Vo-tech Schools

[genek]

Normally I hire summer help from the local Vo-tech Schools. Normally I get the Students that need to work and need to get their on the job training section done. Depending on their level of skills I normally pay between $12.00 and
$14.00 Dollars a hour. This year they have a new instructor. (this is a college level vo-tech.. They have Graduated high school.) He has informed them that they are not to take a on the job training Job that pays less than $45.00 per hour or they will not get a passing grade.

Has anyone been experiencing this with hired help from vo-tech schools.
Is this going to be the norm for wood working.

The local Cabinet shops do not pay that for skilled workers in this area.

[MogulTx]

WOW! Good luck with that!

Talk about setting kids up for failure. What point is he trying to make? Have you spoken with him and gotten this from him? Sounds really suspect. REALLY suspect!

My instinct says you are not getting good solid information OR the instructor is not in touch with reality.

[kurt_rose]

WOW! $14 an hour sounds like income inequality to me! Must be one of those democratic teachers. :D All kidding aside that's the most ridicules thing I ever heard. Bet some of his students wont be able to afford the next tuition payment. I'd have to make a phone call on that one.

[genek]

I did talk to the school and the instructor. The instructor is from New York. Talked to some others they have the same experience from him.

[Regnar]

That is a 90,000 dollar annual income if full time. I say good luck for the students. If they do find jobs starting out with that salary what the hell do they need the school for. :rolleyes:

[genek]

I tried to explain that the economy in this area did not warrant that wage. His argument back at me was that the students will get a bachelor degree this fall. That all had Drafting skills and cnc skills and could go on and get a masters if they wanted to, that they could go work for a factory running a cnc machine and that coal miners were getting paid that much with no degree. He also commented that cnc operators were making 80.00 an hour...
I guess I will stick to the High School students, how many of the big guys on here are paying a cnc operator $80.00 an hour. I can not see that price. I am lucky if I get $60.00 a hour for the cnc with operator.

[bleeth]

Cabinetmakers in New York do not get that kind of money. He has his head where there is likely to be very little sunshine.

[carlcnc]

What a CROCK

first hints, he is an academic, from NY[sorry all you New Yorkers]
sounds like he is trying to justify his salary.no real world experience
like someone else said,"setting them up for failure"
I live near Boeing's Everett plant and 30 year machinists do lots of overtime to get to 90K a year

Carl

[MogulTx]

I have a brother who has been with Delta for near 30 years and gets less than that per hour as a HIGHLY SKILLED and HIGHLY TRAINED mechanic on their aircraft. He is responsible for human lives... and his position doesn't make that kind of money straight out of school! ( I think he must be by now.)

The instructor is grossly mistaken.

And yes: About a dollar a minute for man and machine is about what I am figuring. +/- depending ont he complexity of the job.

[zeykr]

What is the name of the school? I may want to register for classes if it means that kind of a boost in income!

[adrianm]

Sounds like he's read what people charge per hour for CNC machine time and thinks that what the operator gets paid.

A bit like those people who think that all car mechanics are rich because their main dealer charges £100 per hour labour.

[tri4sale]

Go over his head to the dean of the dept, let know you've worked with program for years, and that new instructor is unrealistic and going to setup students for disappointment when they think they can walk out he door with degree and make $90,000 a year. When they don't they will be quick to let friends, family and strangers know how the school lied to them.

Did a google search for median income in Pikevilly, KY and it came back at $26521 in 2009 (a bit dated by incomes not up much so its probably somewhat accurate.) State median income was $40,072 so does this guy really think that CNC operators there make 3x the median area income??

[MogulTx]

I actually think Daniel's suggestion might be rather healthy for the school and for the students. It probably would be a crushing defeat for the Prof., but he is not doing either the institution or the students any real favors.... torn, but think maybe that is a positive solution.

[ssflyer]

What a shame - wonder what the instructor makes? :eek: Why does he even imagine that, "on the job training" would pay that kind of wage?

I did a few searches for CNC operator salaries in KY - HERE (http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-CNC-Operator-l-Lexington,-KY.html) is a sample site. Average is $22,000

Monster.com has a job listing for a CNC Machine Operator in Louisville for $10/hr.

This is absolutely ludicrous - The only students making that kind of money are the ones starting their own internet business... :D

I loved hiring new BSEE grads for about $30K, so I could teach them how things work in the real world work environment. (And teach them the way I liked it done :rolleyes:)

[dlcw]

That is ridiculous. My shop rate, to cover my salary plus all overhead, is less then that at $60/hr.

That "professor" must be smoking something thinking that interns are going to get paid that kind of money. He is assuredly setting them up for a big disappointment when they graduate thinking they are going to make that kind of money when they graduate, even with a masters or doctorate. Ain't going to happen.

I agree, go above his head and find out what the college administration thinks of this statement by the "professor".

[Ger21]

That all had Drafting skills and cnc skills and could go on and get a masters if they wanted to, that they could go work for a factory running a cnc machine

I'll guarantee you that none of these kids have the knowledge coming out of school to be worth even $20/hour.

I've been programming and running industrial CNC routers for almost 20 years, in both union and non union high volume custom cabinet shops. You'd need to be really good, with many years of experience, to be worth $25/hour.
And I'd guess that are wages here are a bit higher than in your area?

Drafting skills are useless without extensive cabinet and woodworking experience. Real world experience, not school experience.

A kid out of school would need weeks of training to program and run our Morbidelli, and a year or more to get good enough to be worth $20/hour.

[jerry_stanek]

That is the college way of thinking they tell these students that with a college education you will get a $100,000.00 a year job when you graduate. They make it sound good so they can charge that much for courses.

[adrianm]

That is the college way of thinking they tell these students that with a college education you will get a $100,000.00 a year job when you graduate. They make it sound good so they can charge that much for courses.

That's a good point. It's something that is happening more and more over here in the UK. Attracting people who are willing to pay large amounts for training in the hopes of a better paid job or a well paid first job is becoming a big industry.

Universities are increasingly more concerned about creating courses that appeal to overseas students for the increased funding than they are about providing efficient, focused courses as well.

[kurt_rose]

Better yet, just email the dean the link to this thread. :cool:

[jerry_stanek]

Where I was working I ran a Biesse pod and rail CNC and another guy ran the Biesse flat table and neither of us ever got close to $45. an hour

[genek]

I took some advice and drove down to the school and talked to the Local President of the school. Turns out I was not the only one complaining about the wages the young men was wanting.. Turns out The new instructor had called a large union shop that only does Government work and the Secretary quoted him pay scales off of a spec sheet and had doubled the price thinking he was from another company trying to see how much they paid since his phone said caller ID blocked. Instead of him calling other shops he thought that was norm for this area. All of the students had came back in telling him that they were not even getting offered anything close to the price he said the should get. I took the new instructor around to some other shops and let him talk to the owners and men. Turns out he is a nice Person Just green behind the ears and has actually never worked in the field. He Graduated not long ago from the university of Ky and did his student teaching under the old instructor who helped him get this job.
They will send the Young men back out to be interviewed for the co-op work study program.

thanks for the advice.. it paid off.

[scottp55]

Good Going Eugene! Helped everybody out:)

[pkirby]

Turns out he is a nice Person Just green behind the ears and has actually never worked in the field.


I'm 28 years old and this is EXACTLY why I dropped out of college 6 years ago to start my own business. I had a 4.0 GPA and only 11 credit hours remaining to finish my degree. I had a couple professors that were old and retired and did it as a favor to society, and I very much enjoyed learning from them and their experience. But the majority of my professors came stratight out of doctorate programs and had never worked in the field. I was majoring in Construction Management and it's my opinion that this is a subject in which field experience is critical. Don't get me wrong, college has it's place for doctor's, accountants, etc. (or if you only have a desire to work for someone else) But there are a lot of fields in which college is not all that important. I feel bad for all those kids that come out of college with nothing more than a $100k loan hanging around there neck. As a matter of fact, I hired a guy a couple weeks ago for $10/hr to do some demolition work and he had a Masters Degree. Some of my friends urge me to go back and finish, but I have no desire to waste my time at such a ridiculous institution. Simply put, my clients want to see my portfolio and they don't give a **** if I have a degree or not.

Okay, rant is over and I feel a lot better now:D

[Ajcoholic]

I'm 28 years old and this is EXACTLY why I dropped out of college 6 years ago to start my own business. I had a 4.0 GPA and only 11 credit hours remaining to finish my degree. I had a couple professors that were old and retired and did it as a favor to society, and I very much enjoyed learning from them and their experience. But the majority of my professors came stratight out of doctorate programs and had never worked in the field. I was majoring in Construction Management and it's my opinion that this is a subject in which field experience is critical. Don't get me wrong, college has it's place for doctor's, accountants, etc. (or if you only have a desire to work for someone else) But there are a lot of fields in which college is not all that important. I feel bad for all those kids that come out of college with nothing more than a $100k loan hanging around there neck. As a matter of fact, I hired a guy a couple weeks ago for $10/hr to do some demolition work and he had a Masters Degree. Some of my friends urge me to go back and finish, but I have no desire to waste my time at such a ridiculous institution. Simply put, my clients want to see my portfolio and they don't give a **** if I have a degree or not.

Okay, rant is over and I feel a lot better now:D

I agree with you Paul... I had 3 yrs of a 4 year university science degree finished when I decided to drop out and go to woodworking college (my father and I thought it would be a good idea to see what other skills could be learned rather than just working for him). Best decision I ever made. I did a three yr diploma course in industrial woodworking/woodworking manufacturing.

Anyhow, all of my instructors with the exception of two, were old time woodworkers who had worked their lives in the trade. I learned a LOT from those guys - especially the two German trained fellows who were a wealth of info for sure. And my finishing instructor - who worked a career in that trade before retiring and teaching at the college.

I start my helpers at our minimum wage here, $11. I pay my two part time guys $15/hr, and a full timer in my shop can earn what he's worth - up to a potential $30 but that would be someone who could produce as I do.

Starting at $12 to $14 is more than fair IMO...

[genek]

The way I do my helpers is their is a set wage. I have a set amount of work that they have to do, if they go over it they get a bonus per piece. The co-0p guys don't get the bonus till the end of their term. I normally send the bonus check to the school to give to them at awards day, along with a small plaque. I have only had one student that I had to let go. The others have worked out great. The high School ones are after school and and mostly for sanding. The high School get bonus also but it is added to their check each week. The High school ones start out at $8.50 per hour. above what the fast food chains pay. Most of the High school ones it takes a day or two for them to quit being aw struck. lol The High School ones I normally do not use in the summer.. they want to be doing other things, Some I have helped get good paying jobs as helpers with the company my father in-law is the construction foreman (that is the ones that really work good. They get to work in a high end cabinet shop.

[MogulTx]

Interesting to hear the "real story". It was obvious that this person did not have the real world experience to be able to understand that his beliefs were mistaken. It is good that you were able to speak with him and the school president and that they were willing to interact and to listen.

It is a shame that the machine shop they called led them astray- but it is not at all a surprise to me. After all, if they didn't know who they were giving out the information to, they probably felt like their business was being assailed. This young instructor failed to cross-check his information. He failed at a basic research requirement, which is to verify. You were kind to help him with his education.

Now: About that threat of a failing grade for anyone who accepted a position for less money.... Seems this young fella has a bit to learn. One size does NOT fit all. He needs to be more wise about his ultimatums... Some people may NEED to take the first job that presents itself today, so they can eat tomorrow!