy to help as I spent quite a few days gathering all this info and trial and error. :D

http://www.shopbottools.com/ShopBotDocs/files/V1000_Programming5HP.pdf

After a fresh reset, be sure to enter the parameters in this exact sequence. That was a mistake I made (and call to SB) when I first attempted to do them alphabetically instead. :)

As for wiring - it is pretty straightforward, but let me know if you need a hand with that as well.

[UnrefinedArt]

Ok. So I bought the cimr-vuba0018faa Yaskawa v1000 for my new shop with single phase power. I finally figured out how to program the unit but I can't for the life of me get the spindle to start/run/anything (the fan turns on)! I called shopbot, the guy I spoke to was no help (nor did he seem like he was happy to help). I'm at a complete loss. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Cheers,
Sal

[UnrefinedArt]

Here are some pictures of the vfd. The only thing I can think of is possible incorrect wiring. Thanks again for your time.

[UnrefinedArt]

Ok, So the wiring was incorrect but I'm pretty sure I've got it right this time. The problem however still exists. When I try to warm up the spindle, nothing. Any Thoughts?

[barrowj]

Salvatore,

This may be something you already know but my spindle won't just start up unless my cut file has "SO,1,1", when it gets to that command the system tells you to press the start button. Only the fan comes on when you turn on the control box. Hope this helps.

Joe

[ken_rychlik]

Salvatore, It is obvious from looking at your picture that you need to hire a licensed electrician to help you out. You can't just leave the neutral wire unhooked. You are either going to damage the electronics or hurt yourself.

Ken

[srwtlc]

In your picture, that brown two strand wire in the middle needs to be hooked up to the proper place on the VFD also. I don't know about your particular model, but possibly behind a lower plate on some terminals marked for forward run/stop. Check the install instructions for that.

Along with what Joe explained, you can also start the spindle by clicking on output 1, open the keypad (K), and then hit the start button on the control box or pendant.