Quick machine estimating time query

[johnm]

Folks -

Okay, how do you estimate machine time for a job, without going through "vector bustin'" the entire project to get an accurate run time.

We've had several potential jobs - projects with a number of small parts, dadoes, etc. We do charge for vectoring and machine set up, but not for estimates... How do we figure out how long it's going to take without doing all of the vector setups to start with. The way the process is now, we end up doing vectors for every possible job - a real time eater. Now, if we get the work, great, but...

I've tried figuring the total cut perimeters, times the number of passes divided by the feed speed, but....

If I have a 4x8 panel with 70 parts on it you can see how it would chew up some time...

In the case of multiple sets of parts on a panel, we have done layout for 1 set, or a 1/4 sheet or the like, and then extrapolated for a whole sheet, and that's a start, but still...

I'd appreciate any input...

John

[jhicks]

John, I'm afraid I can't give you an easier answer but heres something to think about.
IS the value really machine time anyway? Perhaps not. DEFINATELY not!
For example what is the time to pick up material, load the machine with material and cut file? Design time, etc, etc, scrap, clean restart bits etc.
So I like to think of the alternative 1st.
How much time would it take to use more conventional methods.IE: table saw, router table, sander,drill etc. Thats really most of the competition anyway.
So if its a 1 hr total job on conventional tools and your rate is $60.00/ hr, (hopefully higher)then its $60.00 assuming that includes EVERYTHING.
Now you know that your design time is worth something but maybe they can provide cad dwg files? Then you import and run on virtual file. if not its added time to cost for.
Now if the conventional methods have less desireable yield due to cut methods, or maybe finishing so be it.
Charge what you think material cost is X2 for handling and clean up, scrap, and mistakes.
Then add your hourly rate based on lets say 80% of what it would cost by conventional methods and you will be competitive.
So what if you make it in 1/2, or 1/3rd the time.
Thats the profit opportunity and cost for automation investment. No such thing as too much profit in my book.
Of course you could also ask if they have a budget since they bid the job and now want someone to make it but they know what they think they should pay or have paid in the past.
Start high and be ready to lose a few. Once they see your turnaround, consistency, and overall quality that too has value over hand rout and cut and they know it.
Good luck and forget machine time until its time to run parts that generate invoices.
The other advice I received from Joe Crumley made a lot of sense to me.
Would you like to run this type of part all day every day? If yes, could you survive at that price? If not, its not a healthy deal and will not support you long term.

Finally I use a simple quick calculation. $500.00 / day per person labor min billing in the shop plus 2x material minimum based on a 20% material cost average.
That equates to $65.00+/ hr in an 8 hour day. Sound high? Not really. In fact it may be low since not every hour is billable but do what you know gets you what you need to grow and continue to invest even if you're in your garage for now. Otherwise you'll never be able to move out of it.
If one can't average that, one won't be around long unless its a hobby.
Look for the "rich niches". If you take all low end jobs, you'll never have time to learn or do the high margin jobs.

[johnm]

Jerry -

Yes, I certainly understand about ancillary operations, but am more confident as to figuring how long it'll take me to do the hand or wood shop work. That, and I've known for a long time that hours vs. hours billed is a bit of a fairy tale.

Though, as you say, machine time MAY not matter in the big picture, for us, having SOME method of figuring how long it'll take to cut a panel full of parts - and how long it'll take to figure that part out... is a time eater.

As for getting CAD/DXF's that are ready to go, so far, it just hasn't happened - files that are supplied STILL need to be checked out, and there is usu some tweaking involved.

I guess part of the problem is that we are still new at the CNC work, and so every job is a NEW job - so there's a learning/tweaking curve every time. Repeat jobs are nice - and we are getting those, but....

John