Employees

[bleeth]

Is it just around this part of the country or are you guys who have shops with employees going nuts trying to find craftsman who know what the hell they are doing?
I don't have a single person who hasn't worked in the business for less than 10 years and 2 with over 20 years. Yet none of them seem to be able to remember from one minute to the next what they are supposed to be doing. If I have a preconstruction meeting and go over the drawings inch by inch pointing out anything that isn't standard construction, when they are building it they are still completely lost and constantly forget what we discussed in the meeting. If I ask them how long it will take to finish something up and they say an hour, three hours later they are still at it. And what's worse, when I look at it when they tell me an hour, I see an hours worth of work left.
When I interview pre-hiring I go over tools. They all tell me how they have all their own tools. Then they show up with one screwdriver, a speed square, and a 20 dollar Harbor Freight screw gun.
There is, of course, three things they always know instinctively. When it's break time, when it's lunchtime and when its time to go home.
In discussions with other shop owners in the area, whether they are in casework or other trades, they all say the same thing. "What happened to the people in trade work that do it because they love it?"
So I'm just wondering: Where in this country did the dedicated craftsman go? Are there any new ones coming out that actually want to learn? Does anyone know why the productivity in America is crashing and we are fast on our way to becoming a 2nd rate economy?

Dave

[myxpykalix]

A lot of people know how to game the system so they have the attitude "hey if you don't like the way i work i'll just go on unemployment, and make just as much".

It's too easy nowadays to get paid to do nothing which bleeds into employees attitudes. There is no pride in workmanship or loyalty.

I can remember one girl who worked for me and my competitor across the street offered her 10 cents more an hour (in the 80's) and she wanted me to match that, i said no. I told her if she left, she couldn't come back. She left and went to work across the street.

She was back in a week trying to get her job back. I said, you should have thought about the pay advances, interest free loans, pick of the schedule, free movie rentals and all the other perks you got (that she didn't get across the street). I never let her back.

Part of Dave's story sounds like either a lack of respect or laziness on their part. Either they figure they can get away with slacking off or are just stupid. It is hard to find good workers nowadays.
That's why i think i would hire an old guy over a young punk. A forth thing they know is when it is payday.:eek:

[jTr]

Dave,
This is why I work alone. Many would argue that I should get up to speed and get some help. Problem is, by bringing anyone else on board, the dynamics change, and the quality of attention and execution of work is quickly diluted. I've done pieces for several different owners of small companies who have firmly advised me to avoid employees as long as I can, with many stories similar to yours.

My solutions:
- Get a shopbot for "mule" work in the shop
- Jobsite work requiring multiple helpers: sub out one man re-modelers who have a similar passion for accuracy and some "skin in the game".

I've been fortunate enough to accomplish both of the above. Working with each other instead of for each other seems to produce better results with much less baggage.
It appears to me the best people eventually end up working for themselves, especially when weighing the cost of living versus pay scale in my neck of the woods. There certainly are shortcomings and limitations to this, but for now, I've settled for them in lieu of the other set of headaches.

Ultimate question I've had to ask myself:
Am I in this to exercise a set of business and human resource management skills to grow an organization, or do I want to make a reasonable living while retaining a reasonable level of sanity as I enjoy exploring the creativity involved with this vocation?

I may be wrong, I may be right, but I've made my decision. For now, I need to cut to the chase - the boss is breathing down my neck....:D

jeff

[Mark Farris]

Hey Dave I'm with you. I don't run a shop with employees anymore, but I do manage a custom homebuilders field work for my day job. It is the same problem here. The younger kids aren't interested in learning a trade unless it involves middle management pay and air conditioning, and the rest of my subcontractor base is getting old like me. I'm afraid I'm part of the problem by raising kids who don't know how to start at the bottom and who feel entitled because we didn't want them to have it as rough as we did. Wait another 10 years and there will be no one unless our generation acts. Somehow we are going to have to try to lure the younger generation back to the trades with better training programs and incentives than we have now; maybe a free tattoo or piercing? All this while we struggle to make a profit with increased material costs, insurance, financing, blah blah blah. Somehow our generation is going to have to band together and work on this or I don't see anything changing. I have been in the cabinetmaking / building business all my life and I have a lot of knowledge to offer if we can find a way to share it, and if anyone is interested in learning.

Frustrated in Florida,
Mark

[coryatjohn]

The bottom line:

You can teach someone a skill. You can teach someone to work. You can't teach them to care.

From my personal experience, the people who do care usually are frustrated as employees so they start their own business.

[curtiss]

There are about one million children with Autism and 10 million with ADHD.

Both have the same 4 to 1 /boy to girl ratio. The CDC has no idea as to the cause of this epidemic.

http://www.followingvaccinations.com/

[cwshop]

I found there are 3 choices with employees:

1. Let the employee do the job wrong the first time, then do the job right your self while the employee is watching. Pay for material twice. Pay your employee twice. If you’re very very lucky you end up with a profit.

2. Do the job right yourself one time while the employee watches you. Pay for material once. Split profit with the employee.

3. No Employees – Do the job right one time and collect all the money.

I work by myself now. But, in past most all my employees where really good help!
Knock On Wood!

[khaos]

Here is a short video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8) to help you deal with the millennials. :D

HTH,

[dlcw]

Maybe all their brains are fried from drugs. :eek:

I won't hire for a number of reason, but the top reason is simple: it is almost impossible to find anyone these days with any work ethic whatsoever.

I think Jack is right in that people take the attitude that if they take a job, they can do crappy work, get fired, then sit on the couch smoking pot, collecting money from those who work hard for it. Unfortunately it is becoming more and more common. :mad: :mad:

[bob_reda]

The first thing you have to keep in mind is that no employee, no matter how good they are, is going to look at your business the same way you do. Secondly, most just work for the money. So if they are making minimum wage, that is what you get, and should expect a large turnover, these are the ones that will go where the money is higher. Most good employees are already working for someone. Most youngsters today don't want to do manual labor, but that is where the jobs will be in the future. I am a retired union plumber. We cannot fill out our apprentice classes, a 5 yr course, that at the end, they will be making $30 an hr plus health benefits and pensions.

Go figure.

Bob

[don62]

my only challenge in you initial post is '20 dollar harbor freight screw gun' - i do not think you are being fair to HF - i for one think that many things from HF work longer and cost less than most employees! had a wood shop years ago and finding decent employees was near impossible - end up selling the place and now live quietly and happily with nothing but my good ole shopbot - and of course a super wife - but then she is not allowed near the bot!

[bcondon]

Dedicated craftsman have been put down for 30 years.

I started to be an electrician, got my Associates in Power engineering but went on to get my BSEE because I LOVED to design building and infrastructure. Sad but the colleges were teaching digital electronics and it did not relate to me.

I ended working for the nuclear industry, was programming systems that collected weather data, radiation data and reported that to the NRC. I quit school and my boss let it be known that an Associates was not enough to work there and said I needed to get back into school, nights was OK and the company would pay for my education.... wow

I ended getting my MBA because I wanted to understand why customers bought products from computer companies and the marketing of those products.

SO 40 years later, as an example, 420 mechanical engineering students graduated from Northeastern University in Boston last year and under 20% got jobs and their education cost roughly 175K for a 5 year coop education

--------

In my town, we have one of the top 10 schools in Massachusetts.... wicked smaht, highly educated... but the competition is crazy for college (4% entry in private colleges, 25% entry into the state schools)

SO we have a collaboration with 16 other towns for the Technical school. It costs the town (I am guessing) about $1M per year. It is an excellent school and I have taken culinary classes there to kick my artistic side (as oppose to my engineering side of brain into gear)

I think we have about 10 kids that go and the school is looked down on. When I got my associated, it was to be an electrical contractor. I look at the trades today as being as good or potentially better than a college education. If you have a business sense, there is no reason you can not start your own company, have a team work for you and make a wonderful living but when you speak to parents or kids, the dirtiest they are willing to get is pencil sharpener dust on them.

I look around and find the young adults that want to buy a house are clueless and everyone wants the perfect house.... no work please... I am thinking of starting a contract business dedicated to young adults to educate and fix the house.

We have completely lost this generation from knowing basic woodworking, basic mechanical, basic electrical and basic plumbing. I am lucky because my younger son is an industrial engineer getting his MBA on a free ride from a local college because he has big dreams, but he does his own car repair or will look at it at least. He is frugal so when he had to fix his heater in his Camry (1997), he looked up the problem and the part was $29., the dealer wanted $325 to fix the problem.

I have good friends that are excellent carpenters and they did the external framing while I did plumbing, electrical, heating. The electrical inspector said I can work for his company anytime!

I think that with the economy staying low (I do not see a recovery for the average American because we are letting every come into the country, lower the earning potential of a job - and the American kids need to get off their butt and compete if they want a job) so I feel that MY kids will do better than I but for a typical family, I see that the kids will not do as well as their patents. In the Northeast, it is hard to find a good plumber or electrical and they are making top notch money and yet, you still can not
get through to them.

One experience at Northeastern: NU is a coop school which means you essentially go to school for 4 years but in the summer and a 5th year, you work in your field (if you can find a job). SO my son was applying (and I had gone there which got me my coop job in the nuclear industry). A parent of a child was asking each professor "HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GUARENTEE THAT MY SON WILL GET A TOP ENGINEERING JOB DURING COOP?" Each professor tripped over their own words so when they asked the 3rd professor this question (there were 7 sessions), I asked my son for permission to speak... he reluctantly said YES.

I said that coop assignments are REAL JOBS. You COMPETE for them.
Has your son every worked outside of the house?..... No
Is your son extrovert enough to interview?... He has never interviewed
Does your son have the capability to follow directions given by someone except you..? He did not know

I said that his assignment was for his son to get A job, any job and work at it all summer and spring and to do his best, otherwise he will either be unemployed during coop or working as a construction laborer.

The father did not ask the question again...

I am VERY concerned for this country right now and it is our attitude much more than our abilities. If all the jobs were connected to video systems, our kids will do great.


sigh

[bleeth]

I appreciate your feedback.
First note that I sure pay much more than "Minimum wage", and I also buy some Harbor Freight tools and can tell you from direct comparison that they are not the quality of well made tools, but many times it is worth buying them for occasional use or for others to use since it is typical that most workman today disrespect company tools. But hand-tool evaluation discussion is for another topic. I think my point was understood.

Moving on; I agree that the fault does lie somewhat in our education system, and somewhat in our government's (and I don't just mean this administration) propaganda of entitlement/jingoism, and also the difference in parenting today.

We all know many school systems in the country have reduced or eliminated industrial arts programs, and the tech schools have also changed their thrust.

I also agree that many of the most talented decide to become self-employed themselves, but not every craftsman wants to be a business owner.

And although I was a Union man for quite a piece of my life (Shipwrights Local 1184 in Seattle) I can also put some of the blame on Unions stressing benefits and organizational strength over training.

I have no issue with whether an employee is first or fifth generation citizen. Darned near none of us have our family's roots only in this country. In fact, I learned much of my craft as a marine carpenter from men who were from Cuba and the best foreman I ever had came from Cape Verde.

So it seems the consensus so far is a general agreement that regardless of geographic area of the country motivated craftsman seem to be disappearing.

I call that a dirty rotten shame.

[MogulTx]

Dave.

Hold on. This generation is just now coming alive. I think they will surprise you. I am training a ton of young men right now. And what didn't look very promising, is starting to look really good. It takes time and LEADERSHIP and inspired motivation.

They also need to have a little pep in THEIR step and a strong desire to succeed....

... but watch. There are SOME that will stand out. I guarantee it.

Monty

[Burkhardt]

I am originally from Germany where craftsmanship and proper apprentice education is still valued and and being a master craftsman largely regulated by law (although not as it used to be and many specialties just died out).

I suspect the motivation for crafts work is diminished here for various reasons:
- the smart and skilled kids get higher paying jobs elsewhere or go self-employed soon
- the less capable kids may not like getting their hands dirty and find other less challenging jobs in service and retail. A few just elect to sit on their hands as mentioned.
- many craftsman jobs are searched out by immigrants (nothing wrong with that in principle, I am an immigrant, too). But it tends to suppress wages, many are not well educated and leave a negative image of lower-class job with other kids. Here in SoCal the construction industry and related jobs are probably 90% or more hispanic. Once there is such an imbalance it tends to reinforce itself.
- there is little legal framework to prevent underachievers from entering the profession and ruin the reputation.
- the customer base for hand crafted items has gone upscale and become smaller. Most people (or their parents) who used to buy hand made (or at least US made) stuff get it nowadays for a fraction of the cost from Walmart, i.e. China.

[Ajcoholic]

As a self employed custom woodworker who has had several employees over the years... it is frustrating.

You need someone who has a great work ethic, treats the company as it was their own, and has a real love for what they are doing. Impossible? Nope but VERY unlikely.

I have had some really good guys work for me over the years. The fellow that bought my old shop in 2010 started working for my father as a student in 1991. Went through college, came back to work full time and was a prized employee for many years.

My father had several really good guys over the years as well, but as was stated, eventually they went out on their own or went to work as management for a larger company for more $$ than we could pay.

I find young people today dont have a clue what my business is about. It isnt "Fine Woodworking Magazine"... you have to be productive, do great work and do it fast. :)

I dont envy people that have to hire lots of guys. I find it hard enough to have a full timer and a helper I can count on.

[Burkhardt]

Hey Dave, I think you got me completely wrong here....

I am not looking down on anybody no matter where they came from. But I also know a lot of people do. And if there is an impression that some jobs are for low paid immigrants that may make them less attractive for other people.

I was just trying to find an explanation for the prevalence of ethnicity in certain professions.

As for Turks (or more recently Africans or Eastern Europeans) in Germany that is a somewhat similar situation. There are a similar integration issues like here for Hispanics but I am not aware of specific industries they dominate. At least the Turks revived the small neighborhood groceries again that were absent for many decades and their fast food is vastly superior to the old German french fry joints or the US based franchises.

As for the legal frame against underachievers I meant a structured education with exams. You can not become a journeyman if you don't pass the tests (practical and academic). And without that you can not work in certain jobs. And you can not operate some business without the master craftsman qualification. All that is obviously monopolized by the trade business guilds and against the free enterprise model but it keeps the standards up.

[donek]

We raise our kids to believe that they deserve a better job and more income than we had or made. Eventually that results in a society that believes they are above manual labor.

I once had an employee that told me the American Dream was to be rich. I always thought the American Dream was the freedom to pursue your dreams. These fundamental discrepancies in basic concepts is a huge problem.

Finding good help is next to impossible. I do tend to hire older these days although I have a young woman working for me who is endlessly curious and will some day make an excellent fabricator. I've begun taking a different approach than blaming them for getting it wrong and started laying the blame on myself. Let's face it, this is the labor force we have to work with, so how do we engineer a situation that makes us and them successful. Documented processes take time to develop, but eliminate the employees excuse for getting it wrong. If their job is to follow the process outline every time they make a part, you simply point out that they failed to follow the process that any monkey could follow a couple times and they start following it.

You aren't paying them enough for the job because they really aren't up to the job, so invest that money in automation. Buy another CNC, a power feeder, or get creative with a jig or fixture that both improves the quality of the work and reduces the skill required to perform it.

Start by finding the one thing in your operation that takes the longest to train someone to do. Then buy or invent a tool that will eliminate the need to spend more than 5 minutes training someone.

Unfortunately, we have to adapt to what's available.

[Ajcoholic]

The thing is, woodworking isn't manual labour. I think I've been blessed in a way. I went to university for three years of a 4 year science degree, trying to please other people in my life- before I decided to quit and pursue three years in woodworking college. My father never even suggested I take up the trade until I wanted to on my own. Then I could see he was pleased. I have two sisters who are an md and a phd, and my wife and many friends are md's. I have always looked upon what I do as a trade/craft/art and I know the stigma isn't that woodwork is somewhat below a professional career.

Today kids need to understand that trades keep this world functioning so to speak. They are not a depository for those who fail at other things.

[donek]

The thing is, woodworking isn't manual labour. I think I've been blessed in a way. I went to university for three years of a 4 year science degree, trying to please other people in my life- before I decided to quit and pursue three years in woodworking college. My father never even suggested I take up the trade until I wanted to on my own. Then I could see he was pleased. I have two sisters who are an md and a phd, and my wife and many friends are md's. I have always looked upon what I do as a trade/craft/art and I know the stigma isn't that woodwork is somewhat below a professional career.

Today kids need to understand that trades keep this world functioning so to speak. They are not a depository for those who fail at other things.

I think just about everyone here agrees with you, but the majority of our society will not. That's where the problem lies.

[CNYDWW]

This comes up when we just hired a "Skilled Craftsman" at work. I'm a young buck by many standards and i do my best to set myself apart from the rest. This gentleman came in and I a) don't have to baby sit him b) he actually knows how to use the tools :eek: c) Has a good work ethic. He also is very eager to learn from even me who's 2/3 his age. Comparing this new guy to others that have come through that can't tell the difference between a foot pedal to use the mobile base on a saw or a power switch (five min after you show him that is.)

I told someone just the other day when i went to measure for some new cabinets for my father's house that if i own another business, no employees. (he was a mover helping my sister move into the house). He mentioned i must have a reason and i just replied "and plenty of them".

If you can wade though all the "promises" and the self entitlement everyone seams to have now days to find the few good employees. Then my friend, you are lucky.

Regards
Randy

[knight_toolworks]

Don't forget that you have to take into account of how good of a boss are you? it's easy to blame the worker but it takes two to make it work.

[Ajcoholic]

I think just about everyone here agrees with you, but the majority of our society will not. That's where the problem lies.

I dont know about that (that being said I dont live in the USA, perhaps in Canada things are slightly different?)...

I know I have worked for many professionals in my life (a lot of doctors, teachers, lawyers, and even a judge) and several have taken me aside and told me they wished when they were younger, they could have pursued something like what I do - offering creativity/engineering/etc.

The issue I do have is that in high school, the teachers still push all the "smart" kids ot university, even if they have a strong desire to work in a trade. That's what happened to me. They steer the kids who are not doing so well into trades. However in the past 10 years I do believe that things are improving. The Government here is trying to promote and entice more college education and trades VS university and professional careers.

[MogulTx]

AJ

It is pretty much the same in the US. Pretty close to the same (with small twists) in all the developed and developing countries. It is because educators are educators. They understand more education- not hand skills, and the fact that it takes engineering and VERY knowledgeable people to create some of the things we are creating.

I think a LOT of the folks here on the forum may have gone down the road of going to college for a "profession"... and found what they love in creating, instead... I am lucky in that I have two businesses that are both on the manufacturing side of things. They both offer me unusual opportunities to create things that other people have not even thought of... a fantastic situation for people like us. I have had a few days when I was unsure that we were on the most direct trail to our goals.... yet I knew that we were back and forth on that trail.... and ascending at most every turn.

[Bob Eustace]

It is pretty much the same here in Australia. We have just had a change of government after six years of going down the totally wrong track. They decided everyone should go to university, closed down most of our technical colleges and stopped a brilliant system whereby those interested in a trades career got to spend the last two years of high school learning a trade one day a week. They were taught none of the things that are useless for a trade. Our manufacturing is in one hell of a mess much the same as you guys, however our new government is business orientated and after only 100 days confidence is coming back but some damage will never be repaired.

[jerry_stanek]

I hate to say this but when my son was young I would take him to work with me and he would work ok I would show him how to do stuff and he would but he didn't like it. My daughter on the other hand liked to do that style of work.

[bleeth]

Not exactly sure why you would hate to say it Jerry, my friend.
Interest in craftsmanship work not only isn't limited by nationality, it also isn't limited by sex. Isn't it way OK if your son has other interests? Isn't it way OK if your daughter loves craftwork? Wouldn't it make you proud as punch if it turned out she had the creativity and drive to be creative like Melissa?

[bleeth]

Bob: What brought up my rant in the first place Is our government in general has abandoned recognizing creative trade work as an honorable profession many years ago, and as a result, finding such a person has become something like trying to find hen's teeth.
This denigration of the honor of trade work has infected every part of our economy. Want to take it a little further or in a different direction? How much hell has Ted gone through because the programmers of the latest releases of SB control software haven't properly checked how their code works in application? Or how many times have machines been shipped with incomplete parts kits or the wrong hardware to assemble the router/spindle package ordered? From everything I have been observing our society as a whole has let down our youth bigtime by denigrating what we know is a really rewarding way to live our lives.

[kevin]

Dave I've gone through employee like sand through a glass
I think cabinetmaking is the hardest trade to learn and also an art form how do you teach?

The standards are none from state to state or province to province .Putting grant anybody know weight per cu inch

Dave I think if i walked into your shop i would be intimidated there would be a learning curve

Up here the government is a sleep bring in the red seal program which teaches students how to make furniture When they walk into a production shop there lost

Also the problem is in small shops with the most skill tend to keep to them self with few employee spreading the word around.Then when the owner retire no more.Look at Joe if could shut my door I would work for free to learn

DAVE maybe dumb down your work I mean stations with one task .I did it with assemble of cabinet fast less mistakes

The wood work is another story

[scottp55]

Wow. Thought Dave was venting when this started.
Moving the Desktop 6 hour drive North of here when production starts, and our biggest concern was finding an operator for it that could just run my toolpaths and produce product. Had a mid-30's guy my Dad was interested in and had met up there. With 4 days notice he drove the six hours down after working his day job and then we cut and trained for 20 hours in two days while he stayed in the house to save us money. He was a whiz on the desktop and didn't have to be shown anything twice and understood wood, but program and design better. second day ended with me on the mouse and him on the keyboard, prototyping. He was only reimbursed for gas,tolls, and food. Dad and I were impressed and felt lucky. Now I feel like I won the lottery after reading this. Maybe they grow them different in Northern Maine 6 miles from Canada. Fingers crossed for our first employee, but I have a good feeling.

[Brian Harnett]

There is a lot more factors than those lazy kids, I have worked with many in my age bracket that have no work ethic and some fresh out of high school with high motivation.

The last few generations are at fault eliminating shop and tech classes in high schools cutting Boces budget certainly have not helped, I am at a point in my business I could hire but I wont not so much as not getting the right help, I don't think I would be a good boss.

I sub a lot for a contractor who treats his employees extremely well good pay but even more so a great work environment his guys will bend over backwards for him and slackers will not be tolerated by the working group.

[Ernie Balch]

Kids are supervised and protected from danger until they are adults. They are not allowed to make mistakes on their own. Even sports are controlled by safety conscious adults. Schools and testing teaches kids to never make a mistake. Making mistakes carries a penalty so don't take a risk. This is why you see people that have never dared to try to fix anything.

A kid out of school has lots of bad habits and no experience combined with an instant gratification expectation. I am amazed that some of them actually do turn out ok.

[bleeth]

Kevin: If you walked into my shop you would be running the joint within a week!

And of course, it isn't just our trades. This morning's paper had a front page article in the business section detailing a survey by The Associated General Contractors trade group that "73 percent of construction firms were having trouble finding craft workers." It went on to talk about how many skilled workers left the area, changed careers, gave up, etc. through the recession and this is certainly part of the issue.

Yesterday I went to a local optometry center to line up a new pair of glasses. It was a sudden decision and I decided to go to a different shop then I had been using as the last couple of times I had not been happy with their service. I called ahead and the store owner, who answered the phone, graciously told me that although the Dr. was booked for the afternoon if I came in at 3:45 he would see that I got served. So I did. After the Dr's assistant had me fill out the intake form and gave me the preliminary tests, the Doctor reviewed the notes she had made and said "Let's go back in the pre-exam room. There's another test I want to give you." It was pretty obvious the assistant had simply forgotten to administer it, even though the room contained only 3 pieces of equipment, and all patients are to get tested at each station. Then when we went into the exam room, he had to excuse himself and go tell her to upload the results of the tests so he could review them. He did a fine job of going through the prescription determination and I went out to the store to start looking for a pair of frames. The owner's assistant came over, asked my what type of frames I wanted, and when I answered pointed me to a rack and said, "All the ones we have with clips are there. Let me know what you pick" and walked away. Within seconds, the owner came over, and started helping me with my selection and talking over the options for lenses. It was clear that he liked his clients to get actual customer service, and he came over when he saw his assistant hadn't been doing so.

So here we have another perfect example of what we have in our industry. Folks who are motivated and become business owners, and employees who really don't pay attention or learn to do their jobs properly.

Yes Scott, I am venting. But NOT just to get it out of my system and feel better for it. I do appreciate the suggestions being made on how others deal with this and am paying attention to each reply. We have two sides of the equation. First, what are the causes of the issue, and second, what can we do to overcome it in our own businesses.

The degradation of the quality of the average employee did not start under the current Federal administration, and the causes are not limited to Federal mandates. Local schools are controlled by local governments. Parents raise, or don't raise, their children how they want. People who come here from other countries choose whether to stay isolated within groups of their own background, or actively learn what they need to to assimilate into our society.

In my opinion, one of the biggest causes of the dumbing down of our schools has been the concentration on teaching to the test for advancement to the next grade. The standardized tests, which we have had as far back as I remember, used to be used as a measurement of achievement. Now they are such a strong portion of the grading that teachers have to act as test tutors more than educators. Public school funding in this state has been cut, cut, cut, and then the worsening performance levels are used as an excuse to lobby for funding "charter" schools run privately. Urban schools stress college as the only worthy goal for a student. You guys who live Rurally can chime in on this with your take on it.

We have a few friends with younger through college age kids, and out of about ten kids only one of them has ever had a side job while in school.

[rcnewcomb]

Let me offer another potential for employees: have you considered released felons?

I'm serious.

The previous state I was in, the prison had a section with state of the art computer controlled metal working equipment making parts with 0.0001" tolerances. The equipment had been paid for by various local manufacturers that needed overflow capacity for large jobs. It was considered a great privilege for an inmate to get assigned to the shop. They were taught how to use state of the art equipment and had to have real attention to detail.

Yes, you have to do your due diligence. Find out what has motivated them to turn their life around and ask them how that has been working on a day to day basis. If they don't have a good answer for that then pass on them and talk to someone else.

If you are careful in your selection you will find someone who doesn't want to go back to their old way of living. A key part of that is finding a job that pays well enough to support themselves. This is someone who will be grateful for being given a chance. They also know that screwing up can get them thrown back in prison.

It doesn't work every time, but that can be said of hiring people in the general public as well.

It is worth investigating. At the very worst you will find out how your tax dollars are being spent.

[rej]

I already have an idea about how my tax dollars are being spent.
but that is way off topic here.

[myxpykalix]

Having been an employer you can spot a lazy employee. I can't tell you how many times i would go into Lowes and need help getting some wood down or even some questions answered and the employees who walk by make it a point to avert their eyes as they pass even if you are staring at them.

Many times after they get a few feet past me and even after i've asked..."can you answer a question for me?" and they keep walking and turn and say "I don't work in this dept."
I get very loud with..."Well can you send someone over here who does?"

Because it is an overt act of not wanting to do their job.

Conversely on several occassions when i've gone into someplace like BestBuy and get someone who takes the time to help and has knowledge of products and makes a effort to help you I get their name and go to the management and compliment the employee so they know who is doing their job.

[donclifton]

One thing motivate employees, that's good pay and benefits. I have had employee's that made minimum wages and they could care less and had the "if I don't like this job I can get another for the same price tomorrow" attitude. But if you give someone a job with great pay and treat them right they will stay and learn.
Don Clifton

[Nancy]

Thread seems to have wandered WAY off topic of finding good employees this morning to car engines and politics.