Shopbot vs. Rockler Shark HD 2.0

[ClarkN]

Hello hobbyists!

I started off being interested in the Oliver Machinery Intellicarve 1013. Unfortunately, there are no Oliver distributors in Arizona and only lackluster support from the parent company when I inquired. The price was North of $2000. I even asked about Oliver and other CNC routers at the local woodworking stores. One salesman sniffed, "Oh, you mean a craftsmanship ender?" All I could see about Oliver Intellicarves was what was posted on Youtube.

I moved on to Rockler Shark Pro's. We DO have a Rockler store in Phoenix and their home office was very supportive. I will attend a 1 hour demo on the Pro at the Rockler store this Saturday. Price would be North of $5000 to get started with the Pro HD 2.0.

I attended Camp Shopbot at Tech Shop last month. It looks like they have a good local support network. A fellow participant even gave me his phone number if I have any more questions. Tech Shop even has additional courses available that I can take before trying my hand on their equipment.

I have a lot of questions about Shopbot Desktop. I won't deluge you with all of them in one post, so I'll start here.

Getting started with a Shopbot Desktop (with industrial spindle) would run me North of $7000. That's a far stretch from what I was starting out with for an Oliver! Why does a Shopbot Desktop cost so much more than a Rockler Shark Pro HD 2.0? They appear to have similar capabilities. The Rockler even has a larger work capacity. I notice the Rockler has a polymer gantry. Does that mean more lashback?

I'm not saying money is no object here. Price is a consideration, but it's not the ONLY consideration. I just want to know what value I'm getting for my money.

I'm interested in making signs and lithopanes. I'd like to go on to some 3D carving (chess pieces, nativity scene pieces, etc.) later on with the 3" indexing head. I see where they are even considering a LASER head. I could REALLY get into some mischief with that on my model railroad scratchbuilding projects!

Thanks for reading this far. I'm sorry if this has all been hashed over in previous posts. A Shopbot Desktop is within my realm if I have a good year. I have the rest of the year to do more research, check out some Youtube videos and visit Tech Shop before making such a commitment.

[gene]

If you are new to cnc the support means everything, The shopbot support from the team, as well as Scott, was the reason i purchased my shopbot

[gpinard]

Here is a post from just a few months ago. Good discussion about the different machines, Pluses and minuses

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19165&highlight=Rockler+shark

[bob_dodd]

Hello Clark Welcome to the forum

I have the new desktop that has been out feb. 2014 , The cut area is 24X , 18Y , 5.5Z It is a very sturdy machine with no flex in gantry , as far as I can tell , The desktop has worked flawlessly , I make aluminum spindle mounts with it for the desktop and Ebay spindles , if interested send a PM

[scottp55]

Clark, Welcome. We went through the same thing as you and there's a Rockler 25 miles away and after the demo I was ready to buy! VERY glad I didn't! I was looking at JUST the spec's(mainly Z and cutting area) and didn't know what to look for. The more I hung around this forum, the more I learned and knew I had to learn. I saw these people answering sometimes within minutes, other peoples problems, and as somebody brand new to this stuff I knew I was in the right place.
The Desktop has exceeded all our expectations, Now that it has increased Z and I know about "Tiling toolpaths" The work area isn't that important anymore and we haven't needed it yet.
The MAIN thing is the Desktop is a RUGGED one piece unit with exceptional accuracy and repeatability(VERY important) that is ready to use out of the box!
You can grab the gantry or the spindle and Oomph it, and you won't get flex or play. Very important when you have your feedrates up doing intricate Vcarving and machine starts doing the Watusi---BUT it's doing the Watusi as a UNIT and you can't tell by looking at your finished workpiece.:)
Went to Rockler for some stuff a while back and one of the salespeople was showing a salesperson from a different store how to use the Shark and I couldn't believe how slow they were cutting. When they left the machine I inspected their cuts and they were sloppy and on my machine I would say I was feeding too fast and getting bit deflection, but the bit was fully inserted and I saw them cutting with the 1/4" shank Vbit and I knew that wasn't it, so grabbed router and pushed and THE WHOLE THING FLEXED.
The Desktop with spindle is worth every penny and we have never had a moment's regret (We bought our second Desktop in January:)
The most important advice I got was "Buy your second machine First---It'll save you time, money, and aggravation".

[Ger21]

Shopbot is in a whole different league than a Shark.
I can't tell you how many Shark users I've seen actually build there own new machines because the Shark was just not very good. It's really just a very expensive, very light duty hobby machine.

[ClarkN]

Good information here! I looked at the link http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19165&highlight=Rockler+shark (Thanks, Gene Pinard!) and see a mixed review of the Shark control software. Other than that, it looks like Shopbot wins!

What is the advantage of the industrial spindle over the router option? $1595 vs. $358.95.

[Bob Eustace]

Clark, this video really sums it up beautifully.

http://youtu.be/tjtR95Abaqk

[scottp55]

Oh Boy, Clark. Can of worms! Many people do extraordinary fine detail work with the router, but we needed the finest detail we could get out of the box without having to upgrade later. More torque at lower RPM's, almost infinite/accurate speed control, less runout, no brushes, higher grade collets out of the gate, are all good reasons. But to be totally untechnical, the best reason to me is that 90% of the time I don't have to wear hearing protection and I can talk to people while it's cutting and listen to music and only have to turn it up 1 notch from when I'm not cutting unless Fein is on level 3 or up on it's power setting. Granted we do smaller stuff but only 2 bits require hearing protection. I always use hearing protection with even my PC laminate trimmer , and always with Delta dust collection, but with the Fein and Desktop going it's really not necessary except with those 2 bits. Quite often on smaller cuts(shallow intricate VCarving and small 3D) I don't even run the Fein. My random orbit is louder. I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions on this one.:) Oops see Bob beat me to it, Good one Bob.
Also another nice thing about Shopbot is we're all over the world so even if you're cutting at crazy hours, if you have a problem, somebody is usually up on the forum(although tech support is 24/7, forum usually tries to help and is faster). Like Bob at 8AM Monday morning just then.:)

[scottp55]

Oh, I think you'll find SB3 (control software) can do anything the shark's can do (not positive) except "virtual Z" whatever that is, but I trust Adrian's opinion that its not all that important. You can download SB3 here and try it out in preview mode, it's free. Also sounds like you'll be wanting Aspire for 3D, but to start out try downloading Vectrics free VCarvePro fully functional demo(You just can't export toolpaths). Both companies have superb tutorials and keep an eye out for TJ's online and basic training classes. They are free also and he's a good guy and teacher. Look under training classes and his taped ones are under support in this first link to SB3.

http://shopbottools.com/mSupport/controlsoftware.htm

http://www.vectric.com/downloads/trial-software.html

[myxpykalix]

One of your questions....spindle vs router...my take...Unless you are a bit "Anal retentive", that is to say, going to be willing to do a lot of extra effort to keep your spindle working in good order then i'd go with a router.

I don't want to sit there for 10 minutes warming up a spindle. I want to turn it on and go! That is why i use a router.
The repair costs, i think, are quite high. If you ruin a router just go buy a new one. You can afford 5-10 for the cost of a spindle. I've had my Shopbot 8 years and am only on my second router.

Those who own a spindle can tell you the advantages, i've never owned one. I don't want one.

Re; Shopbot vs Shark, just compare their forum vs shopbot, call up shopbot support. Many use this forum as their after hours support desk. I just wish i had a nickel for every question i answered!:D

[adrianm]

Warmup is no big deal. Just make sure it's the first thing that is done after turning the machine on and once you've finished all the other checks that should be done every day and loaded material etc it's probably finished ages ago.

[scottp55]

Old but good thread.A lot about the bigger spindles than our 110V but still pertinent. Agree with Adrian about 9 minutes as otherwise my shop would be more of a mess than it is, but then I usually let my car or bike warm up before pushing it too. Not "anal" but try to buy good tools and then try to take good care of them, after spending much money and time doing it the other way round.:) Has anybody EVER upgraded to a spindle and then gone back to router? Curious.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5379

[Simops]

I do a 3 minute warm up routine...takes no time out of the day...been doing this for past 3 years without issue.....touch wood because I love my spindle.....quiet and very manageable.

Cheers

[JimmyD]

I purchased a Shark Pro about a year ago. It is made of plastic (polymer). When it arrived and I took it out of the poorly packaged boxing, it was obvious that it was damaged. They have a single ACME screw under the main table. This screw is supported by a bearing in the end piece of plastic. The plastic was broken because of the weight of the table being entirely supported by the ACME screw and then the bearing in the plastic. During shipping it had broken the plastic. I reported it as damaged. It took almost two weeks for them to finally agree to send another, but not before I shipped the first one back.

When the replacement unit (the second one) arrived the packaging looked just as beat up and when I opened it, the exact same issue existed. It took another week for them to respond again concerning this one. I eventually returned it, eventually (3 months later) got my money back. I am so, so, so happy that I didn't end up with a Shark.

I am about to purchase a PRSalpha and believe that you get what you pay for. My recommendation is DO NOT BUY a SHARK.

[ClarkN]

Back from the Rockler Shark HD 2.0 demo. I'm still in the Shopbot camp! He also recommended downloading the V Carve software and going through the tutorial to get a feel for the software. That would be a worthwhile endeavor to pursue this summer.

Still no update from Rockler about having a rotary attachment for their Sharks.

Speaking of rotary attachments, does anyone here have experience with the 3" Gecko G250X indexing head? When they say 3", is that the maximum diameter of workpiece it can turn, or is that 3" depth of cut (thus allowing a 6" workpiece?) Has anyone carved chess pieces or nativity scene pieces with it? Does the 3D software include a library of projects (like chess pieces) one can work from?

[Burkhardt]

I used to have the old Shark pro plus about 3 years ago and back then they were already talking about an indexing option. Apparently nothing happened.

I used that machine for about 6 months. It was kind of O.K. and I did a few projects with it. But with the plastic frame and the central lead screw it flexed a lot under load. I got dissatisfied with the performance and sold it. Given that I kept the Vectric 3d and Vcarve licenses I did not lose much money on it and learned a lot (including what to avoid).

I might have bought a Shopbot if I was a professional woodworker. I am impressed with the design and user reputation but I am rather the tinkerer type and built my own machine exactly as I liked it from scratch (have been working in electrical and mechanical engineering for the last 30 years). Given the time investment and the materials it was probably not cheaper than a Shopbot but a lot of fun.

Even when I still had the Shark I replaced the Bosch router with a rather inexpensive 1.5kW Chinese spindle and Hitachi VFD. I would never go back to a router. Noise, runout, service life and speed variability do just not match up. You can make a router run a bit slower with a Super PID but why if a spindle makes it easier. My spindle (have 2.2kW now) is technically liquid cooled but I installed it in the dust collector air stream which provides ample cooling. No problem for the last 2-3 years. I never warm it up, just turn it on but higher quality spindles supposedly need that.

I do have an indexer, which is a 50:1 Harmonic Drive knock-off with a small stepper and a 3 or 4" chuck (similar to this one) (http://www.ebay.com/itm/251289785620?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2F i.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D2512897 85620%26_rdc%3D1). Bought it on eBay for $400 and it works very well