Any word on a z-axis upgrade kit?

[wespor]

Could find any updates, figured I'd ask here but I started pestering Dianna. I need that extra height bad, been considering selling my Desktop, eating the loss and buying another.

[bob_dodd]

Weston

I use a round spindle on my Desktop , I'm able to slide the spindle up and down in mount as needed for clearance
I made my mount with my Desktop , you can put thicker material on bed and raise spindle up so your not topped out with Z

[scottp55]

Weston, Hold off for a little bit.
There's a 4'th option
Just talked to another Desktopper, who has a Z Modification being fed ex'd today to him by a machinist. I can't say anymore as he wants to use it for a while before he posts any info, and wants to get approval to give info out.
I have seen a clip and pics.
If it works out, he'll post:)
Might well be worth the wait!
How much Z?
How tall is your gantry?:)

[garyr6]

Intriguing, the plot thickens.......
I mean , who doesn't want more "z"
A desktop owner.

[scottp55]

Sorry to be so mysterious, but promised to keep it "sub rosa" until he had a chance to make sure accuracy doesn't suffer and installation is triple checked.
He said instal planned next week, and MOP blanks all ready to cut for the trial.
Identical intricate inlays compared to standard 4"Z factory set-up will be his "litmus test"
In Meantime Weston, How much Z do you need right NOW?
Maybe some tricks from others?
Bob D and I have both taken advantage of Adrian, Dana, and ScottW's help in the "Modify C2 Command" Thread from last week, and you have the Z prox already, so might help if you're working on tall material? Saves a little time as well lifting up to put dust foot on as well. Your prox's are set same as mine so look at Scott W's "setup" method that is already built in from Shopbot as it takes less time to install than it does to explain it.
Can't imagine how hot your garage must be:)

[Max Girouard]

Hello all. I'm the individual Scott speaks of who is having the modification made to my machine by a machinist. To make a long story short, a guitar builder in VT, came down to my shop to check out my desktop. He really liked it and ended up ordering one. When he was visiting, I told him the only shortcoming of the machine was the limited Z travel. He told me he may have a way to over come that issue, so after he got his machine, he disassembled his machine and sent it on over to his father for the modification. Some of the parts for the mod were purchased from Shopbot and the rest he made himself. Shortly thereafter he sent a video (which I'm trying to figure out how to upload to this thread) It shows his machine with total Z travel sufficient to get the face of the collet 4.5" above the lowest point of mechanical interference (the bottom of the z ball screw.) So if everything lines up the same once the mod is installed looks like I'll have about 9.5 inches of Z travel. This will finally allow me to carve instrument necks that would require a 4 inch cutter. He gave me his fathers contact info and after a quick phone call I decided to have him make the mod to my machine. Since he had already done the modification, he did not need me to send him any parts of my machine while he worked on the mod. He is sending it out this week and I should have it installed sometime next week. I'll have more photos and do a video of mine traveling in the Z axis as well. I have no reason to believe that the mod will decrease accuracy, but as always I test everything new in the shop so I'll post those results as well. Feel free to PM me for his contact info. I don't want to post his contact info on the forum to prevent those spam bots from infiltrating his email account. Also, I have no financial interest in this project.

[scottp55]

Max,Can you link it to YouTube somehow. That vid showing it going up,up,and UP was Great!:)

[Max Girouard]

OK, here is a link to the video clip I just posted of his machine with the Z installed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAxu4HQW6Zo&feature=youtu.be

[Max Girouard]

Also, here is a shot of the bits n pieces as they were being worked on.........

[scottp55]

Enough Z for you Weston? :)

[Coogara]

That would solve a lot of problems. Very nice.

Shipping cost to Australia please. :)

[wespor]

Enough Z for you Weston? :)

It's beautiful!

[wespor]

So the limit will be the gantry height? Did they change the gantry height between the old/new Desktop upgrade?

[Brady Watson]

So the limit will be the gantry height? Did they change the gantry height between the old/new Desktop upgrade?

No. Same as it ever was...

I would be cautious about how cutting much force you exert with a raised Z, especially in the Y direction, because that gantry wasn't designed for a Z that long. (Simple physics - short lever vs. long lever) The same deflection issues that occur on large gantry tools with a 12" Z will also show themselves with this setup.

Of course, that said - has nothing against the spirit of tinkering, retrofitting and upgrading these machines. I'm all about making the tool YOURS to suit YOUR needs...which I think is in the spirit of true 'ShopBotting'.

-B

[scottp55]

Brady, good to know about Y direction-Makes sense when you think about it. Think Max and his friend should be good, as one does guitars and Max does mandolins and it's more the shape of what they're cutting and the need for a 4" bit to reach the whole surface that got them"out of the box".
Not like they'll be doing post and beam with ebony,quilted, and MOP:)
Max, what diameter is that long bit? and again-What will it be doing? Can you show a pic? I think you said it was for the necks?
Brady, the plate is 1/2" thick vs our 1/4". Is that going to put a significant strain on any of the components like steppers?
I take it you've worked on the 12"? Any other idiosyncrasies inherent in the design Max should be aware of-or concerned about? Believe he's router-not spindle.
Congrats Max and Lauri! Looking forward to a blow-by-blow of the install:)

[Max Girouard]

Hi Brady, thanks for the tip. Due to the shape of my object, I will be doing very little cutting with the Z raised up. For my particular situation, the higher Z for me is to allow for clearance without topping out, and the use of a single ball mill for the whole file taking 0.010 passes after the roughing pass.

Scott, here is a photo of my neck. For this neck the highest point is the heel which is about 2 inces tall. So add the vacuum fixture, the 2 inch cutter and I'm just scraping by with almost no Z for safe Z pullup which I change when running this file to .2 I use a .5 end mill for a roughing pass, then a .5 ball mill for the finishing pass. The cutter does travel mostly in the X direction. On my other larger sized mandolin family instruments, that heel height is going to increase up to 4 inches in length while the rest of the neck will remain the same. None of my parts are machined to final dimensions as I've got to hand fit a dovetail on each one, so they are a bit oversized to allow for this shaping and final sanding of the neck. I'm sure I'll see some deflection as the Z is completely raised on these models, but like I said these are oversized and it is not a problem for me. I'm more concerned with maintaining the accuracy of the machine within the first couple of inches of travel as that is where some of my parts are machined close to final dimensions.

[steve_g]

I don’t want to put words in Brady’s mouth, But… I think what he meant in his previous post by “a raised Z” was the entire raised Z concept and not just when the Z is in the “raised” position. In fact, those of us with raised Z’s or the 12” one, often use a “filler” to cut with more precision with the Z axis in a higher position and therefore less leverage against the mechanics of the axis...
If I’ve misunderstood something here, please correct me!
SG

[scottp55]

Thanks for explanation Max. Like the extra 1,000 words,that doesn't look like Aspire?
I typically run VCP with a .2" Safe-Z, but only rarely with SB3, just to speed up the cuts,with my Plunge(Z2) set to .02". I can see how close you were to topping out(and you had material there before cutting!).

Steve, I THINK I know what you mean by "filler"? How much Z do you have-and at what height do you have your most accurate cuts with the least leverage? I'm a visual guy and I think I'm going out to shop for some hands on with spindle lowered/raised to fully grasp("Grok":)) it.

[steve_g]

“How much Z do I have?”
Good Question! It’s 12” from the factory, I added a 2 layers of ¾ ” Baltic Birch to my bed and a ¾” Medex layer for a spoil board, then I lost a little bit with my belt reduction boxes… I’ve never measured what I have, but it’s enough!
When I add a “filler” it’s a been a 2’X2’ framework of 2”X4” material with ¾” Medex on both sides… That raises me bed 5” and gets my Z into a sweeter area for better detail when V-carving. It’s always been my intent to hook a vacuum up to the filler and use it for a huge “puck”, but I never have.
SG

[scottp55]

Thanks Steve, Looked at mine earlier, and it looks like with a 3/4" vac fixture on top of spoilboard it might VCarve even tighter and crisper than it does already, Which is kind of hard to imagine! (for 4/4 that is).

[Max Girouard]

Scott, that is a print preview in Rhino 4.

Steve, that all makes sense about the higher Z set up. Luckily for us desktop owners the little machine is an over built beast. I can see how on the taller machines, running the router low on a sheet good could induce a lot of flex and it makes perfect sense to use a filler. On the desktop, we never are really that far off from the X rails. So for the most part, I anticipate all my cutting will be with the Z car centered right at my X rails which is where the machine would provide the most accuracy. If I was to use the machine extended all the way up with a super long bit, I'm sure that I would see deflection in both the bit and travel in the y direction, as a result of the long lever situation. Lucky for me, it is more about having the clearance to bring a 3 inch bit over the highest part of my object that I'm cutting. Eventually I plan on cutting necks that have a 4 inch height at the heel, but that won't be for some time.

I did get the mod in this week, but I'm waiting to finish a small production run of a few parts before I swap over to the new mod. Here is a photo of the parts right before they were shipped. As promised, I'll be sure to get lots of photos of the swap out as I do it. I sure could have used the extra Z this week as I lost a part due to topping out on the Z axis after forgetting to change my safe Z height.

[scottp55]

Anodized? Nice! Now you're going to have a black and blue bot:)
Close to topping out here today trying to surface out a 34X17X 1.74 live edge piece of quilted that cupped and twisted all to heck. Need a thickness sander:)
Have fun.

[Max Girouard]

Got the Z mod on and it is working perfectly! I machined my smallest most intricate part and saw no loss of accuracy. I'll work posting some photos and a video in another thread, but now it's time for some wobbly pop, and dreaming of all that will come with my 9 + inches of Z travel!

[scottp55]

Like the Ribbon Tensioner? Not sure what you call it:)
Any problems installing?

[KevinP]

Hey guys!

It's Kevin from ShopBot here. One of the guys here just brought this thread to my attention. I know I'm not too active on here, but it's because I'm busy making new ShopBots most of the time.

SO- We have increased the travel on the desktop machines to 5.5" recently (from just a tad over 4"). All new machines are shipping with that upgrade as of a month or two ago.

I have a retrofit kit available for sale. The cost is between $245 and $255 depending on how old your desktop machine is. I've been waiting to sell it because I wanted to get the install document all sorted out to avoid phone calls, but it's pretty much done at this point.

It'll take between 20 minutes and a couple hours to install, depending on how familiar you are with the machine and how adept you are with tools. (it'd take me 20 minutes because I designed the machine and the kit. It'd take a first-timer up to a couple hours possibly).

If anyone is interested in the kit, send me an email at kevin (at) shopbottools.com or just call the office and ask for me. 919-680-4800

If, however, you want to go with something crazy like a 9" Z travel, you can get up with Max on that one for now.

In the future, if anyone EVER wants something custom on their ShopBot, we do that sort of thing in house. You'd be amazed at the stuff we've sold over the years. All you have to do is ask us- we rarely say no. Ryan is the man to talk to about custom tools. And believe me, he keeps busy with them....

[scottp55]

Thanks Kevin, Seems Very reasonable for cost. Want a "High Traffic Area" sign for your desk?:)

[JohnCoker]

I was hot on this upgrade until I realized that I would rarely be able to take advantage of the extra travel. I'll probably do it given the reasonable price, but I'd hate to lose precision because of it.

The upgrade I really want is a third axis capable of handling 6" OD tubes. I think I'll have to wait until the day I have more shop space for one of the larger machines, though.

[vanamaxagon]

I'm just finishing another Desktop 9.5" z mod. Seems like the luthiers in the NE love this mod. It makes an already great machine REALLY great!
The "ribbon tensioner" is a constant force spring which counter balances the weight of the router and slide.

[scottp55]

Sounds perfect for the Luthiers Marty! Had to do our 2 at once, and still not making much money so went Shopbot upgrade, even an extra 1.5" will open a lot of new projects for us. Great work!

[Max Girouard]

I just started a new thread about Marty's mod so as not to get it confused with the Shopbot 5.5 inch mod.......

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?p=169470&posted=1#post169470