Cutting laminate covered Particle Board

[Nate Sirek]

Hi All,

I've got some cutting/machining questions in regards to milling laminate cabinet parts for a big run of garage cabinets. Here is what I'm doing:

18' of laminate covered full overlay European frameless cabinets with laminate covered doors and drawers. The center section is all open with shelves and covered inside and out with Pionite. I've ordered 14 sheets of 3/4'' particle board that I plan on covering both sides of the 4x8 sheets and then milling my cabinet box parts and shelves on my Shopbot and then covering the edges with laminate. The cabinets that are not open will be made out of 3/4'' thick white two sided melamine and edges covered with laminate or corresponding edge tape to match.

Anyways, I'm used to cutting mostly white two sided with a compression bit in a couple passes and onion skinning. I usually do my rough pass on Climb at about 4-5ips and then go back and clean up the last little bit on conventional at about 2ips. This seems to work very well for me (consistent part sizing and long compression bit life). Like almost 30 sheets to a bit. The bit I normally use for this is an Onsrud 60-113 1/4'' compression bit. When I cut 1/4'' material I usually use a 1/4'' spiral upcut bit, and when I do my 5mm shelf holes I usually use a 5mm spiral upcut bit with peck drilling to 0.0.

So I'm looking for input from my fellow Botters in terms of bit usages, feed rates, etc. for this project. Thoughts??

[bleeth]

I don't make any cutting strategy changes between melamine or HPL laminated.
I do post regularly that I do my cab sides with one bit (centurian 5mm) and just let it do it's thing while cutting other parts on the saw. If what you posted works for you, then you already have your answer!

[twelchPTM]

I have not cut any laminated products with my Bot but back in the day I worked on Biesse Rover B CNC router (Big m-f-er!). We cut alot of MCP and Laminated Particle Board and always used either a compression bit so the material was pulled from the surface to the center - if the edges got chippy it was time for a new bit...

[nat_wheatley]

Nate,

I've had good luck using a solid carbide 2 flute straight bit (Porter Cable). They don't last very long, but do produce a nice cut, and I've been able to find them in the past, fairly inexpensively.

[Nate Sirek]

So I made it through 2 4 x 8 sheets of parts with my onsrud 60-113 compression bit (not a brand new bit. Cut 3 sheets of melamine first). On the 3rd sheet my laminate is pretty rough with chip out. Ideas? Im cutting at 14,500 RPMs, Rough pass at .68" in two passes on climb @ 4ips, finish pass conventionally @ 2ips. Thoughts?

[nat_wheatley]

Your RPM's seem high to me. At 4ips I'd be closer to 10,500.

That said, I've not had good results cutting that material with a compression bit, though I do think it is the bit of choice.

[dlcw]

Nate,

One thing I've learned cutting on the Shopbot, you have to compensate for the flex in the machine. I do this by first cutting my first pass in a climb direction leaving a 1/32" skin. I then cut conventional for the final pass making sure I cut the full thickness plus cut through of 1/32" in 1 pass, not multiple passes.

This process has produced very accurate sizes as well as very good edges ready to take to the edgebanding machine without any sanding. I have used 1/4" compression bits from many of the bit makers as well as a 3/8" compression from many of the bit makers. The 3/8" has less flex so will give you a cleaner, more accurate cut. The 1/4" works fine as long as you don't push the bit to fast and hard into the material. Just be ready for more flexing combined with the machines inherent flexing.

I am currently using 1/4" compression bits from R&B Tools and have been very happy with the cut quality in plywood, melamine and MDF.

[Nate Sirek]

Hey Guys,

I have been utilizing the climb rough pass and conventional cutting for my finish pass making my part sizing accurate. The biggest thing is the chipout on my Wilsonart laminate. At 90 bucks (for just the laminate) a sheet I just need that laminate to be clean so I am making a voyage this morning to hook up with one of my local tooling suppliers to get some more new 1/4'' compression bits. I'm hoping this will do the trick.

Unfortunately now I have to change the rest of my cabinet design as I'll have to take the two chipped out sides I cut and zip a 1/16th off of the front edges for a nice clean cut on mt table saw and make the rest of the box parts the same corresponding depths. Just another step that I really didn't have time to mess with today. Oh well, can't sacrifice end quality for time. Just wish there was some way to get the lost time back! If any of you have any other thoughts or cutting techniques for cutting this type of material just shoot a post on here and I will check back periodically throughout the day. Thanks again for the input. Love the TalkShopBot community!

[nat_wheatley]

FWIW these are the bits I use:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porter-Cable-U-S-A-1-4-Solid-Carbide-Straight-Router-Bit1-4-Shank-LOT-OF-5-/181110709054?pt=Routers_Bits&hash=item2a2b0a1b3e


I get cleaner cuts with these than a compression bit. 7-8 sheets before the bit goes in the trash.

Nat

[Nate Sirek]

Nat:

Are you using a router or a HSD spindle? If its a spindle what feed rates and RPMs are u cutting at? 3 passes? 2? Are u rough climb cutting first?

[nat_wheatley]

4 HP HSD Spindle, 4ips 10,500RPM. Any faster feed rate and the bits can snap.

Climb pass at material thickness less skin, then conventional pass.

You'll want to ramp into the cuts, the bits don't excel at plunging.

[Nate Sirek]

Nat:

One more question. I noticed on those bits that they only have a 3/4'' cut length. My double sided laminate parts are about 0.82'' thick. Will those bits cut through something that thick or should I look for other solid carbide straight flutes with longer cutting edges?

[nat_wheatley]

I'd look for something a little longer, iIt would be a close call with these. (though may be worth a gamble given the price...)

[bleeth]

First of all if you are a registered cabinet business you are paying too much for your laminate. Standard VG laminates from a Wilsonart distributer should be much much less. In fact, so should HG if that is what you are using.
I cut with a compression bit all the time. Parts are ready for the edgbander when cut, and I don't use an offset climb at all. Three passes in conventional straight down, no ramping. You don't say whether you have a Standard or an Alpha although I assume a PRS. If you have a standard you should cut your speed down a bit to 3-3.5/sec. I cut at this although I have a 5HPColumbo (and use a 5mm compression bit from Centurian-around 20 sheets per bit) which is heavier than the HSD so you can't move the gantry as fast as a lighter spindle. Definately cut down the spin as suggested. I run at 12,500. Verify the length of the upcut part of your bit and make sure you are going below the laminate in your first pass. If you are laminate on particle board you may have to go a bit deeper than ply or MDF on the first pass, particularly if you are suing a lower grade of particle board that has larger pieces and more air than true cabinet grade.
I use three passes total.

[Nate Sirek]

Dave,

Well unfortunately our local supplier (Aetna Plywood) whom we buy a lot of sheet stock from is also the Wilsonart distributor and this last job I bought 15 4x8 sheets of Wilsonart plane jane laminate and they were 80/sheet. Particle board 20/sheet. I shop a lot of suppliers and when it makes sense I shop elsewhere.

Personally I think Wilsonart products are a ripoff and overrated. From someone who has fabbed a lot of laminate there's no difference from brand to brand. Unfortunately I don't pick the products. The customers do. Either way if it costs 20 a sheet or 200 a sheet I'm not in the business of being wasteful. Hence this post chatting with you guys.

I'm cutting on an older PRT Alpha. Since it is the old gantry design I'm guessing my machine has a bit more slop/deflection then the newer PRS style machines. However, deflection is never my issue these days. My part sizes are always spot on, I'm just looking for better ways to increase tooling life and edge quality.

I've got 18 salon stations to cut in a week or so which are all laminate covered particle board so I'll do some more testing to see if I can get some better life out of my 1/4'' compression bits.

I'll start by reducing my rpm's. The Onsrud 60-113 1/4'' compression bits are 60 dollars a piece (initially they cut really nice) I use them all day long on melamine with great results. I'm always just curious what everyone else is using. Maybe the centurion bits are nicer. I'll have to maybe buy a couple and compare them dollar for dollar.