VCarved buttons

[scottp55]

Mom, Knitted scarves for 3 grand daughters for Christmas but couldn't find any buttons she liked sooo.

[sailfl]

What a great gift. Sweaters for the grand daughters and they are made by grandparents.

Happy Holidays

[Brady Watson]

Great stuff Scott! I like seeing new ideas. While wood buttons are nothing new, I haven't seen anyone cutting them on a CNC.

-B

[myxpykalix]

I couldn't tell based on the photos what size were the buttons? And did you measure the buttonhole first:confused::D

good job...:)

[scottp55]

Thanks all, It was nice to do something for My mother. She's more impressed with the Desktop now. In the beginning she said "Is that all it can DO-Carve?", two days ago it was "Wow, it can make BUTTONS! Isn't it smart to know how to do that!(Cringe)". Jack, 1.5" OD , holes .02" diameter profiled ONLINE so she could use yarn. The extras were for my 5 aunts that knit bulky sweaters to pass around to their friends(Their sweaters go for $100+). I was told "Owls are IN". Birds eye maple .2" left over from barrister bookcase panels. Happy Holidays all.:)

[phil_o]

I like the buttons. Great idea. :)

Phil

[Brady Watson]

...The extras were for my 5 aunts that knit bulky sweaters to pass around to their friends...

Uh-oh...Once they start telling their friends, you'll never stop making buttons! Ha! :D

-B

[Brian Harnett]

Nice, I have been thinking about jewelry but buttons have a function.

[scottp55]

How thick IS an onionskin on hard maple, board was .2" birdseye, so it took the pointed roundover to .19" and without going into the embarrassing details(next time belt sander as my coarsest 5" was 100G and the holes didn't match),I spent 1.5 hours releasing the little bandits. NOOO I don't have a thickness sander and have never done an onionskin before(Yes Brady I should have researched- AND yes I should have done a trial cut on the edge of the board- and yes I should have surfaced BOTH sides of the .2" panel). Live and ...........I forget the last part.:)

[Brady Watson]

I saw this neat little contraption @ the Ottawa camp years ago: http://stockroomsupply.ca/shop/drum-sanders.html It is a DIY drum sander kit that works really well. Nice affordable option for smaller stuff where you onion skin the parts with the intent of releasing them on the sander. Yeah I know...I linked to the same place AGAIN...but I had the site up & happened to remember.

-B

[chiloquinruss]

Brady and the group I have their 30 inch drum sander and I just love it! It works terrific. Got the notor from HF and fired it up. I cut the box on the bot and just used their basic kit (comes with the box drawings). Best part is very little dust in the air while sanding, almost entirely goes in the box with or without the DC running. Russ

[scottp55]

Thanks Brady and Russ, Ran across that seems forever ago(5 months?:)). Glad to know it works. WAS .01" too thick for an onion skin on hard maple? Do NOT want to do that again without using my 4" belt sander:)

[pappybaynes]

Scott - the buttons are awesome...not going to show my wife! Merry Christmas! Dick

[Brady Watson]

I don't think .01 is too thick - but I think that you could have left a .01 tab at the start point to keep them held in. You could also avoid the tabs with carpet tape, with a little post cut cleanup with a damp alky rag.

One trick that I use with small parts is to use the smallest diameter bit I can while cutting out the parts. This has made a huge difference for me because it exerts less force on the part than a larger tool would. This combined with very light chipload (crank that RPM up on those small tools to get the surface feet per minute up [SFM]) and most things need just one or even no tabs. Tooling geometry can be exploited too...park the upcut spiral and go with a straight flute tool that has poor chip extraction - Keep those chips in the kerf to help hold the part in place.

-B

[scottp55]

Using a .32" pointed roundover to "cut out with skin layer" I agree Brady wasn't the swiftest move I've ever made. After finishing them I think I should have added a cut-out line at the centerpoint of the PRO's cut and cut that out on the line(with 2 tabs-chicken) with my 1/8 straight like Brady said. Would have left me a .02" thick thick edge that would have beefed it up and made it a ton easier to sand/oil. Dick, smart move not showing the wife(2 guys with desktops already have-and I think it will interrupt production schedules :)). Brady, Thanks for the tips, made me rethink a lot of thin stuff in the pipeline. Oh, well. My Mom loved them-so it was worth it. She did make one comment as she left"Scott, Your brother has a ton of money(family car is Yukon(winter),blue Lotus sedan(summer)), but where could he buy buttons like these, and how much would they cost?". Merry Xmas all.

[Brady Watson]

... but where could he buy buttons like these, and how much would they cost?

"Not available in any store. Call now to order. Operators are standing by." :D

-B

[scottp55]

Brady, You forgot my other 2 products. Custom poker chips with value determined by wood species and my wooden Maine nickels:)

[chiloquinruss]

Another trick is one I learned from the scrollers, I use put down masking tape on my spoil board, then two sided tape and then put another piece of masking tape on the underside of the piece I'm cutting. I then stick the piece to the two sided tape already on the spoilboard. VERY easy cleanup afterwards. In a lot of cases, no tabs, and no onion skin, just sticky tape. Russ

[scottp55]

Thanks Russ, good to know for future. This piece though was a test cut(band saw had died in middle of resawing 30 pieces for bookcases) on the unisaw and besides it being cupped the saw kerf was off by .02". Started being .27" thick and used screws in the middle of the cup to pull it down, after one side flat,only had .2" thickness left so I went for it. Need vac hold down to go into production and make my third million after Brady puts me on the home shopping network:)

[Brady Watson]

Russ & Scott,
The 'marriage' of the 2 tape technique & vacuum is what I called 'The Vacuum Film Technique'. You can hold down just about anything with that method.

-B

[pappybaynes]

I don't care what they say - you CAN teach an OLD dog new tricks!

[Burkhardt]

Buttons look great! I still have some 1/10" plywood left over that I laminated from different color veneer for another project. I may give that a try for buttons.

I have not had much success for holding down small pieces (except for tabs). Thanks for all the tips here! I did try double sided high tack 3M foam tape one time and is was a big mess. The router bit ripped up the tape an slung adhesive boogers all over the shop.

[Brady Watson]

http://www.shopbotblog.com/index.php/2006/03/a-sticky-situation/

-B

[scottp55]

Brady, Thought you recommended Ace Hardware cloth reinforced carpet tape(that's what I bought and haven't used yet). Thanks for the help on this-

[Brady Watson]

I wrote that long ago...Yes - I've found Ace to be the best for our application. It must specifically say either "Fiberglass" or "Cloth" on the front of the box.

Can't find it on their site now...I hope that isn't a sign.

-B

[scottp55]

Bought 3 weeks ago,
Ace carpet tape
cloth
heavy duty
#54308
That the stuff?

[MogulTx]

"DUCK" brand works well. They have medium sized rolls at Wally-world. I buy it from a distributor in NJ in LARGE rolls and a couple cases at a time.

[Brady Watson]

Yes- that's the stuff. The the one that says 'Fiberglass' on front is even better than the one that says 'cloth'.

Monty - Yes the Duck stuff is good. I was using this until Depot stopped carrying it in my neck of the woods and replaced it with the mostly clear & 'snotty' stuff with like 3-5 tracer strings running through it. THAT stuff is NO good for CNC since you can't get the residue off the table! (Unless you scrape, douse with solvent, heat or machine it off)

-B

[MogulTx]

Brady: EXACTLY!! I hate their new stuff! I wish I could get them to carry the DUCK brand again! It's pretty good stuff! But a big kings x on the snotty stuff

[Brady Watson]

Who's your source in NJ for Duck?

-B

[Burkhardt]

I bought a few rolls of the outdoor fiberglass Duck tape (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BO4QZ0/) based on your recommendation from Amazon.

Pretty cheap at $5 for a 42 ft roll. I am curious how that works.

[Ken Sully]

Menards carries the fiberglass duck tape in Iowa.
Not sure if Menards is nation wide.

[Brady Watson]

Yep $5 is a decent price. I am sure if I sniffed around online I could get a better price by the case. Thanks for the link. Looks like it is a Prime add-on so no shipping charge for 2-day if you have Prime.

Kenny - Nope. No Menards round these parts. They seem to be concentrated in the Midwest region.

-B

[MogulTx]

When I get into my accounting program, I will get the contact info for where I order it on line and will send it to you Brady. I order a couple cases at a time because I use it for a project that is other than ShopBot related.

[MogulTx]

For those who might be interested... This is the best stuff I have found as far as a double sided tape for temporary holding. You CAN buy small rolls at WalMart ( 1.4" x 42 feet???) ... we buy the biggest, longest rolls available. These are 1.88" x 75 feet and run about $9+/roll in multi case quantity...

on the web:
http://www.findtape.com/product647/Duck-Brand-Indoor-Outdoor-Double-Sided-Carpet-Tape.aspx?idx=3&tid=7

physical:
FindTape.com LLC
1330 Rt. 206, #103-149
Skillman, NJ 08558
United States
questions@findtape.com
phone # 1-908-248-0427 or 1-800-806-7580 (800 # is U.S. only)*
fax # 1-866-698-9890

[Brady Watson]

Thanks for the link. I need to stock up soon...

-B

[scottp55]

Played with simple geometric fluting toolpathed buttons today. Finished sheet pics came out lousy. Wish I hadn't used Maple to proto (FUZZIES!!),surfaced .2" cherry ready to go first thing in morning (.25" stock was too thick for 3/8D-3/16R WHiteside Pointed Round Over bit to get into without leaving a "High Hat" ridge and touching design at buttonholes).
Do NOT put a 75W halogen 12" away from your right corner or the Ace Hardware carpet tape will start to lift a smidge when cutting out:eek:
How do you get rid of the tiny bit of adhesive residue fast and easily when you work in a warm shop?

[genek]

played with simple geometric fluting toolpathed buttons today. Finished sheet pics came out lousy. Wish i hadn't used maple to proto (fuzzies!!),surfaced .2" cherry ready to go first thing in morning (.25" stock was too thick for 3/8d-3/16r whiteside pointed round over bit to get into without leaving a "high hat" ridge and touching design at buttonholes).
Do not put a 75w halogen 12" away from your right corner or the ace hardware carpet tape will start to lift a smidge when cutting out:eek:
How do you get rid of the tiny bit of adhesive residue fast and easily when you work in a warm shop?

On the adhesive residue. Depends on the adhesive. Paint thinner or alcohol that is what I use.

What is the buttons for???

[scottp55]

Eugene, Ever since I made the first batch I keep getting asked when I'm making another. Hard to find graphics to buy that 2-4 buttonholes don't look bad,or carve horrible or too slow at 1-2" and the 2 I really like aren't for sale. So played with original/generic patterns for 1/8" BN and fluting gives me the recessed flat in center.
High end Knitters up here for expensive sweaters and such like the bigger ones, and need low price/high quality leaders for the booth table at Kirks Acadian Congress fair in 10 days(50,000 door per day) so thought I'd pump a dozen sheets out to help.
I MAY regret it, but they're fairly fast and design is mine.
Whichever design/wood needs the LEAST amount of sanding will be my favorite :), but tops and bottoms already at 220G before carving.

[khaos]

... straight flute tool that has poor chip extraction - Keep those chips in the kerf to help hold the part in place. ...

I almost missed this nugget. http://www.chevyequinoxforum.com/images/smilies/banana-mario.gif

[scottp55]

I suppose I should have started a "fluted" button thread as these aren't VCarved. My starter set Onsrud 1/8" BallNose Is about 9 months old, Sooo why not use a brand new Chinese TiN? WRONG!! Didn't do a test cut as surfaced cherry was right there waiting for me--big mistake. I spent a bit of time rescuing this with the Onsrud afterwards. You DO get what you pay for Usually.
Shrunk yesterdays patterns down to 1.25" which when profiled outside the line with the 3/8"Whiteside PRO gives a good size, but 2 of them got too busy and should have gone with 1/16" TaperedBN maybe. If I go smaller my use tapered 1/16"BN for all toolpaths(just a thought).
Button holes need to be spaced further apart, and I need to orient them so grain is continuous between and I must have had the "rotate parts for best fit" box checked when I nested them(but why it would rotate a round part to fit I can't figure out).
The light is funky in the afternoon and most of my pics look more like sugar cookies than buttons:) To bad they are only single lines(be a great cookie mold), maybe bitmap trace a preview in high contrast colors?
Black Walnut, maybe Padauk or Lacewood tomorrow. Buying 4X24" presanded scrollsaw ready 1/4" saves a lot of work(should have gone 5 or 6" width for this stuff though).

[scottp55]

Walnut today,And changed over to a .125 60VBit on someones advice on the Vectric Forum. Almost identical fluting toolpath. :)
Made 2 other identical blanks so I could swap out blanks instead of a tool change X3 , but don't want to dare as they are only 1.1" and the buttonholes and cutout are REALLY tight and humidity and temp change every thunderstorm(shut down 3 times). Maybe later with the bigger ones.

[scottp55]

Today. Sanded during training today :( I think this will be the "minimal sanding required model" :)
Somebody on here has "where even the scraps are interesting", Think I'll change it to "where even some of the scraps are buttons"

[genek]

Today. Sanded during training today :( I think this will be the "minimal sanding required model" :)
Somebody on here has "where even the scraps are interesting", Think I'll change it to "where even some of the scraps are buttons"
Scott have you ever used a flutter wheel for sanding. I have a flutter wheel sanding set up that I use on lots of products.

[scottp55]

Thanks Eugene, had an old one I'd never used, but only goes up to 120G. Just ordered a 150 and 220G. I used to have an inflatable drum sanding attachment I think would help a lot, but of course it's gone missing:(
My cat is obviously becoming a Kleptomaniac as I get older:)
Thanks again.

[pappybaynes]

Today. Sanded during training today :( I think this will be the "minimal sanding required model" :)
Somebody on here has "where even the scraps are interesting", Think I'll change it to "where even some of the scraps are buttons"
Scott,a few years back I cut about 25K 4" coasters our of sheets of ...I have thousands of those "diamond" shaped pieces that would make great Christmas tree ornaments...you out to look at the sanding mops from Klingspor...I find them a lot better than a flap sander for fine detail...I use the 6" ones in my drill press and 3/4" & 1" in my Dremel...
Dick

[scottp55]

Thanks Dick, I like specifics from people who use stuff. Mine looks like that, may ruin a scroll saw blade cutting up some 220G today or some fine Emory cloth?
Kinda partial to the 3MBristleDiscs now that I'm used to them. I hope I NEVER get into production work, but at least we'll know what to buy for Kirks setup.

[scottp55]

These should make pretty ones:)
You gotta love wood on a nice day with the tunes cranked!
Hopefully lacquer will help adhesive from carpet tape come off cleaner, not going oil on these as not enough time to cure, thinking Eugen's dipping lacquer and maybe UV wax for Padauk.

[Bob Eustace]

Scott it took me two years to wake up that Onsrud are simply the best cutters money can buy and was just fooling myself on using the cheaper brands. I have a board on the wall of the fuzzyess cutting you have ever seen to remind me never to stray. On getting a quick finish on your beaut buttons, have you messed with a terrific natural oil with a difference made in Germany called Livos Kunos natural Oil? We were huge fans of Organoil for years but since discovering this wonderful stuff have dropped it even though the new stuff is dear. Its dry in under two hours and only needs one coat. If you want more gloss you just apply more coats. It would look fantastic on Steves secret draw box project!

[Burkhardt]

Here is a material idea if you want to make small but sturdy buttons....

A while ago I laminated 7 layers of different color veneer (plain w/o adhesive) cross-wise with epoxy resin to a custom plywood for a wood jewelry project. The resulting sheet was only about 1/8" thick but very strong and machined nicely because it was completely saturated with the resin and easy to polish. Obviously way to expensive for large parts but it would make beautiful buttons. Depending on how deep you cut you expose the various colors.

[scottp55]

Thanks Bob, Bookmarked, will try.
G.!, You trying to make MORE work for me?:)
Last time in Rockler showed Dad the premade blanks out of similar stuff, Very wild colors but very pricey. NOT trying to be a button Mogul, just the fluting toolpath made the array functions made it easy to create pleasing patterns that were fast and easy to make original designs and I thought people might be interested. Could be good for Northern machine and Kirk and a part time finisher we may pick up.
Me I'd just be happy making special ones for Aunt's once in a while:)

[scottp55]

Long day, but only had to change bits 3 times and Z 3 times (and RR a lot):)
LOVE Padauk ( I thought cherry carved nice).

[scottp55]

OH NO!! Here he goes again! :)
Don't!! Decide to make buttons out waste rips of roughsawn Quilted OR use 8/4 rips for 1.25" buttons(Claro was OK but saw marks didn't give good adhesion on carpet tape--They were flying like popcorn, and all I had was my trusty air nozzle and a small shield :) ).
4 new patterns using fluting(linear and smooth), and 3 brand new bits that needed dialing in. 2 60's and a 45 degree.
Designed at 4AM and cutting late(and changing my mind) caused most of my problems:)
Quilted is picky as heck and you can barely tell it's quilted:(

[genek]

OH NO!! Here he goes again! :)
Don't!! Decide to make buttons out waste rips of roughsawn Quilted OR use 8/4 rips for 1.25" buttons(Claro was OK but saw marks didn't give good adhesion on carpet tape--They were flying like popcorn, and all I had was my trusty air nozzle and a small shield :) ).
4 new patterns using fluting(linear and smooth), and 3 brand new bits that needed dialing in. 2 60's and a 45 degree.
Designed at 4AM and cutting late(and changing my mind) caused most of my problems:)
Quilted is picky as heck and you can barely tell it's quilted:(
Scott Have you thought about onion skinning them. This way small parts stay in place till either planned or sanded. I do onion skin a lot on small parts.

[scottp55]

Morning Eugene, Yep, first 3 small batches were screwed and onion-skinned(more like potato-skinned), but took too long the way I did it. With scroll saw ready wood(sanded to thickness when I get it) and carpet tape actually got time machine time down to 1:30 each button.
This was a play day on my "official" day off:) Like I said I created most of my problems by going with the random thin rips. Was mainly trying out some "S" flourishes a guy on Vectric gave me and the new Kyocera 1/8" engraving bits (like them and only $4-6 each).
Like the Fluting/circular array toolpath for these as you can increase/decrease size of button and it doesn't really affect the times or the look as much as VCarving does(and no flat depth "look").
Needed some "Unique" buttons for a customer/friend up North.
Plan on trying onion-skin again as a Vacuum jig is next.
Thanks! Padauk today and the 22" inlay gets unclamped :) Be nice to work with 4X24" sheet stock instead of the rips.
scott

[scottp55]

Nice when things go smooth. Also nice that half of these were sold before they went on the Desktop and customer said all the designs were good, so "Just make me ones YOU like best." :)

[scottp55]

Purpleheart, same exact design. Yesterday.

[Cloudserver]

Look great as usual Scott. What do folks use the buttons for?

[scottp55]

Thanks Dick, We only started selling any about 6 weeks ago. Knitters and weavers liked the 2-3" proto's I did, but wanted more intricate designs, larger holes for their yarn and squares and ovals in something more exotic than the Maple/Walnuts one-of's we had.
These are a 1.25" pattern but the cut-out is a profile cut outside the line with a 60 VBit, so actual size before sanding is roughly 1.4".
A quilter near Houlton bought half the Padauks , and is giving 7 to her daughter in CO for Christsmas. Not sure exactly what for yet, but also sending her some other samples in different woods and designs to show her "sewing circle" friends as they are all professionals and can give me good feedback.
Have the 9 fluting toolpath ones pretty much dialed in, but was slightly amazed by the difference in using a smooth fluting toolpath vs a linear. And then further amazed by the Massive difference between using a 30,45,60,90 degree engraving bits on the same exact pattern! They almost look like totally different patterns, and that's just using the same .1" Maximum depth and 100% Flute length.
Mom used her first ones for knit scarves, but pretty much anything that should be hand washed.
Just tried dipping 4 of them in melted "Glass Fill" candlemakers wax last night, and all the excess came right off on a paper towel. Started at 15 seconds on on Maple, but after no ill effects actually went up in stages to 5 minutes and still flat with no excess in the little grooves or button holes at all.
Then tried Walnut/Padauk/Wenge (all I had fully sanded) and actually left the Walnut IN the wax overnight as it cooled and then reheated this morning:)
Not as much of an effect as I thought on bare wood though. Think I'll try a coat of 50/50 Tung/Citrus and another in Watco Danish and then the wax on the next ones.
Thanks G. and Andrew:)

[scottp55]

Bloodwood carved while Dick was here. Cut the bottom row with a 60 degree by accident(long day-should have been a 45) so wood was thinner than a 45 would have been and had tearout at the unsupported 12 and 6 o'clock grain. creative sanding or carving chisel work coming up:)

[Joseph clements]

Thanks Scott for the post. Going to try some this week. Thinking of putting them
In a tumbler with walnut shell, I use it to clean brass ammo for reloading,
Maybe it will sand them smooth

[scottp55]

Joseph, Pic doesn't really show it, but all that junk comes right off with your fingernail and the finish is almost burnished. Only thing left to do is soften the edges.
We've thought about a vibratory tumbler,but haven't tried yet.
I'd definitely try with just a few at first as the crispness is attractive in these, but could really help with maple and other woods with graphics and such.
Show pics, I'd be interested.:)

[Joseph clements]

How thick is the wood? I have some 1/4, looking to make some shape like texas

[scottp55]

Joseph, All start with 1/4" wood, but a little too thick most people think and good to have a perfect surface to start with anyway. Anywhere from .185- .21" feels good depending on Diameter.

[Joseph clements]

How do you clean the carpet tape off?

[scottp55]

:) !
One of MY first questions:)
Now that you've done it, denatured and a cloth(really stubborn use a 3m ultrafine pad).
I've found sanding to 220-320G before you stick it down not only is easier to sand than individual buttons, but doesn't give the tape all the wood fibers to muckle on to. For really open pore wood totally by accident(and to use it up) that a coat of 20-30% lacquer(SUPER thinned) dries in nothing flat and gives enough adhesion, but the tape comes off cleaner. My backer boards have like 3 coats of 10% thinned lacquer on them and they always come off clean even though they're sanded OSB.

Look Great!
Was playing with a Maine one last Friday,but haven't cut yet.
Don't you go putting us out of business before we get started Joseph! :)
Sanding and finishing Padauks when I saw this.
Nyalox 4" Blue(abrasive impregnated nylon bristle brushes) 240G work great for finishing as do the little 3m flap wheels(sandpaper/3mpad fine) if you break them WAY in.

[genek]

Joseph, Pic doesn't really show it, but all that junk comes right off with your fingernail and the finish is almost burnished. Only thing left to do is soften the edges.
We've thought about a vibratory tumbler,but haven't tried yet.
I'd definitely try with just a few at first as the crispness is attractive in these, but could really help with maple and other woods with graphics and such.
Show pics, I'd be interested.:)
On softening the edges a flutter sander works perfect. You just have to learn the touch of the product against the sand paper... I use the flutter sander all the time. I have two dedicated machines plus one that I mount to a drill for larger projects.
One is a Guenevere and the other one I made..

[Joseph clements]

Thanks for all the help Scott, my wife loves them. I have not thought about
Selling them, knitting is not big in HOT Texas . What does yours sell for?

[scottp55]

Glad she likes them, BUT NOW you're in trouble:)
These small(1.45") simple fluted ones $4 for cherry and walnut, $5 apiece for Padauk,Bloodwood,Purpleheart. And then up from there.
Buttons taking a bath:)
Funny, only Padauk floats.

[GeneMpls]

We have a sign shop and we use a lot of premask (think whitish
low tack masking tape) which works great- spread on the back
of the board and the spoil board and spray with contact adhesive-
let tack a couple minutes and stick down. The adhesive stays on the
tape and peels off the board easily. Learned this from Joe BTW

[scottp55]

Thanks Gene, but LAST timeI used spray adhesive I got some on the floor and my wheels and then proceeded to collect every bit of cat hair/shavings/you name it and I looked like I was pushing a cotton candy machine and not a wheelchair(I won't mention my hands). Think Vac Holddown next step.
Didn't come out half shabby:)

[genek]

Thanks Gene, but LAST timeI used spray adhesive I got some on the floor and my wheels and then proceeded to collect every bit of cat hair/shavings/you name it and I looked like I was pushing a cotton candy machine and not a wheelchair(I won't mention my hands). Think Vac Holddown next step.
Didn't come out half shabby:)
That is just too funny... I can just see that in my mind.. lol..

[Joseph clements]

Now that's a button

[Burkhardt]

Now that's a button

There is a tool for that!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/conniechiwa/DSC07751-1.jpg

[scottp55]

GUUUUUYS! Desktop here--NOT FRANKENBOT :)

[scottp55]

Burnt Buttons:)
Carved that "Tree of Life" and then found out there was a copyright issue so had Nancy pull pics, BUT Dad really likes it:( Tracked one that overlays it exactly on DeviantArt by a Canadian named Nat Franklin who says he designed it but that does NOT jive with "two guys in Britain" I was informed that own it. If anybody knows the original source Dad would like very much to license it if possible. Can anybody help?
Font height in "Looking for Owner" is .124" done with a $4 30 degree engraving.
Pretty much putzing with concept cuts here.
Hard Maple that I resawed on table saw and then hit with a large propane torch till barely black. Color does not rub off on finger even untouched.

[bleeth]

Here is a link to the copyright holder:

http://www.kelticdesigns.com/Pages/CelticTreeofLifebyJenDelyth.html

[scottp55]

THANKS a lot Dave!
Her design is only similar to the one I used claimed by Nat Franklin who claims it:), but everything from # of branches and roots, to the design of the Weave is different.
Now just to get permission from Nat after searching other claims.
MUCH more comfortable now!
Thanks again,
scott

[scottp55]

Geez!! It looked fine on a 20" monitor :)
"C" in Camp is .081" high. (Think I maybe pushing the font just a dight--May have to go all the way up to .12")
Amazed it did as good as it did-and looks really nice under the 3X visor:)

[scottp55]

Tried another one 20% bigger, but not much better. Then thought to squeegie a little CA on a small piece of the surface, but put too much on and it was enough to do the whole board VERY thin. BAD MISTAKE!! Bonded to the burnt so well that it was stronger than the Maple itself and was ripping the whole black layer off even running at 18K. Made a few more attempts and then decided to change everything and see what it WAS good for.
OH, after first attempt-I wiped ALL CA off with acetone, but the stuff that didn't wipe off went deeper and cut small font worse!
Lessons learned day:)
Staying with thinned lacquer(until the next time:)

[scottp55]

Oh, MECA is Maine College of the Arts, whose furniture design department is hosting the Shopbot Camp next Saturday-Shopbot is that company with the Blues.
Trying to figure out what to bring to "Show and Tell". Was wondering if I should only bring finished pieces that came out perfect--OR if people are interested in seeing things like this that show the process and the failures inherent in prototyping?
Any feedback welcome--my first Camp.

[pappybaynes]

Oh, MECA is Maine College of the Arts, whose furniture design department is hosting the Shopbot Camp next Saturday-Shopbot is that company with the Blues.
Trying to figure out what to bring to "Show and Tell". Was wondering if I should only bring finished pieces that came out perfect--OR if people are interested in seeing things like this that show the process and the failures inherent in prototyping?
Any feedback welcome--my first Camp.
Scott, bring your successes and you can mention what you learned (failures)
Dick

[chiloquinruss]

I have been to several camps and they are all very educational. I know a lot of you make up special jigs for doing all kinds of different projects, those are as interesting and educational as any 'finished' piece. I know I sure get a real kick out of figuring out how to hold something to make a new piece. Another good show and tell is something that you made out of 'shop scrap' that turned out really cool! Just some thoughts for your first camp. Russ

[scottp55]

That's Great Dick! I don't have to bring anything AND I can talk a lot! :)
Thanks Russ, Bringing my inlay test board as with the 16" crack it was pretty much relegated to be chopped into smaller pieces and all the inlay except tree was button scrap:)
Thanks,
scott

[scottp55]

I think Dad will be surprised in the morning- Hasn't even seen a preview as it wasn't even a proto file at Noon. Whew!:) 2 new bits dialed in with no scrap test:eek:

[pappybaynes]

Scott, those are outstanding!!! Got to get rid of the day job so I can spend more time on the bot!
Dick

[Steve Wonser]

Wow, I guess you got the bits dialed in. The finish is amazing! What bits and settings did you use?

[scottp55]

Thanks:)
Nice day yesterday Dick!
Steve, Those were Padauk and had to come out perfect the first time for "Show and Tell" yesterday so I was super cautious and thought I might smoke a bit, BUT they were barely warm.
Celtic was a Kyocera(Drillman 1 -EBay $4.50) .125"D 90degree engraving at .8, .4,16K .06" depth for first pass and then 2 speed passes at 1.6, 1, 17K.
Cutout/Radius was Whiteside #1572 point cutting roundover 1/4"R at .9, .3,15K at .06"pass depth with spiral ramp.(I was worried about about breaking the tip and carpet tape movement as it got close to the full 1/2" cutting)
NO sanding:)

[moell54]

Scott,
I noticed that you mentioned Whiteside bits. I have had very good service out of that brand in my other routers. I guess these could be used in spindle Shopbots too?

[scottp55]

Aubrey, Yeah, I usually TRY to stick with the high quality solid carbides the guys on forum recommend, But have several Whitesides I use regularly in the Desktop spindle. Cut quality of Whiteside solid carbide Downs is pretty good(but Centurion is a little better). Like their 1.25"Mortising bit for surfacing, but there was just a "surfacing" thread with a bunch of links and I'm going to try out some of those as well.
1 Caution with the Whiteside Point Cutting Roundover is it doesn't come to a True point like a Magnate, so you have to offset very slightly if profile cutting "On" the line, but I was very happy with the cut I got in Padauk with the 1/4"R and going to try the same settings with my 3/16"R next time, as I think I was running 1.2, .5,15K at .09" pass depth with a straight ramp and it wasn't as good a quality.
For carbide tipped Whiteside is very acceptable:)

[pappybaynes]

Scott, good to see you and meet your dad...good information at the camp...won't be long before you have your vacuum hold down up and running!!
Dick

[scottp55]

Same here Dick:) Got the Spalted back home safe and looks dry(Thank your better half for the great protective job!!) Tons of good info from AllStar !! Never even knew "Cover Gasket" existed and certainly didn't know it could work for tiny stuff like the buttons. Is cover Gasket the stuff you used on your 25,000 Coasters? Did you get through all those with the same Gasket Sheet? Too much info in one shot though--Trying to remember which gasket John said was still trying to be killed by one customer--and which material had to be Re-Z'd as the Z changed and it got more and more crushed.
Dad, Liked you a lot( though personally I can't think of a single redeeming feature between the Two of us! :) ).
Oh, Didn't shoot smoke alarm--DID have 1/2" Blue/White spark come from a furnace component when I threw main breaker back on :( Shut furnace down Totally. So no heat/domestic hot since Sat.---Don't DARE fire up the Desktop as this totally unsuperstitious person knows bad things come in 3's :)

[pappybaynes]

Glad you like the spalted...got to thinking about your smoke detectors...there is a good chance that they need to be vacuumed out...dust can set them off...as you know, I work in the fire protection industry and it is part of the annual ritual to clean them as well as "duct" detectors...hope you get warmed up in there soon.
Dick

[scottp55]

Who wouldn't like the Spalted Dick! :) Got to come up with something special for that to use it full length, maybe another Paperback bookshelf.
Thanks for smoke detector maintenance info, never done the vac thing. But will put the new ones in accessible high spots with velcro or snap-tabs instead of VHB so at least I can snag them off the ceiling from the wheelchair with a stick or something:)

[myxpykalix]

Who wouldn't like the Spalted Dick!

Scott, that sounds like something you'd have to go to the doctor to get cleared up! The spalting along with the finish/color looks beautiful,....Dick
(scott, punctuation is your friend!:D)

[pappybaynes]

Who wouldn't like the Spalted Dick!

Scott, that sounds like something you'd have to go to the doctor to get cleared up! The spalting along with the finish/color looks beautiful,....Dick
(scott, punctuation is your friend!:D)

I received an old Sugar Maple (about 30" diameter) in a grapple load of firewood back in the mid 80's...it had nearly a full twist in about 14'...we ran a chainsaw across it to reveal the spalting...pulled it aside and had a friend with a bandsaw mill slab it up for me along with some Cherry we had taken off our land. Unfortunately a lot of it has gotten punky, but we still have several nice pieces some with tap hole in them.
Dick

[scottp55]

My good Sir, Thank you for the back story of that wonderful specimen of Spalted Maple you so kindly graced me with, this Saturday past. I shall sincerely endeavor to use my poor Craft to do it Justice.

Yep, sounds better Jack :) :) (lucky if I can remember decimal points some days though!)

[pappybaynes]

I showed your inlays of the tree and zebra to my friend who is a master Luthier and his comment was simply, "that guy is good!"

[scottp55]

NOT me Richard, Like my Mom says "That Machine is SOO smart! How does it know how to do that?":)
Just watched TJ's "Font" vid and ready to try a conventional inlay for large fonts and see if I can give Jonas a less expensive option to offer his customers who don't care about about the sharp corners and Teeny flourishes that Paul and Damien's Vinlay give.

[scottp55]

Just had a professional photographer here at the house with Dad Monday, tossed some ideas around. Put 1 coat wood butter on some sanded ones for her to take and play with.
She's GOOD:)
Should have given her some 4 coats Watco/hot dipped beeswax/Carnauba ones too!!
She makes my stuff look good:)

[Steve Wonser]

They look good enough to eat! :)

[srwtlc]

I was just thinkin' the same thing. ;)

Nice stuff Scott!

[Tim Lucas]

Real nice! What flavor did you say

[David Iannone]

Those look really nice. The photographer was a great idea too.

Dave

[scottp55]

Thanks all:)
Photographer was Dad's idea, I thought I took decent pics, but I was taking them from a Maker's standpoint. SHE was taking them from a grandmother poking around the internet for something special viewpoint and what she would like to see:)
Her way is BETTER!!
She's kind of getting into it I think:)
Here was just a thought she had for a Facebook Page Banner. She thinks we should just get our name out there, and get a little backstory of Dad's idea of starting a few small independent companies in Maine and then cut them loose---Instead of Retiring retiring like most 85 year olds do:)
Going Hard Maple,Black Walnut,Padauk, and Bloodwood for starter production, then maybe Purpleheart,Yellowheart, and Flame Touched Maple in the 9 fluted designs.
scott

[scottp55]

I took a nap, and while I was sleeping the photographer (Kelly) made Kirk(Alosada) a Facebook Page:) I THINK she's getting into it:)
Only bad thing is, I shut down my account once I checked how much time I spent on it and now have to open another:(

OH, This will be totally Kirk's company and baby. So PLEASE don't use my Name or Kennebunkport in any Comments. I Just Proto stuff. When Kirk has been in the black for 6 months, Dad will cut him loose and he'll continue on while Dad and I make a new company. THANKS,Scott

https://www.facebook.com/AlosadaMaine/timeline?ref=page_internal

A BIG THANK YOU to George Bradley at AllStarAdhesive for taking time out of his day to take a button .DXF and change it into a proto Cover Gasket Vacuum Jig!!! Thanks George:)

[scottp55]

OH,
AllStar Adhesives cover sheet gasket page if anybody else is intrigued to hold SMALL stuff down.
http://allstaradhesives.com/cart/category/cover_sheets

[Kyle Stapleton]

Looks very nice.

[David Iannone]

Scott,
The vaccum jig looks interesting. Are you going to use vac hold down for the buttons going forward?

Dave

[scottp55]

Dave,
IF we can get it held down, then yes we'll probably make a job specific jig for each of the different diameter/shapes.
Right at the limit of what people are doing in wood John and George from AllStar said. The fact that the Buttonholes need a gasket for drilling all the way through decreases the surface area. Sure would be nice to get away from tape and to have totally finished product come off(except for finishing).
George just sent me a new .dxf and may start drawing tomorrow(6 more files still to convert to production).
If it works(have to order that bit and a piece of HDPE for proto), then I'll post results in a different thread for those Bored with Buttons:)
scott

[barrowj]

Scott, this may be a dumb idea or you have already thought about it. Why don't you do a circle for the vacuum leaving the area where you drill through solid, does that make sense?

Joe

[scottp55]

Not dumb at all Joe. But I'll barely be skimming the HDPE to make it perfectly flat, then cut the grid and then the Cover Sheet Gasket covers the top of the channel. So substrate has to be totally flush.
JUST started to wrap my brain around it yesterday when I saw Georges file. I'll probably "Get" it when I draw it out in VCP. "Number than a Hake" when it comes to this stuff so just following the instructions:)

[David Iannone]

When you get to that point of playing with the job specific jig, if its still hard to hold down the part with vacuum, try using transfer tape / masking tape on the back of each slab of wood, then turn on vacuum, and cut through. The tape should help the vacuum hold. That is if the tape will stick to the wood. Then the transfer tape will come right off after no problem.

I have never tried to hold something that small though.

Dave

[scottp55]

Thanks Dave,
Using fairly dense woods, and hoping by sanding to 320G plus a Very dilute lacquer(like I was using to prevent carpet tape residue sticking--worked great for a clean release if you went slow) will prevent too much permeability loss. I'd need a medium? tack 4" wide tape as a few of the boards(usually self resawn maple, walnut) have a slight cup I need to pull flat.
May have to play with cutout toolpaths a little, have it now so I'm leaving .01" onionskin, and then a second final pass .015" lower to cut out completely.

[scottp55]

Purpleheart Friday and the square Bloodwoods finished at 5:30 :)
Nice to cut again:)
Yep, Buttons again:)
scott

[scottp55]

First proto of this one.
Usually do individuals to test toolpath/cutter strategy, but 60 buttons on a 4X24" wanted slightly better estimate of cutting time so did 10 at a whack and chose Hard Maple as it's the worst case for Fuzzies.
Life interfered and it was on the machine off and on for 4 DAYS:(
Forgot to wipe Maple with denatured or tack rag prior to carpet tape(DID wipe Padauk and NOT lifting at all), so got some lifting and it affected my clean up pass 2 days later(tried speeds up to 3.5,2,17K to speed it up---Z speed was most effective as well as lowering safeZ to .15 and .015"Z2)
As usual I changed the thickness(.185") at the last minute AFTER nesting and as I was cutting out with a Profile/Outside line with a Pointed Round Over it mucked me up and had to add an offset for the cutout.
Need to go back to 1 button/resize boundary vector and renest/ and plug in best quality setting out of the six.
Kinda like the top one where I called out a Kyocera 30 degree engraving, BUT used the 60 degree to make the tiny interweave cut deeper without having to play with Z Nudging(it won't be cut by me and trying to keep it simple for Northern Desktop), and was trying to avoid changing the design as it cuts beautifully in any size above this, but was so shallow in spots that 320G would have erased a lot.
All Kyoceras from Drillman1 on Ebay(Oops top row on right was Onsrud .25"D 60 degree engraving)--first try with his 1/16"2Flute and I like it! Cutout was Whiteside .5"D .25"R Pointed RoundOver.
Rambling,
scott
OH! Please don't notice the Digger:) Original file was referenced to spoilboard so I could just swap out the backer boards and do 6 at a time before changing bits, BUT 3 coats of sanding sealer and 2 of brushing lacquer gave me .015" difference in thickness and I spaced a final dimensioning pass, so I swapped to referencing from the top of material and forgot to save ONE recalculated toolpath at the end of a 12 hour day on the fly!!:(
It didn't break the 1/8" 60, but for the life of me I don't know why:)

[scottp55]

5 days mucking around (on and off) in Maple:(
3 hours today in Padauk:)
Ship the file off and start another one:(
scott

[Bob Eustace]

Thanks Dave,
Using fairly dense woods, and hoping by sanding to 320G plus a Very dilute lacquer(like I was using to prevent carpet tape residue sticking--worked great for a clean release if you went slow) will prevent too much permeability loss. I'd need a medium? tack 4" wide tape as a few of the boards(usually self resawn maple, walnut) have a slight cup I need to pull flat.
May have to play with cutout toolpaths a little, have it now so I'm leaving .01" onionskin, and then a second final pass .015" lower to cut out completely.

Scott the double sided blue Duck brand tape 1 1/4" leaves zero residue. You get it from Amazon - $8.35. Your tea tree suggestion for ants worked a treat. The little blighters hate the stuff! Thanks!

[scottp55]

Glad upside down ants Hate it too Bob ! :)
Having Very good luck with Ace Hardware 2" Fiberglass reinforced Heavy Duty now, and just sanding backs of Padauk/Bloodwood/Purpleheart to 320G and giving a quick swipe with denatured. Held a piece of Padauk that had been surfaced to .185" for 5 days with no lifting before and during cut and good release after:) Maple,Walnut,Cherry still giving that super thin Lacquer wash to stop residue.
Funny(OR NOT!!), Nearest Ace Hardware to Kirk is 40 miles so I was looking for a tape he could Amazon to his doorstep and got a roll of THIS size Duck Brand.....HATE IT, after 20 minutes with decent fingernails I got this at both ends and finally ripped it off (Clean...No residue off lacquered backer) and Chucked it!!! Stuff seemed to like to stick to the paper as much or more than the Board!
Think I remember someone (Brady?), mentioning this but I spaced it when ordering:(
Maybe I got a bad roll, but will never buy 2.44" again!! Shop was 65F and roll had been in 70F house.
I liked the tack and the release on the board though. Just HATED the paper backing.
Wonder if it was just me? Or is there a trick to it I don't need for Ace brand?
Did I buy the wrong type?
Thanks,
scott

[scottp55]

Bloodwood Proto design cut Tuesday with Dad.
Need to re-orient Button 90 degrees so Points on Fleur run more with the grain to keep the "tips" supported.
Getting good pocket finish at 6% stepover with Kyocera .125" 45degree from Drillman1 in 1 slower Pass(.05"), than faster first pass and then a second speed pass(Probably wood movement and second pass was 2,1 so ANY cutting resulted in lower quality?).
Need to re-do Celtic files if it's the same case in Maple,B Walnut and get same quality.
Save a LOT of time, as does increased stepover---Going to see if I can get away with 7-8% stepover today.
Still Tweaking and may Finally dare changing VR's today thanks to Brady's article.
Oh, Finally getting production files referenced to BOTTOM of Backer Boards...Now IF I can only remember EVERY time to change the little red dot on material set-up to the BOTTOM of material:(
Drove TWO 1/8" bits into the backers in TWO days!!!
Yes Desktop can lose position!!
Second time I forgot to C3 as well as C2 and X,Y were about 1.5" off and I didn't catch it because it was a first run.
VERY interesting design in B Walnut....Good thing we needed samples for Dad to play with Vibratory Tumbler:)
scott
Also found out I can BOG OUT Desktop spindle! Normally cut Ocooch .25" stock to dimension (.2"), but ran the same file for some shop cut blanks that were 3/8" thick. So instead of cutting .03" at 2.4,.5,12K with a 1.25" Whiteside Mortising bit, First pass was .155" in Maple at same setting.....5" ramp and she TOTALLY stalled out about 12" into cut. Changed to 1.5,.5,13K file and no problems.
NOW a separate file for the table sawed resaw material.

[scottp55]

Wow,
What a difference between making a file for myself for a one of, and then making a file for a new employee up North Kirk hired with less than 2 weeks training!
Referencing from the same spot on spoilboard/naming files so they're obvious/combining toolpaths in the correct order/homing so no Keypading to change bits/ and tweaking so it will cut 3 species with the least amount of sanding....Oh Yeah, and trying to speed it up by 30 seconds here and a minute There---------OK all Vented:)
"How do I make mistakes today...Oh let me count the ways..."
I'm THIS Close:)
Time for breakfast!!

[scottp55]

Customer liked that last Stella design so much they opened an account, BUT wanted one that looked more like a Compass Rose.
Did one right off the bat based on the Stella design, BUT thought it was too similar and spent several days on/off getting "Fancy"and VCarving and bitmap tracing:(
In the end they liked the simplest/fastest cutting one the best:)
Easy to overthink things for me:)
Also a close up that looks like an optical delusion(or I'm tired)....And YES, The countersink for buttonholes should have been ON the line...I know,I know,.....:)

[pappybaynes]

Scott, those are awesome!!

[scottp55]

Thanks Dick!
Same little $4 Kyocera 60degree engraving as when you were here. Did try an Onsrud .25 engraving bit and My Vortex 2F 60degree again, trying to eliminate a bit change, but had tearout where Fluting toolpaths met. Seems a new sharp bit with low mileage and a second "speed pass" eliminated both tearout AND sanding..looks almost burnished in person. Edges on cutout are only thing that needs sanding to soften.
Getting boring though...inlays and Celtics and Tin now this design is done:)

[willmorgan]

Those look great! Nice job.

[pappybaynes]

What are your feeds and speeds Scott?
Dick

[scottp55]

Thanks Will.
Dick, .7,.4,17K for Drillman1's .125"60 for both woods. Had tearout at .8IPS on the Maple on 1 in 6 so didn't try faster on Bloodwood as customer is waiting.
Normally do 1/2D passes, BUT second pass always caused tearout as it reversed, so 1 pass full depth up to 80%D works with that bit in Bloodwood and Purpleheart without much deflection. Tearout always at 45degrees to woodgrain at acute angles...so avoid if possible.
If 1/2D passes then 1,.5,16K is usually good.
OH, cleanup pass at 1.5,1.5,17K full depth works wonders.

[scottp55]

Latest batch of new design.
SUPPOSED to look like a Compass Rose.
Turns out all the Bloodwoods are sold already and need to make another batch.

[bleeth]

Does bloodwood "bleed" when wet?
Actually a serious question-it's one exotic I have not used.

[scottp55]

Dave,
Honestly didn't know about unfinished Bloodwood/Satine.
Knew most solvents would leach out color, and know with 3 coats of oil the color won't transfer to light colored fabrics even after a 3 Woolite washes(UNLIKE Padauk which is only for dark fabrics unless 4 coats Watco).
Cold water on paper towel left the lightest of smudges and may just have been 400G dust. 10 minutes in cold water didn't change color of water, but boiling for 2 minutes in Nuke and then 5 minutes later is the color you see on the right in the Ball jar.
Linseed with no solvents on left was VERY slight.
Got a scrap in a watersoaked paper towel and going to leave overnight, if stained in AM I'll post pic.
Very dense(usually sinks in water or oil), carves beautifully, but can be splintery/brittle on cutout(like Lacewood, but not as bad) unless ALL the way through and be cautious cutting tabs off.
One of my favorites now.
Cutting speeds about 80% of Hard Maple seems to work well.

[bleeth]

Sounds like you have your material tests down well.
Thanks for the info.
Nice looking pieces as usual.

[scottp55]

Just an aside...Black tray wood is C-90 Torrefied Ash with 3 coats Linseed/Beeswax NOT stained and the color goes all the way through. Machines beautifully and dimensionally stable, BUT loses a lot of mechanical strength as that's the highest level of Torrefication.
Basically cooked in a vacuum...C-30 is only slightly darker than the natural wood color and C-50 almost a Walnut color. Apparently doesn't work well with very dense woods like Hard Maple, so only Ash/soft Maple/Tamarack and woods like that are used. NOT for everyone(and HATE the pores on Ash), but an interesting wood Dad bought 100's of BF of. VERY thirsty wood.

[scottp55]

Dave,
Bloodwood scraps in a Still soaking wet paper towel after 17hrs had zero color transfer to towel.
Grain raise was almost non-existent.
Forgot to mention one of my favorite features on Bloodwood is that it's usually chatoyant (cateye effect) when viewed 90 degrees to grain. Means you have that beautiful reddish color when viewed with grain, and then you rotate it and has almost a Quilted effect over the entire surface.
Think that's why women pick the Bloodwoods most often, as when they move or the angle of light changes...the button almost "Flashes" like Quilted/Curly, but the whole surface usually.
One lady was cherry-picking the buttons on appearance, and I told her to pick her 3 favorites....then I rotated the tray and she picked 3 different ones! She was hooked! :)

[khaos]

If it helps, I have done bloodwood inlays in bamboo (non caramelized) and used Behlen Laquer with zero bleeding.

[bob_s]

Scott
I also bought a batch of the heat treated wood, mine was poplar it looked great. It looked like really nice walnut but it didn't carve well. It seems that the heat treating process destroys the bonds between the wood fibers so small details split off too easily. not as much of a problem for engraving but anything sticking up cracked off too easily for me to use it. It is totally rot proof, I was told, made some raised beds, no rot after 2 Georgia summers and no pressure treated chemicals in the garden If they last 20 years I think I'll be even on the cost.

[scottp55]

Hey Bob,
Yep, the higher/darker Torrefied is too brittle for thin sections.
DOES engrave really clean because the fibers cut off so clean.
Think we lucked out on the cost...Dad went to the Kiln as it was only an hour away in Quebec Province. They only processed customers wood in full kiln loads, but they hooked him up with a nearby siding manufacturer. Turns out they use a LOT of it in Canada as exterior siding/trim.
You should be good for a while on yours, as this siding guy gets his kiln loads back, and THEN lets it sit out in the weather for an entire year exposed to elements before he even touches it! Even though they add steam to the chamber on the last phase to put moisture INTO the wood, he said it still took that amount of time to fully acclimate for siding. He gave Dad a pick-up truck load for I think it was $3.50 a BF for 4/4 (5-8"X8-10').
He gave Dad a few sample boards of different species/Torrefication levels. Think Poplar was one...going to have to dig them out of closet and look at them again.
NOT funny, but that Quebec plant burned to the ground when they lost Vac and oxygen got into the chamber...so what I've got is it!
Been trying to think of Bathroom/Outside items to make stuff out of it. People are loving the trays though and asking if we sell them...GOT to come up with something not so plain Vanilla though.

[scottp55]

Had to resurface and seal my torrefied button backer/spoilboards with General Finish "Woodturners Finish" (water based PU with 1 hour recoat for THICK layer),so during one of the waits I dug out my Torrefied samples from closet.
Just thought I'd post for anybody interested.
Now that I see them again, I remember that until you get to about C-80, it machines like regular wood for the most part, except it cuts clean and more like dust than chips above C-50(at least for surfacing).
Would have been more interested if Dad had got some Soft Maple(and I see some people are offering Cherry? :)
http://www.torrefactionplus.ca/torrefied-wood.php#qualite

Would be worried about screwing or bolting without careful testing. Did joint some pieces of C-90 Ash and glued with TB I, II,III, and Gorilla PU for a strength test as I had read gluing was horrendous, but Max G. got around to to gluing the exact wood Dad had given him with TBII and said it was a normal TB joint and wood failed before glue line so mine are still glued together after 18 months and still good after being knocked/dropped around the shop.
Put a straight edge on those surfaced sample boards that were surfaced 18 months ago, and even though they were just leaning against a closet wall, and humidity is 30% higher now..They're all still perfectly flat.
Last pic the color is lousy, but they are both C-90 Ash and the one on the left is my backer board with 4 coats of woodturners finish and right is just rough 4/4 that we have so much of.
Interesting stuff and think I might like the C-50 through C-70 in a closer grained wood than the Ash I have.
Interesting article about Martin Guitars
http://onemanz.com/guitar/articles-2/torrefication/
and was nice to finally see a pic of the vac chamber.
http://mectorrefaction.com/index.html

[scottp55]

This one looks interesting enough to get me into the shop:)
Bloodwood or Purpleheart....Decisions, decisions.
1/2" BN in the center is making me nervous.

[srwtlc]

Cool buttons Scott! You could do a double tap with a 0.5" core box bit instead of an upcut ballnose.

[scottp55]

Thanks Scott.
No .5"core box in shop, but doing a profile ramped cut at wimpy .01" passes (12:12 for 57 buttons see pic) and I may be OK.
Never even got to the BN cut as I was getting tearout and ran 5 tests in the Hard Maple kids blocks with both a 30 and a 45 degree.
Design is from a VInlay proto I have got around to yet that was 1.75". For this one I shrunk it down to .857" OD for the design and it's probably too busy. new 45 was better,30 may have been a little dull from Bloodwood(got 5 new bits coming tomorrow).
Going to try a 60 today but cut will only be .017" deep and worried about sanding design off.
Going to describe bits as an engraving bit(which it actually is) with the true .012" flat and maybe add a .04" flat depth today.
VERY glad I tried a block test first while I was sanding/coating Bloodwood and Purpleheart blanks.
Yesterday I skipped adding a coat of GF woodturners finish to the little blocks because I was rushing. Blanks normally get 1 coat at 220G and then 30 minutes later the 400&600G.
MAY try eliminating a vector and leave design proud, but cut times are already at 2 hours for the 57 buttons.
Started at normal Bloodwood settings of .8,.5,17K and went down to .5,.3,17K on third test and still got tearout, but it was better.
Gotta love proto'ing teeny stuff:)
Funny how preview never has tearout.
That center cut is only .51"OD. Does Infinity .5" bowl bit have plunge capacity? May be a perfect excuse to finally buy one.
I'll add close up pics of the reject test cuts later maybe.
scott

[Brady Watson]

Fresh sharp tools and high RPM are the ticket with the small bits. Since it is only a 300Hz spindle, you have to pull the MS down to compensate. 4-flute tools, although not as strong as 2-flute and not as much clearance for wood chips, will 'rub' the part 2X that of a 2-flute tool. It will effectively double your RPM...I reach for 2-flute for hogging out where I want that chip clearance, and 4-flute when I want a nice finish.

The only thing I wish the DT had was a higher RPM spindle for times like you describe. As a general rule, the softer the material, the higher the RPM you need in order to shear off cleanly. If the tool isn't sharp or RPM isn't high enough for the MS, then it just YANKS the material out. This is apparent on 3# insulation foam - pink stuff - where you can cut it at 8000 RPM, but the edge quality sucks. Pop a 4-flute tool in and run it at 18k and the edges are super crisp because it's taking lots of little bits instead of big ones.

I think you'll get better results with fresh tools...which should of course, be built into every job.

Thanks for posting...Buttons are looking good!

-B

[scottp55]

Thanks Brady,
I put a Sharpie mark on the depth ring for every hour of Bloodwood/Purpleheart cutting, and every 3 hours of Maple/Walnut trying to get an idea of tool life for ordering. Normal Fluting toolpath buttons seem better because I can do it in one pass now(Tried 2 shallower pass depths, but the second reversed direction pass caused most tearout I found on the acute angles).
The 30 had 3 Sharpie marks on it, but 45 was brandie new.
Going to try a fresh 60 today, and then play with flat depth when fresh 30's arrive.
Need to play with my pass depths for the VCarve as we don't have as much control in the toolpaths.
I try never to max out at 18K, and just adjust for 17K.
Am I being too cautious about never running long periods at 18K? (this would be 9 hour cutting days/5 days a week/with about 1/2 at 18K)
Look at "Lady in the Woods" dress in bottom left of pic where the 30 was just too close/deep together for the unsupported end grain to survive.
That was a brand new bit I know, and I should have used a 45 or 60 I think.
Think I may be running into the same problem with this little design?
Trying for a final diameter button of 1.1" using a WHiteside point cutting roundover (.5"D .25R) and maybe asking too much of the wood and have to increase Diameter for this design.
Denser wood may solve it all by itself, but Maple and Walnut are selling well. May only offer these Bloodwood,Purpleheart,Yellowheart(never cut my Yellow though).
Fun playing/learning! but frustrating at times:)
Know a lot of people have good luck with 3F, but we only use max of about .08" of the tip usually, so these little 2F 1/8's are pretty painless to swap out at $4 to make sure we stay fairly sharp.
Will look at 4F 1/8's.
Thanks again.
scott

[Brady Watson]

It's a tool...run it until it dies and buy another one. People made it. It's going to break sooner or later. In the end it's all the same whether you baby it or not. It is rated for 18k...I've run mine @ 18k for over 10hrs, and it's all good. (I've run my Colombo 5hp for 70hrs straight without stopping @ 20k)

Putting the screws to the spindle by not warming it up before all expands out to operating tolerance is what kills these things. It's exactly the same as starting your car in 15 deg weather and then mashing the pedal and doing a bonzai run. Betcha spin a bearing...When it's warmed up though...all the bearing surfaces are supported with oil/grease and there is no reason to be scared about running 18k.

Lady in the Woods looks good. It's the nature of the material that is causing you issues. If you are going to do intricate work like that, you want something really tight grained or homogenous like maple or synthetic material. Additionally, as you get down to very tiny moves at small scale, the difference in density between the xylem and phloem will cause some things to either lay over and get sucked into the bit or just snap off. When you get really detailed, under microscopic view, grain becomes akin to cables. Open grain woods really blow out when you try to hold detail because of the air/void/'interstacies' in the material. (should this be today's word?) ;)

At some point I will put a high RPM spindle on my DT for doing delicate things like this. Something in the 50-80k RPM range would suit my needs nicely. Just as a comparative yardstick per se, one of those TurboCarvers or dental drills spinning at like 350,000-400,000 can cut an egg shell, lightbulb or other delicate material with ease. You might be able to do some egg carving at 18k, but I would put money on it imploding sooner or later. The chipload is so light and 'non-grabby' with a high RPM 'spindle' that you can cut any lumber, regardless of grain or density, without tear out. The main problem with these high RPM deals is duty cycle and lack of torque...so it isn't a spindle replacement, but something to ponder in the realm of possibility as you think about improving your process in your mind's eye.

-B

[scottp55]

Thanks Brady....18K it is!(even if it is almost 2 months of SSDI)
Yep "Lady" is for the house, and a little work with my small 1/8" V palm gouge cleaned it right up.
Super Curly didn't help, and may just have hit the grain wrong.
STILL using standard Default VR settings and that's probably not helping...Rereading your VR article and may finally give myself a "Custom Small VCarve" setting.
Turns out today will be hand sanding/bristle disc'ing/recoating some B.Walnut buttons that came from up North and are unacceptable as is for our first commercial account customer:(
Just as well to wait for the new 30's.
Be interested in what you're looking for at in a high speed spindle when you get to it.
Too bad we aren't always so specialized, and need the low end torque for other stuff...Not sure it's worth the trade off for me, but good to know.
Got $30 bucks each for the little Loon 3D buttons(collector's mainly) at the national show, so may have found my personal niche for custom batch persnickety work once the production bread and butter Alosada stuff on the Northern Desktop is done:)
I appreciate all your help over the last 2 years!
scott

[Brady Watson]

Niche markets - that's where it's at. If you find a little corner of the world where you can be a big fish in a small pond for a while, you will do well. Always do your best and you will be peerless.

I am not going to assume to know your business, but my initial thoughts about new markets would be to consider widening your margins a bit by offering a different material. While wood buttons have a certain allure; and plastic usually doesn't; metal is something that may bring higher profits due to perceived value.

Of course, you can't cost effectively machine metal buttons...However, you can leverage what you do have to first machine a perfect master in some synthetic material. Then polish it up so it is perfect. Then make a silicone mold. Then do a cold cast brass, bronze or copper casting and buff the finished product with black wax. Material would be dirt cheap and you could cast and demold 30 in less time it takes you to machine only one...

Something to consider...Smooth-On (http://www.smooth-on.com/video_play.php?video_id=8BIxSp6QNvA)

-B

[scottp55]

Thanks Brady...Vid was interesting and hadn't seen that before and my fiberglass mold making experience could come in handy.
Reminds me of the buttons I bought at the April show specifically for you to scan, only to get home and flip them over and find copyright marks on them:( (what can I say....previous day was 16 hours making my very first 3D Loon button at .9" height...and woke up after 3 hours sleep to sand and oil them...totally spaced taking them off the display card and checking the backs before they were wrapped....cameo was $35 and the geometric was $20).
Cameo was made using a silicone mold it turns out...so definitely NOT an IBild scan candidate.
(Still glad I sent the Soapstone Inuit antique carving though...just wish I could get around to carving the Walrus face though)
Kind of a Purist though, and even have a hard time convincing myself to try the 99.9% Silver polymer clays to mount my Opal.
http://www.riogrande.com/Content/PMC-Q-A-You-Knead-PMC-And-Enamels-HT-psd?Pos=4
Still want to try cutting a cuttlefish mold(or ceramic using "lost wax") on the Desktop for Sterling though.
NOT in it for the money as the big 6 0 is 2 months away, and would only be doing it to supplement SSDI.
Button collectors are VERY interested in small limited edition button runs in rare/unique pattern exotic woods! signed/dated/numbered though.
Mary only brought 6 to the National Button Society National show(all I had finished with 4 coats) and she wound up buying 2 for herself.
Sounds about right for me at this stage. Of course when Dad does finally die, money won't be a concern(Hope he lives to 120!!!), but still only want to do work I love.
I CAN see using that process for some stuff though.
Bumming about Walnut buttons I was refinishing...Reminded me of your "Back to Basics" thread. One of his backer boards(spoilboard for buttons) must be .03" too high as the entire design/material thickness is too thin.
Bad enough the button is only .17" (too thin), but at the bottom of design the buttonholes are only .04" thick material and I just took some embroidery thread and managed to rip out the Walnut fairly easily....All 30 are JUNK:(
If your spoilboards aren't FLAT and accurate....you might as well not cut small stuff.
There! Vented.
scott

[Brady Watson]

Nature has some of the best copyright-free designs out there...and many of them are GOOD! :p I've scanned walnuts, acorns, shells, branches, flowers, fruit etc etc for customers. Scale isn't a factor because you can scale them down. Some have sent 'arrangements' of natural things to be scanned (even rocks in a specific pattern or to create a unique 3D textured background).

There is no such thing as making too much money....especially when you get paid to do what you love. I'd never feel guilty about that. If you do, you can donate.

Artists do limited 'prints' all the time. Same with coins. Your cast parts can be done the same way. Number and sign. Make them heavy enough (plaster filled) and few will know they are not metal. If you make up your own catalog, you can have limited 'sets' every year. Once they are gone, they're gone. Gold or silver leafing is another possibility...

Yes...flatness is king. You can cheat a bit by doing less per run across a smaller area. This will keep the Z more consistent.

-B

[scottp55]

Yep. Came really close to sending you some mineral specimens to scan, but the most interesting ones had undercuts or were so busy I really didn't think they would cut well. (Pyrite "sand dollars" for example)
Almost sent you a really nice very funky shaped burl as well(may in the future).
Gotta run and get my LaFuma lounge set up for the eclipse:)
Hope you have clear skies like me.
Life is tough:)
scott

[scottp55]

Our first commercial account just tossed our first four basic fluted designs in their Christmas catalog.
Been building inventory.,and forgot to take pics for 3 weeks.
Captured these before they went out the door yesterday.
All done by a retiree named Bonnie who had never touched wood before.
Teaching her how to cut so I can be downsized:)
scott

[scottp55]

Scott W.
Can Infinity bowl and tray bits plunge/spiral ramped in a .1" oversized hole?
Love to try one vs diamond grinding a SETools extra brazing off?
Thanks
scott

[bleeth]

Scott:

Those look good enough to eat.
Trouble is I can't make up my mind between the dark chocolate, milk chocolate, or butter cream!

[scottp55]

from our photographer/salesperson
"they look like yummy cookies!! LOL"
Rethinking to calling them "Beaver treats" or "Ultimate fibre treats" :)
"Wookies" might be great for Vegans.
Means a lot from you Dave!
scott

[srwtlc]

Hey Scott,

I know that the 1.25" one won't, but not sure about a smaller diameter one. I have a 0.75" one, but don't use it much and can't remember how much it doesn't cut in the center. Not near the shop to look at it at the moment. They do leave a good size nib uncut in the center and can't be plunged much more than 0.1".

[scottp55]

Thanks Scott.
Guess I'll finally buy some and find out:)
Both the 3/4 and a larger shank and diameter for display trays.
Thanks
scott

[scottp55]

Not much difference between Keyfobs and Buttons:)
First order that was made sight unseen by buyer who had only seen Button quality is going out today to Camden,Maine :)
Once a Tree
http://www.onceatree.net/products/
Thanks Bleeth for American made hardware recommendation of BallChain...we used their SS heavier duty 4"!
Oh, Stand was made by Ron the new second Desktop operator...without a Desktop and conventional tools in 12 hours after seeing the finished fobs.
GOOD initiative on his part!!

[genek]

Quite nice Scott.. if you want to bump the class up a little on the chain set up for less money let me know. I use a brass v clip and a brass key ring. total cost on my set up about 30 cents. Will set you up with the company I buy wholesale from.

[scottp55]

Thanks Eugene,
Can you e-mail me the info if it's American made?
Went stainless as it's a Yachting town, and Carabiner as my Mom at 84 has problems adding a key to split ring style(Dad is worse at 87) and I was rock climber so love 'biners.
Brass would work well if I could see it and it wasn't plated.
Say hi to Tina, and sorry about your Uncle:(
Take care,
scott

[scottp55]

First totally custom order out the door today.... 18 days before deadline. :)
4 coats of Linseed/Beeswax and sanded to 600G prior.
Onsrud 30engraving with .005" flat for fonts.

[scottp55]

Oh, .5"BN for scalloped edge and countersunk button holes.
Slowest part was the reduced Plunge speed on the font to prevent tearout in Cherry.
NOT my first choice wood choice for tiny font, or an oil finish because of bleeding in the beginning of summer temps.
Color is still coming into wood, and reverse side is 2-3 shades lighter.
The lighter buttons just need a little more sun, but will never be as dark as the full heartwood blank I used for 18 of them.

[dmidkiff]

Nice looking buttons. good job on the custom order.