Managing a full-sized bot in a small shop

[TJ Cornish]

Hi all. I'm new to the forum and am interested in someday getting a Bot. I am a beginner to intermediate woodworker and am interested in using the Bot to cut things out of 4' x 8' sheetgoods - possibly stage scenery, furniture components, and other things. I'm really fascinated with seeing what you all have made, and the inlay work that folks have done using a drag knife is super cool.

I am an IT guy by day with some 3D CAD experience, so I don't think it would be too hard to jump into the CNC world. I would be a very part-time user of a ShopBot.


My shop is 32' X 21', and I have a couple large machines already in there - a 52" table tablesaw with outfeed table, Bridgeport milling machine, Clear Vue Cyclone whole-shop DC, and some workbenches that take up a fair bit of room. I have been playing in Sketchup to see how that all may be rearranged if I were to someday get either the 48" Buddy or a real 4X8 gantry machine.

If you'll all permit, I have several questions.

- How much space do you really need for a gantry machine? I've read at least one forum post suggesting that it's not a good idea to put the machine right against a wall, but how much room is enough? How do you load sheet goods - from the 4' side or over the X axis on the long side?

- Someone mentioned the ability to use the ShopBot table as an assembly table or large workbench if necessary. What is the hieght of the table? How high do the X-Axis ways stick up above the table? Is this practical?

Initially the Buddy seemed attractive because it could be used and then shoved against the wall, but after reading pretty much the whole Buddy sub-forum, it seems there are some significant compromises in using a Buddy with 4' x 8' sheets.

- There have apparently been several generations of ShopBots over the years - PRT, the current PRS, and possibly some sub-versions. Is there a document that lists the general history of ShopBot machines? I've found some references to a few things that have been changed, but this is unclear to me.

- If buying used, is there a certain age range that's desirable? It appears the newer PRS machines have a USB interface and the PRTs are RS-232?

- Are there gotchas to buying used?


Thanks in advance for any guidance,
TJ

[Brady Watson]

Hi all. I'm new to the forum and am interested in someday getting a Bot. I am a beginner to intermediate woodworker and am interested in using the Bot to cut things out of 4' x 8' sheetgoods - possibly stage scenery, furniture components, and other things. I'm really fascinated with seeing what you all have made, and the inlay work that folks have done using a drag knife is super cool.

TJ,
Welcome to the SBF. Many of us have been where you are now, so hopefully you will be able to get the answers you seek.



I am an IT guy by day with some 3D CAD experience, so I don't think it would be too hard to jump into the CNC world. I would be a very part-time user of a ShopBot.

I was there 13 years ago and bought my first SB as a maybe someday 'Plan B' - We all got laid off so, Plan B became Plan A a year after I purchased.



My shop is 32' X 21', and I have a couple large machines already in there - a 52" table tablesaw with outfeed table, Bridgeport milling machine, Clear Vue Cyclone whole-shop DC, and some workbenches that take up a fair bit of room. I have been playing in Sketchup to see how that all may be rearranged if I were to someday get either the 48" Buddy or a real 4X8 gantry machine.

Don't overlook a PRS4848 machine. It is a sweet little machine with all the same stuff as the larger tools & you can index a 4x8' sheet on it if need be. Unless you were planning on cutting a lot of full sheets (like a cabinet shop), than I would really consider this tool.



- How much space do you really need for a gantry machine? I've read at least one forum post suggesting that it's not a good idea to put the machine right against a wall, but how much room is enough? How do you load sheet goods - from the 4' side or over the X axis on the long side?

It is easiest to load from the end, but I loaded over the rail for many years with my 5x16' machine because I had it in a corner. You'll need a full 80", plus at least 12" between it and the wall on a 4' tool. You'll need 6'+ for a 4' long tool and 10'+ for an 8' long tool. You will want some extra room around the tool. Smack against the wall will shoot yourself in the foot...plus depending on how your electric is run to the machine, code may dictate that it be 3' off of the wall anyway.



- Someone mentioned the ability to use the ShopBot table as an assembly table or large workbench if necessary. What is the hieght of the table? How high do the X-Axis ways stick up above the table? Is this practical?

Whoever suggested this should be beaten with a wet noodle. This is a poor idea, although many of us are guilty of it from time to time in small shops. Don't plan on using it as a regular workbench or table. Instead, route yourself out some knock-down table supports and a top that can be stowed away.



Initially the Buddy seemed attractive because it could be used and then shoved against the wall, but after reading pretty much the whole Buddy sub-forum, it seems there are some significant compromises in using a Buddy with 4' x 8' sheets.

The BT tools are versatile. Some compromises are made for this versatility. It all boils down to what you think is most important - Space or machinable area. Pick one.



- There have apparently been several generations of ShopBots over the years - PRT, the current PRS, and possibly some sub-versions. Is there a document that lists the general history of ShopBot machines? I've found some references to a few things that have been changed, but this is unclear to me.

There is no list. If you are looking for a used machine, stick to either a PRT or PRS. Forget the PR & Cable Drive tools. There are 2 drive systems on these tools; Standard & Alpha. Standard is open-loop and Alpha is closed loop. Both perform well, although the Alphas do give higher performance from their more powerful motors. There were changes to both models with some improvements made in later production years, that would be more desirable, but without looking at a specific tool, it would be too verbose to explain.



- If buying used, is there a certain age range that's desirable? It appears the newer PRS machines have a USB interface and the PRTs are RS-232?

- Are there gotchas to buying used?

See above. Stick to 2004 and newer, Alpha preferred. All Alpha tools and 4th generation PRT tools (4G Standard models) used USB. Some direct USB A/B plug; others USB to Serial conversion.

There are gotchas with everything...I'd recommend a pre-purchase inspection on anything that you bought so you know what you are getting. If buying used, depending on the model, it may also be possible to purchase a SB warranty. You may also need to upgrade your CAD/CAM depending on the model.


Hope that helps, I'm sure others can add to what I wrote.

-B

[curtiss]

...My shop is 32' X 21', and I have a couple large machines already in there -

You already have ...way more room.... than most botters. May have to put some machines on rollers if needed.


A history of the machines would be very handy for everyone, I hope they are working on it. At least the past 10 years or so.

Download a demo copy of Aspire of Vectric and watch the tutorials, but the best thing would be to visit another shop nearby.

[myxpykalix]

When i bought my 5'x10' Shopbot i shoved it in a 16'x24' shop with a tablesaw 20" planer, 8" jointer, 17" bandsaw and various other tools along with benches. Needless to say you had to turn sideways and "schooch" to get around.
I built a 16'x24' addition and have soon run out of room there too.

There are guys here who can manage a lot of tools in small spaces very effectively.....I'M NOT ONE OF THEM! So it's more about your discipline then space. Take the advertised deminsions of whatever machine you're interested in and add at least 2 more feet to each side for operation and clearance.

You want to orient your machine so that the short side of the machine is closest to your opening where you bring material in. If you have different machines between the door and the bot you will be lifting material over and around.
The idea is you will be able to come in and slide it onto your table.

[Bob Eustace]

As a Buddy owner I can only aggree with Bradys suggestion that you look at the Buddy 48 by 48 fixed table. The big problem with the normal Buddy is you cant easily do anything on end (tenons, dovetails etc). Its also challenging to fit vacuum without losing Z clearance. They also need much more space. Other than that they are a solid rugged machine that causes about zero problems.

[adrianm]

With property and rental prices in the UK I can only dream of shops the size some of the guys on here have.

I have 1ft clearance down the front and right hand side of my 'bot and 2ft on the back. As it's right at the back corner of the shop so there is about 20ft of space to the left side for loading 8x4 sheets onto.

The trick is to layout everything else in the shop so that you get a sheet slid on without too much hassle. I made my bench the same height as the 'bot so I can slide material on using that.

I'm glad I went for an 8x4 as, now I've got the shop layed out, it's much easier than trying to cut a sheet down to 4x4 for a smaller 'bot.

[chunkstyle]

Hi TJ

My shop is apx. 24x28 so not much different in size. Just finished cutting to good sized kitchens at the same time. It does involve careful planning but my 4x8 Prs shares space with 10" cabinet saw, 2 shapers, delta drum sander, Oneida dc, full drill press, radial arm saw, scm edgebander, 16" bandsaw and other stuff I'm forgetting. Can't imagine having bot tight to wall for what I do but others are managing. You might find that those support tables surrounding your saw are no longer necessary if you do get a bot. I got rid of mine, set up similar to what you have, since the bot took over the sheet stock task almost entirely. A good material cart for parts coming off the bot is a must for me also. Finally, when the pile of sheet material parked in front of the bot gets eaten up it becomes an empty bit of floor space to start staging cabinets for delivery as they come off my assembly bench. Keeping everything mobile is also key, including my bench.
I never use my bot as a work bench.
Good luck with it.

[BTP]

My shop is 20x25 with very high ceilings.
I have a 4x8 machine.
I have a double router table that is 40" x 72".
I have 36" wide x 18 foot long pallet shelving.
I use my pallet stacker to put my double router table & other machines on the top of the pallet shelving when not in use.

All tools, and tables I have are either on wheels, or are able to be moved with a pallet truck.

[khaos]

My shop is 20x25 with very high ceilings.
I have a 4x8 machine.
I have a double router table that is 40" x 72".
I have 36" wide x 18 foot long pallet shelving.
I use my pallet stacker to put my double router table & other machines on the top of the pallet shelving when not in use.

All tools, and tables I have are either on wheels, or are able to be moved with a pallet truck.

I'd love to see some pics of this. Maybe get some space ideas.

[TJ Cornish]

TJ,
Welcome to the SBF. Many of us have been where you are now, so hopefully you will be able to get the answers you seek.

I was there 13 years ago and bought my first SB as a maybe someday 'Plan B' - We all got laid off so, Plan B became Plan A a year after I purchased.

Thanks for the welcome. Having a backup source of income is indeed attractive.



Don't overlook a PRS4848 machine. It is a sweet little machine with all the same stuff as the larger tools & you can index a 4x8' sheet on it if need be. Unless you were planning on cutting a lot of full sheets (like a cabinet shop), than I would really consider this tool.
I hadn't considered this. Is there a good video or document that demonstrates this procedure?



Whoever suggested [using the bot as a workbench] should be beaten with a wet noodle. This is a poor idea, although many of us are guilty of it from time to time in small shops. Don't plan on using it as a regular workbench or table. Instead, route yourself out some knock-down table supports and a top that can be stowed away.
That is likely what I would do to make the space. I have 3 of the Festool MFT tables which are really flexible, and could probably become my primary workbench.



The BT tools are versatile. Some compromises are made for this versatility. It all boils down to what you think is most important - Space or machinable area. Pick one.

It seems the 48X48 gantry machine would likely be a better choice than a Buddy for me at the very least, if indexing on the sheet is indeed easy. Storing and lifting a 10' power stick with surface seems unwieldly for a one-man shop, and the amount of time to dig the machine out and position it for a big sheet seems daunting.



There is no list. If you are looking for a used machine, stick to either a PRT or PRS. Forget the PR & Cable Drive tools. There are 2 drive systems on these tools; Standard & Alpha. Standard is open-loop and Alpha is closed loop. Both perform well, although the Alphas do give higher performance from their more powerful motors. There were changes to both models with some improvements made in later production years, that would be more desirable, but without looking at a specific tool, it would be too verbose to explain.

Hope that helps, I'm sure others can add to what I wrote.

-BThanks very much for your reply. I appreciate it.
TJ

[TJ Cornish]

Thanks also to everyone else for the replies. I could see myself becoming guilty of machine bloat and filling every inch of shop with iron, but I think that would be a bad move for me, as I sometimes have to work on large projects and need the assembly space. I am glad to see that a number of you have made it work in a similar-sized space.

TJ

[GeneMpls]

Hi TJ- I have an operating PRS in Blaine Mn if you would like to see an
actual machine. I also work pretty much 7 days a week so I am pretty
available. Call 763dot780dot1494 and ask for Gene

[BTP]

I'd love to see some pics of this. Maybe get some space ideas.

You should see it on container day.
I have 400 sheets of HPL plywood coming in on the 18th. It will be a nightmare for a week.
But thanks to my double router table I built (you can see it in top left on shelf)
I can cut,trim, and t-mold 1600 tables in 60 hours.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19081&stc=1&d=1381327948

[TJ Cornish]

Hi TJ- I have an operating PRS in Blaine Mn if you would like to see an
actual machine. I also work pretty much 7 days a week so I am pretty
available. Call 763dot780dot1494 and ask for Gene

Thanks for the generous offer. I'd love to stop by sometime.

[Joe Porter]

TJ, the operation of indexing the material is covered on the Vectric website under tutorials. It is called "Tiling" and allows you to make two or more tool paths to accommodate your table and material size. As far as the X axis is concerned, you will get seamless transitions as long as you are accurate in your indexing of the part. You can also Tile smaller material to assemble a large display if you are good at joining the small parts together. If you search the Vectric Forum you will se a recent example of this....joe

[GeneMpls]

Thanks for the generous offer. I'd love to stop by sometime.

Any time- I love shopbot talk. Gene

[genek]

Tj shop bots tj will be giving a class on indexing today.. It is from 1 to 3. It is on line contact shop bot ask for tj christian get him to send you the link so you can join in the class.

[BTP]

I'd love to see some pics of this. Maybe get some space ideas.

just got my container

400 sheets of laminated plywood. As you can see, I got my work cut out for me.

1 man 1 bot:D

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=19172&stc=1&d=1382530708