New Buddy owner

[wayne fussell]

I finally pulled the plug and bought a buddy system with the indexer, probe and 4ft power stick. The whole nine yards so to speak.
Having never done any cad work I hope the probe with work for what I need. I was assured by Shopbot this would work and work 10 xs better than the way I'm making them now.
I make RC Model airplane propellers, currently all by hand and it’s a lot of work to produce them. I'm hopeful this will speed up production. Here is the website for my propellers. (www.soloprops.com) I only plan on making the blades. I currently produce 9 different sizes ranging from 16" to 32" in diameter with 4 to 5 different shapes. All the metal machining is done elsewhere.
Delivery is expected February 8th.
So I'm looking for advice. I have a young man close by (1 hour) that I can hire to help me out and is willing to help me with setup and to start the scan process on the blade profiles.
And other help or wisdom anybody can give is well appreciated.

[cowboy1296]

I have a buddy 32 with the 4 ft power stick. I never bought the probe so it will be interesting to see how it works for you.

[wayne fussell]

I just hope that it works the way I need.

[Brady Watson]

I just hope that it works the way I need.

It can work surprisingly well, but keep in mind that probing is time consuming & that you will want a CAD/CAM package like Aspire to parse out anomalous data and smooth out the surface. If you find you are not up to the task of digitizing or are not getting the results you seek, feel free to contact me off-list about high definition laser digitizing. It is cheaper & faster than doing it yourself, especially when you factor in the time spent cleaning up the data in software.

-B

[steve_g]

Wayne


"I just hope that it works the way I need"

It will... but don't get frustrated and give up too soon. There is a learning curve. You said you have never done any CAD work... It's a lot for you to learn in the next year. Having some scans done would help break it all into manageable chunks.

SG

[wayne fussell]

Thanks Brady and Steve.
Brady I just sent you an email.

[wayne fussell]

Hey Steve
Frustrated is something I can't afford to become.
Since I ordered the Buddy and have the software (partworks) I have been going over it, watching the videos and learning the terms.
In the past couple of weeks I have put together a couple simple signs and generated tools paths for them. They seemed to turn out great. Even my wife was impressed.
I have also explored importing a PDF, (boat hull ribs) breaking it apart in different layers and making up the tool paths to cut the pieces out. That turned out nice too.

[Ajcoholic]

Hi Wayne!

I am a one year BT48 owner. My profession is custom woodworking, but I have been a life long RC modeler (I am 42, been at it since I was 7). If you ever picked up Fly RC magazine, I was the main engine reviewer from 2004 until about a year ago (my business and growing family no longer allow me the time to do review work) and had a monthly article on engines.

ANyhow, I used to make wood props for my own use, using a home made "copy" machine, where I would take a pattern and use a hand guided router and tracing stylus to carve a new prop from a maple blank.

I found cutting one side was easy - but when flipped over, and cutting the face (I always cut the back side first) of the prop, it would tend to flex a little giving an non uniform cross section. My solution was to make holders, from an epoxy resin/micro ballon filler mix - that supported the backside of the prop while I was cutting the face an allowed no deformation of the wood while cutting.

Just something to think about... would matter less for larger props that will have more rigidity.

I bought Aspire, and the probe - with my machine. I have never taken my probe out of the box yet, as everything I want to do so far I have done in Aspire.

But, as you know, props have to be "just so" and it might be better to get Brady or someone similar to create the computer model for you, assuming you have working prop(s) or blades already.

Anyhow, it will be interesting (especially for me since I am in the hobby) to see your machine cutting props, when you get to that point. Please post pics! :)

I knew a guy here in Ontario, Canada who was making a line of props (MSC), that I tried some of when I had time to fly IMAC. I used them on 60cc to 100cc engines. I never got to see his setup as he lived quite a ways from me, but I know he had a cnc router to carve them. I believe he sold the product line to some US company.

ANyhow, always nice to talk about anything plane related! :)

Andrew Coholic

[wayne fussell]

Hey Andrew
I think we may have chatted before on RC Groups relating to a Shrimp boat. Your avatar is the same. BTW, if your the same person I built one of your hulls.

Anyway, is Aspire the same as Partworks?
Should I look at purchasing Aspire?
Right now I do cut all the prop blades on a copy machine that I bought out of the UK. Crude at best, but works ok.

[wayne fussell]

Here is a question for you guys.
The props will need to be machined on all sides.
The root of the blade is round with a small groove.
This part is critical, size wise so that it fits into the metal hub correctly.
The rest of the blade is a normal airfoil shape with a slight twist near the root.
I had planned on using the indexer to machine it.
using the indexer would I be better off machining one side, rotating, then the other?
Or machining it just letting the indexer turn it.
Not sure I'm wording this correctly.

[Ajcoholic]

Hey Andrew
I think we may have chatted before on RC Groups relating to a Shrimp boat. Your avatar is the same. BTW, if your the same person I built one of your hulls.

Anyway, is Aspire the same as Partworks?
Should I look at purchasing Aspire?
Right now I do cut all the prop blades on a copy machine that I bought out of the UK. Crude at best, but works ok.

Nope not me. I live way up in northern Canada. No shrimp here, although the mosquitoes are about that size in summer!

[wayne fussell]

That's funny that you both use the same avatar.

Anyhow, it's been recommended to upgrade to Aspire, any thoughts?

[cowboy1296]

First off there is an upgrade either coming or has come out. If it is not out yet it might be to your advantage to wait until it comes out. Others may want to respond to this.

Its a pricy upgrade. I had to swallow hard to accept it. I do a lot of 3-d and not sure how i survived without it. Besides being able to create 3-d companants you can blend 3-d files together.

Here is my first carving using aspire. I blended about 5-6 3-d files together to make one.

Bottom line i am very happy with aspire 3.5

[Brady Watson]

Its a pricy upgrade. I had to swallow hard to accept it....




You kids don't know how good you got it. Only a couple years ago, it would have cost you $7500 to get into the 3D game. The asking price of Aspire is dirt cheap in comparison. Same with PartWorks...it would have cost you around $3500 to get the same features and options just a few short years ago.

-B

[cowboy1296]

I use to tell my future ex girlfriends that i was not an antique but more of a collectors piece. Now i am a full fledge antique. But if i can fool some of you on here into thinking that i am still a kid then i have a chance the next time i go to the beer joint. : )

And i do like aspire 3.5, the bot is cutting as i type, cant you hear it?

[Ajcoholic]

That's funny that you both use the same avatar.

Anyhow, it's been recommended to upgrade to Aspire, any thoughts?

I grabbed this pic off the internet somewhere (possibly RC Groups) like 10 yrs ago or so... It was a GIF that had the fellow throw his arms up and shake. Just a coincidence I guess...

I like Aspire. A lot. I would have paid 3X what it cost me. It allows such easy and fast 3D design. For me, a non-computer guy, it has been pretty easy to learn and get the hang of. I love when I need a 3D component for a pc of furniture, and I can sit down at the laptop and within 15 or 20 minutes the Shopbot is warming up ready to start cutting.

AJC

[wayne fussell]

All I am asking is this:
Is Partworks the same as Aspire?
ShopBot tells me it is.
AND
Will the probe work for what I am doing?
I can't afford laser scans right now.

[steve_g]

Wayne

FYI...
PartWorks is a ShopBot specific version of V Carve Pro... The difference is that it only comes with ShopBot post processors. V Carve Pro is the same as Aspire but without the 3D modeling features.

SG

[wayne fussell]

I think I understand, so in order to make 3d models I either have to draw them in another program and import them into partworks or buy Aspire.
Which version of Aspire?

[steve_g]

"Which version of Aspire?" The latest and greatest of Course! As I understand it Aspire will be upgraded free for a year after purchase... No need to wait for the expected new release.

SG

[steve_g]

The second half of your question was "will the probe work for what I'm doing now" That's a loaded question... The answer is yes... BUT can you make it work is another question. Using the probe for 2D perimeter work is very straight forward but for 3D work you need to be able to "clean up" the results. I've never tried it, hopefully someone who has will chime in here...

SG

[wayne fussell]

I'm confused now!

[steve_g]

Wayne

I'm sorry I caused you confusion... what I was trying to say is that "yes" you can do what you are describing but it will take a skill set you don't yet have. I don't want you to think that the day after you get your machine you'll be in full production... If it was easy anyone could do it! I'm assuming that you're totally green to CNC routing... You have to become comfortable with your new tool... including Design, toolpathing, cutting speeds, chip loads, ramping, bit types, and hold down methods. We haven't even talked about unwrapping a design to run it on your indexer! That being said... I don't know of a group of guys more willing to help you with the learning curve than the bunch right here!

SG

[wayne fussell]

You are correct about being green.
I do have somebody close by that is willing to help. All I plan in cutting right now is props which is why I ordered the probe and indexer, which was recommended by Shopbot.
Right now I'm just asking question to kind of get my head around all of this.

[wayne fussell]

I guess what I'm most concerned with right now is the cad software. Is partworks going to work for me using the probe?

[cowboy1296]

When you do buy the upgrade to aspire 3.5, do it through shopbot. As i recall they discount the cost on what you already paid for partworks. I went stupid for a moment and Steve is right you get upgrades free for a period of time.

[Brady Watson]

Don't be fooled. The parts you need to cut are fairly sophisticated for a new user. There is a steeper learning curve than just cutting out 2D parts. It will require a combination of 2D and 3D toolpaths, and precise material and part registration to machine both sides. An indexer is not necessary, and will introduce a major stumbling block to you as a new user. Later on down the line you can mess with the indexer.

Yes. You can use the SB probe to digitize a prop. You can then bring it into PartWorks 3D and create 3D toolpaths. You can also bring the 3D toolpaths into PartWorks 3.5 (PW2D) and then create 2D toolpaths etc, but there is no means to restrict the 3D toolpath so that it stays away from the hub area, so it may be less than ideal. The real issue is that you cannot edit the 3D data AT ALL in PWorks. So if the probe picks up something that you don't want in the cut file, tough break. With any method of digitizing, there is always stuff to cleanup and smooth out. I bet you dollar to donuts that the leading edges of your probed props will look sawtoothed unless you probe at an ultra high resolution...and even then that is no guarantee.

I recommended Aspire because you can import probe data, parse out areas you don't need or add new 3D sections and mix & match 2D & 3D operations within a single program. There is the cost of entry with Aspire - but just using PartWorks for your specific project would be a false economy when you factor in the time investment to results ratio.

You should at the very least, have a mentor to get you going, attend the ShopBot monthly training course, or have an SB Tech come down to your shop to get you into production. You DON'T want to be frustrated for months on end trying to figure it out on your own. The fastest way to get a return on your investment is to get the right tools (and people to help you) for the job right out of the gate.

If this CNC stuff was so easy, everybody would be doing it...

-B

[dana_swift]

Wayne- you are doing the right thing. You have way to produce the parts now, so keep doing it the way you know how.

Then have the CNC take over one part of the process. Get it perfected, then have it do the next step.

Everybody is green at some point, and there is no way to get ready enough. You just have to get started. You have ordered a machine! The next many years will be filled with learning and experimenting.

Each person will come up with different solutions, all of them correct, some of them slightly better in one way or another.

Get started- we can give you suggestions, yet you will find your way.

As Steve points out, you will learn how to make all the features work. There are no instant solutions because learning takes time.

Stand by to be amazed tho!

D

[Joe Porter]

Wayne, you might want to start looking into the Vectric website and forum.(www.vectric.com). They are the producers of PartWorks/V-Carve Pro and Aspire. They have a lot of tutorials and examples of types of work you may be interested in. You can also download a full featured trial version of Aspire and start looking into it. To do the kind of work you are talking about, Aspire is probably going to be necessary. At first, you may want to look into some professional help as others have suggested....joe

[cowboy1296]

@Dana. You want green, I contacted SB after i had the bot for three days a little frustrated. My comment was i had nothing but a 10,000 dollar hat rack in my garage. 3 years later, still learning something new almost everyday.

[Ajcoholic]

My advice, since you will have roughly 4 to 6 weeks (I think its still that?) waiting for the machine.... buy Aspire, and try and work a little each day (even 1/2 hour, to a few hours) after work.

Thats what I did. By the time my Buddy arrived (and I had an electrician pre-wire it, so it was running pretty much the moment I wheeled it off the crate) I was ready to start cutting 3D stuff - nothing fancy but some cutting boards, chair seats, etc.

I also would have been very frustrated if I waited until I received my machine to start learning the process by which to run it. By the time it arrived I had a pretty good understanding of how to get a bit in it, start it up, zero, and get a part I had already designed running.

Pretend you are back in school and an exam is coming up. Force yourselt to read, and study the tutorials, and manuals. Dont leave it until too late!

AJC

[dana_swift]

@Rick Life is a learning process, the bot really opens up new possibilities for personal fabrication. We are all experienced in some ways and remain green in others. We all just keep chipping away at the amount of unexplored territory.

I think the idea of making model aircraft props is a really cool one. Many years ago I got into RC aircraft and really enjoyed the hobby. That led to other things and I have not had any reason to think about how props are made since.

Wayne, you will come up with something that works for you. Your first solution is guaranteed to not be your last. You will develop methods to hold your material, methods to release your material from the hold. Ways to define the shapes, and ways to market them.

Each of us faces the problem of starting with a machine that can do such amazing things, yet it doesn't have a button labeled "make me an XYZ". Where XYZ is a specific product for a specific application. Thats why there are so many of us sharing ideas. The path from concept to sold item is something we each have to figure out.

ShopBot camps help, it lets us talk to other people making other things. They have ideas that might be useful. They may just have something you admire. Often they can show how to use some part of the process in a way that simplifies things.

The forum is the same way. I learn things from people making very different things. The finishes they use, the bits they use, the approach to their specific problems. All a free education to anyone willing to read.

Or listen.

Andrew gave some great advice- get started! Learn the software tools while you wait on the hardware. Then you will be ready to make your first efforts quickly like he did. I suspect if he were to go back and do his first projects over, he would do them differently. I sure would. And a few things I have already replaced with better versions.

Keep us posted on how the props "turn" out.

:)

D

[wayne fussell]

Thanks guys for all the comments. Nice to know there is an answer when I have one.

Well the Buddy arrived today and to say I was a little overwhelmed would be an understatement:eek:. And that was just looking at the crate. That fear was put to rest when the crate was taken apart. :D

After checking everything out I was wondering where the indexer plugs in. That was backordered from shopbot so I don't have it yet.

Just curious, If I needed to use the indexer and the probe at the same time and only have one plug..........?

I'm having to change the plug in the wall to fit the cord plug and I'm going to try and get it running tomorrow.

[wayne fussell]

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My Buddy and its first cut. Kool

[wayne fussell]

Sunday I'll attach the spoil board and fully get it surfaced.

Had a few issues with the Z routine, but I got that figured out after watching the video again.
Lots to learn.

[crash5050]

@Dana. You want green, I contacted SB after i had the bot for three days a little frustrated. My comment was i had nothing but a 10,000 dollar hat rack in my garage. 3 years later, still learning something new almost everyday.

Same here but I called it a boat anchor. I think I offeneded the dude I was talking to. If I remember right it was a feller named Ted? I am not sure who he was but he did sound awfully offended.

[myxpykalix]

Ted is only the owner of the company....:eek:
I bet you don't feel the same way about it now do you?:D

[crash5050]

OOPS, I reckon that would have insulted the feller. What the heck is he doing answering the phone anywyays?

[wayne fussell]

Took me about 3 tries to get the scaning started but I got it figured out. Now I am waiting for the indexer. I'm going to do a complete scan of the front of the blade on tuesday. If my figures are correct it will take about 6 hours to scan.

Then I'll cut it and see how well I done.


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[wayne fussell]

After a frustrating couple of weeks we are almost where we need to be with cutting the first propeller.
Using DeskProto for the CAM software. The only problem I'm having right now is the cut a just a little to deep. In other words the finished product is a little to small.
I'm still tweaking little things in the program to adjust the cutting depth, at least I think I am.
I obtained a laser scan from Brady to start with. This i have too say is the way to go, hands down.

I have to thank Brady Watson for all his help with emails, phone calls and SB Codes to make everything work properly. All i can say for sure is that without his help i would thrown in the towel for good.

Thank You Brady.
Don't worry, I still have more question and more scans.:D

[wayne fussell]

I am having one small issue that maybe somebody could help with.
While cutting the blade I get a little chatter from the bit or wood, not sure which.
using a 1/8 ball nose
16000 rpm at 1" per second

[wayne fussell]

One picture

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