How does a router measure up to a spindle?

[wespor]

So, I've settled on getting a ShotBot but on my budget I'm stuck between the Desktop /w spindle and a Buddy w/ router. I need to do very detailed relief carving, to make stamps for embossing leather and molds for casting urethane rubber.

With only 4" Z movement, I couldn't create very deep molds on the Desktop and from what I understand, I won't get much detail work out of a router on the Buddy. I couldn't even load a 1/16th bit into it, could I?

If anyone else has been in this position, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[jerry_stanek]

Check out this site for small bits and collets for a router

http://www.precisebits.com/

[dana_swift]

Weston- welcome! You will find answers to a zillion questions on here, and much experience :)

I have a BT-32 Alpha with a router and have never felt a loss of precision. The specs on either machine is 0.002" positional accuracy. With skill and a lot of fussing you can get 0.001". So get the largest work space you can handle. I put retractable wheels on my Buddy, so it sits firmly on the ground when cutting. I cant say that makes it more accurate, but it is certainly solid. Buddies are made from the same metal parts as the full size gantry routers, that makes them built like a tank because the length of the members is shorter making less flex.

Look on the forum to see what projects have been cut with either a buddy or a desktop. Both are fine machines. The advantage of the desktop is that you can carry it to a location and work on-site. That is hard to do with any of the larger machines. It is possible with a buddy and a lift gate or dedicated trailer.

Accuracy will probably be a little easier to obtain with the desktop. But detail will be identical.

Alpha is where to put your money if you have a few nickles you can put into it. Spindles are nice and all, I use a spindle based Shopbot sometimes and a very precision device. You can buy a lot of routers for the price of a spindle. If you cut 60hrs per week, get the spindle. But if you cut 6 hours a week a router is plenty. Both of them do excellent work.

If you buy a router, throw away the cheap wrenches that come with the router, they are made from 1/8" sheet metal and will eat your hands. Go to the hardware store and buy a pair of 1 1/8" open end wrenches. Much much nicer to use, and fit a Porter Cable collet nut just perfectly! (Dont tighten them like a gorilla, the extra lever length can tear up the router threads!)

Hope that helps!

Oh.. consider the Kent CNC dust skirt with either choice if you get a Buddy. Much better than what SB offers :) I dont think Kent makes one for the desktop, but he might.

D

[Joe Porter]

Weston, go for the Buddy with a router if need be..The router they are talking about is the Porter-Cable 7518, I believe. Anyway, it is the same router everyone puts in a router lift at a regular router table. In other words, if, someday you decide you need a spindle, it is an easy upgrade, except for price, and you will always have a nice router. Like Jerry says, go to Precise Bits for collets and nuts made specifically for the PC that will allow you to use the smallest of bits.
A new Pc router (motor only), is about $300 big ones, so shop around. Like Dana says, you can buy about 10 routers for one spindle and spindles don't last forever either....
I do own a buddy with a PC, and would dearly love to have a spindle, but it is just not worth it. Spindles are quitter, but the cutting tool usually makes up for any noise reduction, I bought a nice pair of ear muffs for about $20 and keep them close.
Good luck with your purchase decision, you will be happy with a ShopBot...joe

[dlcw]

Weston, I ran a Buddy with a router in my shop for about a month. I couldn't take the noise. With ear plugs and ear muffs I couldn't even think it was so load. I even tried to build a room around the Buddy with 2" thick foam insulation and it was still unbearable.

When running with a spindle, you don't even hear the spindle. All you hear is the actual cutting of the wood. If you have a vacuum hold down system you will hear the motors for that as well.

You can stand next to a spindle running at 15K rpm and carry on a normal voice conversation with someone.

So if noise levels are going to be an issue for you, choose carefully.

[rb99]

In a pinch you can buy a Chinese spindle for much less than an Italian spindle.

[scottp55]

Just my 2 cents. Got the desktop with spindle and glad we did. Using mainly 1/8" collet and small bits(down to 1/64) and can easily talk in a normal voice even with a Fein hepa turbo 2 going(fein only has to run at 2-3 speed to get chips unless it's a long bit). Tried using a delta 3/4 hp DC (750cfm) but even the cheap sears shopvac did a better job at chip collection(but it was a screamer and died the day before the fein arrived-love it and no itchy eyes and running nose). The only time noise is an issue is cutting the part out with the 1/4" downcut.
Impressed beyond words with the Desktops accuracy and repeatabilty. Did .2" Garamond text weds. and Thursday ran it again to clean up soe "fuzzies"-paused the cut- and could not tell where wednesdays stopped and Thursdays began except for lack of fuzzies. Was also curious because Desktop always started up and looked like it was in the indicated position. so took an 1/8" vbit and put a .03 countersink in the mdf deck at 10,10 and marked the hole with a sharpie. With the machine woken up the next morning and NOT X,Y zeroed of prox switches I watched the bit go exactly in the hole, nudged it down .005 and the sharpie mark was cut EVENLY. Do NOT trust it, but have repeated several times and it's always dead nut. Always have my finger on the spacebar and would never cut anything without zeroing, just saying. If you can live with the Z, I'd recommend it to anyone. Welcome. scott

[jerry_stanek]

I would go with the buddy as it has more options for upgrade and a bigger table. Like it has been said you can get a spindle later if yo need one and you still have the router. When I bought my Shopbot I thought all I would only need a 2x4 table but now I am glad I have the 4x8 one as I do a lot of 4x8 sheets for sign companies.

[GeneMpls]

In a pinch you can buy a Chinese spindle for much less than an Italian spindle.

I have less than $800 in a chicom spindle with watercooling
total (including alum mount bracket) for reference. Zero problems. Gene

[wespor]

I really appreciate all the replies! Sound will be a definite issue for me, our fledgling business hasn't yet left our garage and we have a very moody homeowners association. I'll have to look into the Chinese spindle because it sounds like that will be my only option if I want the Buddy.

A ShopBot sales representative told me the Desktop's resolution is .00025” compared to .015” on the Buddy, with spindles of course. I'm having trouble putting that into perspective. Is that a truly noticeable difference?

Another option I have is the get the Desktop now, do with it what I can and (if all goes well) purchase a larger ShopBot down the road. That would only be a viable option though if each tool served a distinctive purchase, the Desktop for precision work and the Buddy/Full Size for large work.

If a Buddy can do everything though, well that makes more sense. I could only fit a 24x32 into my budget though and with a Chinese spindle.

[scottp55]

2000 words.Desktop with spindle in cherry last week(excuse the cat hair). Maple and ebony are crisper. Ran program twice. Never even seen a Buddy, any body got detail work?

[cowboy1296]

Footprint was my deciding factor. Get the largest one that will fit in your garage. I have the buddy 32 with a 4 ft power stick and router. For me I like the noise (I live in the country) because when you are away from the machine you can usually tell if there is a problem.

I do mostly plaques and I am not unhappy with the detail cutting. Here is a picture of one completed coat rack.

[dana_swift]

Noise is a real issue, especially close to the machine. The cutting process creates a lot of noise too, so getting a spindle only helps a little bit.

Save some money for really good hearing protection no matter what you buy. My recommendation is NRR-III from zee medical supplies, $40 for 200 pair:

http://www.zeemedical.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=40_61&product_id=101

or search for: "NRR III TAPERED PLUG,WO/CD 200PR/BX"

These foam plugs are the best foam plugs I have found so far. Then for long cuts, I add 33db ear muffs on top of that. The result is nice and quiet in my ears. When I am wearing both layers, if I open my mouth enough noise gets in, that it makes a very noticeable effect.

All that doesn't help with the neighbors tho. My suggestion is insulate your garage door. That helps in the winter and summer also with heat/cooling. The biggest problem with noise, is you have to listen to ALL of it, you cannot walk away from a running machine. An unsupervised machine is a fire hazard. The time between smoke and flame is just a few seconds. The risk is higher when you are learning. Its not such a big problem that I would fear running it in a garage tho, just be aware.

Yes these machines make noise, so do lawnmowers, leaf blowers, etc which are much louder at your neighbors house.

They can still complain and become a real nuisance. Hopefully you get your business off the ground so you can move out of the garage.

As to 1/8" bits. I run them all the time. Most of the time actually. They cost less, and give better detail. I used the ER-11 stubby collet chuck from ENCO on my PC router. The wrenches for the ER-11 collett nut is a standard 1/2" open end. Makes bit changes really easy.

My suggestions:
Buy the PC router
Buy an Alpha BT-48 if you have room (its a pretty big machine tho!)
Buy an Aplha BT-32 if you dont. (Thats what I have)
Get a 4' powerstick in the near future after you have recovered from initial costs.
Insulate your garage door.
Buy really high quality hearing protection. Years from now you will appreciate that.
Buy good safety glasses. Stuff does get loose occasionally.
Look up Andrew Coholics excellent roller improvement for the BT table. Build one.
Buy the Kent CNC dust skirt. Even if you are using a shopvac at first.
Buy the ER-11 Collet and extenders per Brady Watsons advice:

http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2006/01/just-a-little-bit/

Read the google docs article on router bits. It can save you time and money.

Also.. plan to make throw away projects for a day or two before cutting anything valuable! Make air-cuts with no bit at first. Learn what to expect when things are running correctly.

My most important advice? Get started- you will learn all this soon enough... its not rocket surgery.

D

[Xray]

I think the noise issue is highly overrated with routers - My power vac is certainly alot louder, and in any case when the bit bites into the material is where you'll get the real noise, and this is the same regardless of which one you use. My house is about 40 ft from garage, I can barely hear it from there. But yes, its a power tool and it produces some sound.
I have done dozens if not 100's of very detailed projects with a router, I can't say for certain if they would have been even more detailed with a spindle, but I don't think it would be anything that the eyeball could perceive.
Spindles also have a time eating warmup routine that must be adhered to, routers don't. Cost wise, spindles allegedly have a far greater service life, but thats of little consolation to those that do die prematurely and the owner has to spend $1,000's to repair or replace. My router has been humming along for almost 3 years with just 1 $25 change of brushes, and I could replace the whole unit overnight for $150, whereas a downed spindle you might be waiting weeks and certainly over $1k. Chinese especially is a roll of the dice, you generally get no support, questionable warranty and as always, questionable workmanship.
I wouldn't buy a $25 grinder from harbor freight, certainly would not buy a $1k+ spindle either. If I had to have one for hard production use I'd bite the bullet and pony up for a non Chinese model, you generally get what you pay for.

BTW, I walk away from my running machine quite a bit, sometimes for hours at a time. May be a slight risk, but one of the major benefits of having an automated machine is the fact that once it starts cutting, no further intervention is required on your part, and you can do other things while its working. I figure worse that can happen is a broken bit, that wouldn't be changed if I was standing there watching it. I do have a smoke alarm that will call my cell phone if it goes off ,,, And alot of folks these days have web cams or whatnot so they can take a look at it via smart phone wherever they happen to be. But I think the notion that you have to stay in visual range at all times while its running is far fetched & unnecessary.

[dlcw]

Yes these machines make noise, so do lawnmowers, leaf blowers, etc which are much louder at your neighbors house.
D

If you have run a Dewalt 735 planer, you know how loud that is. The Buddy I had with the router was much louder then that planer.

I agree with the double layer of noise protection for your ears. I lost a lot of hearing while in the military and don't want to loose what I have left... :(

[scottp55]

Maybe beating a dead horse, But not sure people realize how quiet the Desktop with spindle is using small bits. Using a 1/8" carbide countersink(all cuts in pic done with this bit but used an old one as it was a personal job)http://www.carbideplus.com/Carbide_60_deg_1F_Countersink_p/331-001050.htm and have to listen very closely even without the Fein running to hear it cutting at .09" depth. Only 1/4" bits are loud enough to matter and for those I stick my Peltors on. Did this yesterday while my other was here and held a pleasant conversation while it was cutting the cats.

[wespor]

Was talking with Scott in PMs where he offered to cut a test piece on his Desktop. I didn't have a file ready but I found an example online of the detail I'm looking for, he suggested I post it here as well.

Not my die but the relief detail required to emboss that small typography is what I'll need. Could a Buddy with a spindle handle that?

[scottp55]

Weston, Pic I tried to PM and couldn't. font .18" approx. Guys(and Ladies) he's trying to do similar to the leather. What's the white material on the die? How does it carve?

[Brady Watson]

Router Vs Spindle...

Noise. It isn't how loud it is, it is the frequency of the noise. Porter Cables make that horrific whine, that really gets to you after listening to it for hours. Very annoying.

The air cooled Asian spindles are the same or just a little more than a 7518...and PC sold out, and manufactures them in China anyway - so do the math.

-B

[curtiss]

I saw a pair of $4,800 hearing aids a few days back, $2,400 each w/o batteries... you want to use some ear protection out there.

[myxpykalix]

Scott,
Did this yesterday while my other was here and held a pleasant conversation while it was cutting the cats.

Now that's a new use for the Shopbot i'd never thought of:rolleyes:

I've used the router for 7 years and only until you get up into the 21,000rpm does it sound like it's screaming. Like others have said you buy a quiet spindle but put a loud dust collector in there and it defeats the purpose. But even then when you shut the shop doors and get 10 feet away it is just a dull hum you hear.

I would say a majority of what i do is 3d work that takes hours of cutting usually with small bits making only small amounts of sawdust. A majority of the time i don't even use the dust collection because i have the wireless camera setup to a side monitor and just watch it work while i'm inside watching football (DA..BEARS!):rolleyes:

What it comes down to is your budget and how meticulous you are. The spindle takes more maintanance and care in operation and a router you just turn on and go.

[scottp55]

Jack, Twisted, just twisted. Everyone knows you use a low angle skew plane for cat sushi. But did my attention to"my other" when I meant my mother. One other thing , my stray cat would NOT come into the shop when running the shopvac or Delta 3/4hp DC. Since we got the Fein, if I'm using small bits she'll come in and sleep on the small workbench. Jack, my Dad has no use for cats either, yet his wife and her cat run the joint(he just pays the rent and lives there by their grace).
Dad, has two hearing aids from running his old CNC shop(heavy iron) and he wasn't even running the floor, he regrets not using hearing protection.

[Xray]

Router Vs Spindle...

Noise. It isn't how loud it is, it is the frequency of the noise. Porter Cables make that horrific whine, that really gets to you after listening to it for hours. Very annoying.

The air cooled Asian spindles are the same or just a little more than a 7518...and PC sold out, and manufactures them in China anyway - so do the math.

-B

True, hard to get away from chinese manufacture of anything, unfortunately ,,, But an outfit like PC would generally have far better quality control/support than a chinese branded tool. I have read enough horror stories to keep me away if I ever go with a spindle, I'm sure there are success stories as well. But they are cheap for a reason, and that is poor quality, materials & support.
To me, the cost of even the cheap ones does not justify their use for what I do, and its noise of operation never bothered me even slightly, in fact I can hardly even hear it over the whine of my shop vac. Too, I do alot of etching with a drag bit, and those don't require the router to even be turned on.

[shilala]

The only thing I can add, and excuse me if someone has already mentioned it...
I use 1/4" shank 1/16" ballnose endmills in my BT-48/router all the time. I like to do lots of very intricate 3d models, and use the bits to clean up and make things sharper.
It works fabulously.

[wespor]

The only thing I can add, and excuse me if someone has already mentioned it...
I use 1/4" shank 1/16" ballnose endmills in my BT-48/router all the time. I like to do lots of very intricate 3d models, and use the bits to clean up and make things sharper.
It works fabulously.

Good to know! Scott Plaisted did this test cut for me on his Desktop, do you think your Buddy is capable of the same detailed relief?

19471

For reference, this was the original stamp he was duplicating. It's a boring stamp but I need the ability to emboss typography that small.

19472

[Joe Porter]

Weston, you can always go down in size with the table on the Buddy. If I am doing 3d work, I use a small aluminum table that concentrates the work in the center of the X axis and lightens up the strain on the X motor. If I need to cut cabinet size pieces, I slide out the small table and put in a longer Power Stick and can cut up to 8' in one go. You probably can't do this with a Desk Top. Life is full of compromise, but at least you are shopping at the right place...By the way, and I hate mentioning this, but have you considered a 4X4 fixed table machine? More money still, but we are still in the talking stage...joe

[paul_z]

I use a PC router but would also use a spindle if I had one. A FYI - using a precise bits collet, I use bits as small as 0.030" on the router (with a slow ZZero routine). The only time that I broke one of the 0.030" bits is when I dropped it on the floor.

Paul Z

[rb99]

It would be nice to be able to use both. The spindle is great for when you need it, but the warm up time is a little annoying compared to the instant on of the Porter Cable.

[scottp55]

My shop is a mess, usually those nine minutes once a day is the only time I get to clean.:)

[shilala]

Good to know! Scott Plaisted did this test cut for me on his Desktop, do you think your Buddy is capable of the same detailed relief?

Absolutely. I create detailed lettering like that all the time.
You can make the angled sides at any degree you like, for even more strength to the letters. You can flatten the tops, or even flatten them and inset them so your letters looked like they were line drawn.
The options are endless.

Someone mentioned their smaller table...
Probably the single most important thing is making a nice, solid table that won't warp or go goofy on you. I used two pieces of 3/4" Baltic birch plywood, screwed, glued, stained and painted. I resurface it whenever I think I need it.
I used to work from the center of the table to avoid any trouble. Don't need to anymore. I added some raised edges to the side of my table and they converge right at 0, 0. I just slap my wood (or whatever) in the corner, screw it down, and go crazy.
I mic my wood's dimensions prior to starting, put those measurements into Aspire before I cut, and I get perfect flip operations every time.
I'm rambling, but I get excited about what the Bot can do. It is simply amazing. It takes a little bit of doing to get everything perfect, but once you do, it's clear sailing.
Good Luck, my brother!!!

[wespor]

By the way, and I hate mentioning this, but have you considered a 4X4 fixed table machine?

Ahh, you are going to confuse me more. I don't think I could safely fit that in, I run a screen printing shop out of my garage as well with a washout booth that splashes all over the place. Even at opposite ends of the room I'd be nervous. On an related/unrelated note, I'm looking forward to combining screen printing and cnc carving but that is for another thread.

I still don't kind understand the lure of the PRS over a Buddy. I worked with one at a door shop in Austin, it was a amazing but the BT48 seems much more versatile.

The BT 48" with 12" Z and the PRS 48" x 48" with 6" Z are roughly the same price. Aside from better stability, why would I give up half the Z height when they could achieve the same X and Y?

[Brady Watson]

The BT 48" with 12" Z and the PRS 48" x 48" with 6" Z are roughly the same price. Aside from better stability, why would I give up half the Z height when they could achieve the same X and Y?

A BT48 with 48" power stick requires 2 more feet of working room than the 4848 does. Plus, the bed on the PRS48 is more stable than the BT and you have more options for hold down since the table doesn't move. This makes using clamps and setting up a vac system a lot easier on the PRS48.

The taller Z seems to be an advantage at 1st glance, however - unless you are doing deep carving in FOAM or you are certain you will be using a rotary indexer (95%+ are still in box never used), then there is little advantage. The 12" Z will actually introduce more deflection when doing deep cutting and cutting dense materials than the 8" Z, which is the preferred choice. Besides, in the real world, you are really not going to be cutting material thicker than 3 or 4" anyway, so the 12" Z isn't really needed. If your primary use is engraving or v-carving, get the shorter Z.

-B

[wespor]

The taller Z seems to be an advantage at 1st glance, however - unless you are doing deep carving in FOAM or you are certain you will be using a rotary indexer (95%+ are still in box never used), then there is little advantage. The 12" Z will actually introduce more deflection when doing deep cutting and cutting dense materials than the 8" Z, which is the preferred choice.

I see, well I was hoping to keep my options open but more deflection is the last thing I want. The rotary indexer was a big draw for me though I wouldn't buy it right away. For little stuff, pens, handles and the like, the 12" isn't necessary is it? I'm assuming not.

BTW I'd like to thank you all again for all of this advice, I'll be sure to pay it forward when I can.

[Brady Watson]

No problem, Wes. Like all good friends, nobody here 'keeps score' (that I know of!) :D

-B

[wespor]

Another small issue with the PRS that I see is installing and removing the small stable platform others suggested rather than an MDF spoil-board for precision cuts. I would need to unbolt and physically remove the 4'x4' MDF sheet every time I needed to do detail work instead of just swapping out a PowerStick, right? Not to mention the center of the machine would be harder to reach. Trying to talk myself out of the PRS now, heh.

True, a vacuum table would be easier though.

[Brady Watson]

Wes,
No - You do not need to remove the table bed. Just surface it flat with the machine & it will be true. Then do your precision machining. You would do the same thing on the BT - no difference. Material moves with temp/humidity & you can't get away from that. Instead of machining the whole 48" square area, you can optionally add a smaller sacrificial piece of material that you would flatten with the machine and work that way.

Hold down is the biggest challenge with CNC outside of getting a good grasp of CAD/CAM. No method fits all machining situations, so you will employ a number of different methods depending on the job.

I prefer a moving gantry to a moving table, except for a few specific situations. The 4x4 is a sweet little machine - and it is totally possible to index longer sheets, like a 4x8 for larger work from time to time.

-B

[shilala]

Wes, to add to what Brady said, something that's usually not relayed is "Make sure your rollers are raised up to the underside of your table and tightened carefully before surfacing the spoilboard."
It sounds like common sense, but I'm guilty of forgetting to do it.

I chose the BT48 because I have limited room in my shop. That sounds silly because it takes up more space to make a full stroke than does a PRS48. Thing is, I seldom, if ever, make a full stroke (although I do have room to do it without moving my bot). Most of my stuff is maybe 24" in the X, so the table only moves a short ways. When I'm not using the machine, I leave the table back away from the front of the machine, leaving me more walking space between the Bot and my table saw.
If I need more space, I can just take the table off altogether, lean it against the wall, and I gain lots of room.
I use a 6' powerstick for my 48x48 table, and I have a 4' powerstick that I just don't use. I could put a shorter table on it for a nice small stroke and smaller work area, but haven't found need since I removed the ratty spoilboard that was on there when I got the machine.
Mind ya, my shop is in my 2 car garage, all remodeled and engineered to use every square inch. I even went so far as to build nesting, rolling tables that I can drag out from under my workbench to make more workstations when needed.
You could say that I have "spacious close quarters". :)

If I'd had more room, I'd have bought a Bot with a moving gantry. It just wasn't in the cards for me. Fortunately the BT48 has done everything I ever wanted to throw at it. If length of cut is a consideration, I factor that in when I'm designing a project so I can work around it.
If I needed to work 8' sheet goods all day I'd totally be screwed. Fortunately I don't.
I want to make 8' decorative moulding soon, and for that I'll just index the table and hope for the best. I'm sure I'll get it worked out in no time.
/ramble
Hope this helps!!!