KD KItchen Trouble

[kevin]

I finished the job in the picture below ,I posted this last Friday

They the client where refereed by another client who I had respect for .They where allowed a low down payment on the kitchen until they closed the condo .I finished asked a few times for my payment

I'll try to be vague because this is a public form .They called a installer there words
He said
"I called for a second opinion from an installer and he said the cabinet rails were not the same size---I'm assuming you know what that means. Both are just not proper to me but must be to you, or else you would not have said you were finished. I had a quote today on fixing the corner unit--he said it would cost me $1000.00 to remove the bulkhead and mounding to cut it properly to fit the corner doors. "
:He also said to remove and re-align the upper cabinets would be another $2000-$4000 as it would all have to be removed and it was labor intensive"

They are paying me minus 1,000 nothing in writing or no name .I'am going back there Monday .To say I'm speechless is an understatement

What I'm asking is my fellow cabinet maker to give an opinion on the photo and how much would kitchen like that be worth across the country.You can pm if you want to thanks in advanced

Also nobody call a cabinet rail its a revel which is 1 inch to cover the door its very hard to do its either right or wrong .There are flaw in any work done by hand but they didn't pick it up ,The cable beside the fridge we followed a uneven wall not mentioned
Cheap customer trying to pull a fast one ,The problem in this area is the trades are treated bad here like crooks to many diy show.
This job is at a condo they ask one of the handy man for the opion all the good trades people go to Alberta whats left are kids with little experince trying to prove something
I've had people before ask for negative option on project to get a lower price never gave one never will

They are saying it cost 5,000 to fix and where holding back a 1,000 not very serious but its my reputation this is how I make a living

[jerry_stanek]

Not sure if this would apply to you but here we can put a lien on the condo and they would have to pay it off before they could sell it

[kevin]

Jerry there willing to pay minus 1000 you can't put a lien under 1000

They tried using we where late but that didn't work THE CONTRACTORER WHERE WORKING RIGHT TO THE LAST MINUTE

I write because time to time this happens a lot with contractors .I posted to help some one else in this situation .It hurts your reputation they get greedy feel that you didn't work hard enough for your money there going to decided the payment scheduled

I think what I'am going to do is all cabinets are paid before leaving the shop and just insulation to be paid

[steve fedor]

Is it possible to apply an overlay filler to tighten up the margin or will it compromise the door operation? Sometimes it helps to work out solutions with the client to resolve issues they have. Gorgeous kitchen design and execution.

[bleeth]

You can take them to small claims court.

Take their payment for now but don't give them a paid in full receipt. Send an invoice for the balance. Follow up with a collection notice with your intent to pursue legal collection methods and that any additional costs will be theirs.

For the future, put all proposals in writing with payment terms and have them signed. Getting a deposit check is not the same as a signed agreement. Have collection language in your proposal that all claims are to be settled by official arbitration only (the language may differ from state to state or country to country but it is pretty well standardized at this point) and the loser pays any additional costs.

A client recommended by another client is not the same as your client with whom you have a history. They are simply another new client that you don't know, and therefore needs to be treated as an unknown factor. In any negotiation the one who has the patience to stick to their position politely the longest wins. Have the job signed off on when you are done. Don't wait. When you are done, don't just tell them, have them sign that they have accepted the project. Issue a warranty in which they are required to give you the right to repair any deficiencies.

This paperwork stops most of the chiselers from even trying because they understand that you are conducting yourself professionally and therefore are more likely to hold them to their end of the agreement.

On this side of the border we also have something called a "Notice to Owner" It does vary state by state, but basically takes the form of putting the owner of the property on notice that you have the right to lien if the GC doesn't pay you. In the state where I live, you actually file it with the county and basically protects your lien rights until you release them, which of course, is when paid. No legitimate GC considers this to be anything beyond normal business, and has their own form for partial and final releases as payments are made. In another state I lived in all we had to do was send a letter to the owner and have a signed receipt of delivery.

If this happens on a regular basis then you had better believe that the word is out that you will allow yourself to be chiseled. Forget the "competition". They don't mean a thing.

Running the "business" side of a craft shop the right way can make the difference between success and failure. On a job that size a thousand bucks is most, if not all, of your net profit. The cost of filing a small calim is almost nothing.

On the execution side of things, the wide reveals between the doors on the corner cabs is an execution error. The doors are not sized correctly. Blum hardware allows this type of door to have the same 1/8" space at the front of the door as you have on the straight runs. When I install this type of corner I gang the three boxes together and then lift them into place as one unit. This minimizes fiddling with them due to wall misalignment. Some years ago I bought a crank type cabinet lift and always install the uppers first. It's worth it's weight in gold.

[jerry_stanek]

Do you have a late payment clause in there that would put you over the $1000 mark

[kevin]

Dave that's good advice I'll get more signatures .

Jerry no late payment did some extra work

I've enclosed 3 example of corner the reason is that when you go 1 inch beyond and a full overlay door you can't line up .Its hard to explain in this form .YOU CAN LINE UP WITH INLAY but I CAN'T GET THE EXTRA MONEY

There looking for an excuse to keep some of the money maybe they can buy a couch the installer is probley a family member .If it was the contractor of the condo I could sue no serious company wants to get involved with something so trivial.

I'LL PRINT THESE 3 PICTURES PLUS BRING AN EXAMPLE THE MATH I ASK TO MEET INSTALLER NO ANSWER

[bleeth]

Kevin: Your examples 2 and 3 show what I meant. You have overlay doors and a 1/8" reveal between. Notice how the crown header lines up as well. This is how we build them.
Face frame does make the math for this easier, and although pic #1 does make it easier for the install, extra finishing of the finished sides and larger cabs makes it more expensive. This design doesn't allow for low ceilings either. I also charge more for face frame cabs. It's a lot more work and I won't use 1/2" ply like the big box store cabs do.

If you draw a plan section of the cabs with doors you can then size them perfect. When I was first figuring out how to do these I drew it full size on a piece of cardboard and then did my own formula from that to use later.

That was before I knew Autocad, or Artcam.

[kevin]

There never been a compliant just fishing

[kevin]

Here is a crude drawing to explain I have full overlay door I cannot make smaller or you;ll see inside cabinet
The only other way is mounding behind door and that what 95 percent of kitchen guys do .In my case getting that built in look with out doing inlay doors will never line up.So the only way around this is doing inlay doors but I have to get extra mony thanks for the help gave ideas and also fine tune the way I'am doing things

[kevin]

drawing I never had a complaint but I know a corner cabinet is a waste of space .I don't do them only at clients request first compliant that's all they an complain about I guess it not so bad

[MogulTx]

Kevin

I would buy a kitchen from you. My wife has already seen your photos, and believe me, you are doing a fantastic job. Find the right ways to be firm and professional- and get the value you should from such a project.

And if you are ever close, and can do a kitchen for me, we will make a transaction with you and pay you the appropriate rate, as agreed. You can use my 60 x 120 w an indexer to complete the work. We will ask for communication up front and will allow you to do the magic that you do.

Don't get discouraged. Keep working on it. Stand your ground if you are able. And make solid business decisions when it gets rough.

Stay professional and strong!

Monty

[kevin]

Thank you

I posted this to help some one starting out .But I realize that is me I don't think there is any iron clad contract someone wants to change the payment scheled at the end after receiving the product your at there mercy.Which is a horrible feeling

My son is 3rd year business student is writing a better contract .Also dumb down the work faster installs

I meet a cabinetmaker 2 week who was selling his building was a little bitter but he did not modernize .i have to be carefull and not follow this path

Sorry for typos

[gene]

I would do what Dave said , Collect all you can with a smile , then invoice them for the balance due and threaten legal recourse . That is a fine looking set of cabinets.

[bleeth]

Kevin:

Attached is a drawing of how to do a corner cabinet with overlay doors and a couple of pertinent dimensions for reference. You see that none of the doors are FULL overlay. the side cabinets are HALF overlay on the hinge side (assuming you would hinge them towards the corner). The corner cabinet is also not FULL overlay, and the Blum corner hinges handle this perfectly. Your doors do overlay the cabinet everywhere and leave the appropriate gap. I have the doors 1/16" from the face of the cabinet, as is normal, and 3/4" thick. The cab doors are also 3/4" thick. I also showed some reference lines to show you how the doors are determined from the cabinet layout.

I hope this helps you next time you need to do one of these.

[kevin]

Thanks Gene for words of encouragement

Dave your business advice is rock solid I'm working on this right now .

The only problem with half overlay on the corner door is you,ll see a a small gap inside the cabinet .I had 14 and a half inch door which left which left a gap on the side which you could see inside the cabinet .I change to a 15 inch which covered all .The only way is inlay door or have the molding behind the door.

I never use a corner cabinet I fell it makes a kitchen looks dated just such a waste of space
If you look at the fridge the crown is 1inch from the doors is this a design flaw or just the math?

I request a meeting tomorrow with the installer [i doubt he'll or she will show up]but i'am armed with drawing and examples

[bleeth]

Kevin: You use their angle hinge for 45 degree positive and the plate for "maximum overlay" on the corner cabinet.
You do not need an inset door, or any additional molding.
Did you look at the drawing?

For an over fridge cabinet with fridge panels on both sides I don't use scribes either. I just make the cabinet the full width. On higher end kitchens I make "onlays" for the scribes the same height as the doors and with the same edge route and apply them to the face of the scribe attached to the cabinet so they end up flush with the face of the doors.

Your work, as I said in my first post here, is beautiful. There are some cabinet making layout standards that many use that you didn't. This is where the issues with this client are coming from. You have developed your own ideas on how to deal with certain situations. There have been different ways developed that are more commonly used. I have a feeling (correct me if I am wrong), that most of your European cabinet design knowledge has been self taught. There is nothing wrong with that, but it will at times lead to doing some things either a harder way, or in such a way that your layout looks unusual. The entire European system was developed to have a certain "standard" look and engineering to virtually any situation you run into in a kitchen. When one part of a job is done with one look, and another part of the same job has a different look it is almost always an issue with the engineering (sizing of parts and selection of hardware).

I was lucky, in that although much of my knowledge is also self-taught, I also worked in a couple large companies producing Euro cabinets and practicing all of the typical design and engineering standards that are used. I was amazed at how much I discovered I had been doing wrong previously. Corner cabinets was one of the things I had problems with. Once I learned how to do them their standard way, they became easy to build, and whether I like them or not, a good profit maker!

[kevin]

Dave thanks I did I'm not saying its not going to work I think it will .I never gave it much thought before never was an issue

What it is if I'AM SLOW PEOPLE WANT TO TAKE MONEY OFF IF I'AM FAST PEOPLE WANT TO TAKE MONEY OFF I'M MAKING TO MUCH money this happens from time to time I will try this in the shop maybe come up with a different way I think it will work with a little tweak

Also the walls in the condo are a nightmare the floors as more wave than big surf .I try Dave to deal with all though flaw to make it easier on us

Thanks Dave for you time and not fueling my anger

[bleeth]

Kevin:

Rest assured, it will!
I know you were venting from frustration, as I have been known to a time or two as well. :rolleyes:
If you don't express your challenges how will you get help?

When you get a project done quickly, make sure you tell your clients how many hours per day you worked, how you postponed other things etc, whether you did or not.

When it takes longer, make sure you tell them how challenging their special project is and although you underestimated how much work it was going to take, you will stick to the wonderful fair price you gave them.

Remember that a serious part of our job is marketing, and it doesn't end when we get the deposit.

[michael_schwartz]

The kitchen that Mr, Dunphy has built for this client represents a fine example of design, and craftsmanship.

Reveals in custom overlay cabinetry are highly subjective and should be left to the discretion of the cabinetmaker, unless specified otherwise in a legally binding contract. This is clearly an aesthetic design decision based on technical considerations relative to the price of the work. I would not consider this to be a defect. While there are other ways to execute such a reveal that may be considered by some to be more visually pleasing, this once again is entirely subjective. Every cabinetmaker, I know has a different approach to building custom cabinets.

When we talk about industry standards. Especially those related to aesthetic, and design decisions that do not affect function l have to raise the question, of what specific standard are we referring to, and how is it legally relevant. The fact remains that when it comes to custom cabinetry, there is more than one way to build a kitchen, provided the client receives the contracted scope of work.

It appears as if you have provided the client, with excellent value. Your work is the real deal, and a clear example of professionalism. Feel free to pass my remarks, along if you feel they may be of help.

Michael Schwartz.

[kevin]

Micheal thanks that's the point I'm trying to make .It subjective you could argue the legs with the grove in for the panel are wrong

The bottom line is I had no help in design from or there expert but its easy after the fact to criticize to try and a shave a few dollars off

I've enclosed a couple of pictures That was the last visit we cleaned and left the work area spotless

I'm to visit Wed with the husband the wife is to busy now to meet

The 4th picture is of an overlay when I first starting doing them 14 years ago this kitchen was done in Montreal

[kevin]

Also if you look at the white crown where mine meets .The superintendent wanted me to use a box I said it would look hideous with a 6 inch crown he said it did for all units ,Doing thing different doesn't mean its wrong
I think he was the option

[myxpykalix]

Kevin,
Everything i've seen you do is top notch. I'm sure they are paying a good price for quality work and most people would look at this and not have a problem, some people just want to nit-pick.

If they don't pay then threaten them with a mechanics lein. Take a bunch of pictures and do most of your communication in writing and establish a paper trail. Sometimes you just have to go thru the motions to get paid.
I think to an average judge he would look at that and say..."So what the problem? It looks good to me..."

I tell people..."You can have it done fast, or you can have it done right, but you can't have both."
I see no reason for you to even consider compromising on your price or your principles.:D

[gene]

so this is the opinion of the superintendent ? not the homeowners? I think that he is trying to see if he can shave this amount off by blowing smoke. I bet the homeowners will like things .Just let them know that this is how "you" build your cabinets.

[backyard_cnc]

you could just offer to come and totally remove the cabinets if they don"t want to pay the bill and let them try and get as nice a job for less money elsewhere. I hate being held hostage after the fact when I have upheld my end. This is a beautiful custom kitchen and they should be rushing to pay you in full just in case you didn't charge enough and wanted to correct the bill! Some people are just annoying and its doubtful they will sing your praises regardless of what you do. Likely they will just brag about how they got a $G note off the bill with BS complaint.

hope it worked out.

Gerald

[gene]

Has there been any resolution yet ?

[kevin]

Gerald thanks for the compliment they really have you if they want to drag out paying .All work leaving the shop will paid first .Its time consuming running after money

Gene I meet with home owners on Sat before Christmas I ask who there expert was they would not tell me .I showed l letter from Michea they said who the f--k is Micheal .So it was heated I was insulted and humiliated ,embarrassed to be working for people like this .

I agree to replace to small doors on top I did take a eight of an inch off I had to give them something .I;m bringing the door this Monday I ask if there was anything else they said no.
I think if I ever do something like this again put a lean on the condo only remove it when I'm paid

These are the kitchen that are in the condos






http://www.remax.ca/remaxphotos/NLAR/1934315.jpghttp://www.homefinder.ca/system/listing_images/57480000/small/57480875_Listing_image_1562685__cnw_listing_0f86_9 7d8_25f8_3195aa2985d9a29646a5_w475h356.jpg?1387691 040

[myxpykalix]

Kevin,
I don't know what your personality is like, but these people seem to want to take advantage of some (like you) who do a good job and they want to nit pick to try to screw you.

I would go in and simply say, if you are not satisfied and don't want to pay me in full i'll go ahead and remove the cabinets and you can get someone else to make you new ones.

In other words...call their bluff. I guarantee they do not want you to remove the cabinets. If you don't get it all, i'd take what i could get, cash the check then go down and file a lein and a small claims court suit.

Sometimes you simply have to stand up to a bully and fight. It might mean a bloody nose (figuratively) but the bullying will stop.:eek:

[gene]

If the condo sale has not closed go in the unit and remove all the doors and drawers . When you get payment in full reinstall them :eek:

[myxpykalix]

or better yet, depending on how much they short you take that many doors or drawers that equal that. That would be even better. More devious:mad::eek::D:rolleyes: