Home Depot - don't trust the label

[phil_o]

I had a request for a small plywood project. I went to Home Depot and bought a 1/4" x 2' x 4' panel. 1/4" thick, at least that's what it said on the sticker, the ones they always put on the good side and they are damn near impossible to remove.
I cut the sheet in half to 1' x 4' and tried to clamp it down with my clamps designed for 1/4" material. The clamps couldn't do it. The material was only .187 - 3/16" thick. Good thing I noticed this before cutting. My cut was set to .2", it would have gone all the way through and ruined the project.
I've had bad plywood experiences before at Home Depot but now I know you can't even trust the labels. :mad:

Phil

[tri4sale]

I had a request for a small plywood project. I went to Home Depot and bought a 1/4" x 2' x 4' panel. 1/4" thick, at least that's what it said on the sticker, the ones they always put on the good side and they are damn near impossible to remove.
I cut the sheet in half to 1' x 4' and tried to clamp it down with my clamps designed for 1/4" material. The clamps couldn't do it. The material was only .187 - 3/16" thick. Good thing I noticed this before cutting. My cut was set to .2", it would have gone all the way through and ruined the project.
I've had bad plywood experiences before at Home Depot but now I know you can't even trust the labels. :mad:

Phil

Reminds my how TV's are now advertised as 55-Inch Class TV" and so forth, when they are only 54" across. Pretty soon you'll see the labels say 1/4" class wood which means it can be anywhere from 3/16" to 5/16"

I picked up a sheet of 4x8 1/2" thick from Lowes, but it varried from .48 to .52 depending on where I measured. Can't trust the labels anywhere.

[dlcw]

Same goes with wood dowels. Incredible range of readings on a supposed dimensioned dowel.

Thicknesses also vary greatly when purchasing plywood from a wholesale supplier. 3/4" prefinished American Maple plywood ranges from .70" to .755" with .03" variations within a sheet. Same with 1/2" and 1/4". Huge variations in thickness. Even 5/8" Appleply (supposed high end plywood) varies greatly in thickness.

Kinda disappointing, but I guess that's life in the never ending quest to cut costs, but raise prices.

[khaos]

Do you think this is partly because the wood was not fully dry when manufactured. Or the relative moisture is higher lower at the usage geography?

[Brady Watson]

It's all due to greed. Plain & simple. Vote with your dollar.

-B

[Ajcoholic]

For the majority of my cabinetry I use particle core veneer. I buy a few lifts every few months of maple, and mini lifts of oak, ash, etc. I can say all my veneers are with 5 thousands no joke. That's why I prefer pc over veneer core. For my backs I use a 1/2" poplar core ply that is about .45" and isn't too bad although it does very much more in thickness. But for a back rabetted onto the case thickness variance isn't critical.

Since I groove my face frames onto my cases, variance in the veneer wouldn't be an option for me. If a customer specs veneer core, I buy what I need usually custom ordered and use it up. All the ply I get is produced here in cansda in either ontario or Quebec. It's not bad stuff at all.

I looked at imported ply once. Never bought any. Never will. Too much variance and warping in what I saw.

Never bought anything from the local HD, or any other hardware store. But. Know they stock the lower grades if material in our local store. And sell it retail for what I buy premium for from my wholesaler.

[phil_o]

In my case I'm guessing the issue had more to do with a minimum wage employee who never bothered to check. He/she probably was texting while allegedly working.

Phil

[jTr]

Joe says:
Do you think this is partly because the wood was not fully dry when manufactured.

I believe so. I've had it measured as low as .705 thickness. Look at the telegraphing of substrate, especially on pre-finished UV Maple plywood. They're sanding with large wide belts, so I'm sure it's smooth when coming out. May help if the mfg held the stacks for a week of curing prior to sanding, but clearly that would destroy efficiency of the whole process.

I also agree with Andrew, particle core (MDF) is quite reliable for thickness and smoothness (no telegraphing). Currently using some red oak that ranges from .738 to .740.
I personally prefer the "classic" core, which is fir center veneers and ~1/8" sub-skins of MDF to accept the veneers and stay smooth. However, hitting $95 per sheet, local supplier is pushing more and more towards the MDF core and eliminating that option. I Just hate the weight and not being able to claim a "no particle board" product.

As to home center plys - I always find my self wandering to the ply aisle due to pricing temptation, but just horrid stuff. Top sheet or three are always curled, and you just know once you pull an optimal looking sheet, it's gonna walk across the shop once fully exposed.

Certainly, plywood has become a "buyer beware" venture anymore.

jeff

[Ger21]

This is nothing new. Router bit manufacturers have been making undersize "plywood dado" bits for over 20 years.

[phil_o]

A lot of Home Depot's "better" plywood is just plain trash. I bought 3 sheets of birch plwood (regular plywood) all three sheets delaminated. I might buy quarter sheets for convenience on a small project but I'll never buy full sheets. Now i know enough to measure it before I buy.

Phil

[feinddj]

Actually, Its a nominal dimension. Just as lumber is sold as 4/4 or 16/4. When finished milling it gets smaller. The plywood sheets might(maybe) have been 1/4 inch and then thickness sanded to smooth. The issue is that the standards still let them get away with it. I make a practice of using the z to table which solves the issue of variance unless you have a dado or rabbet to contend with.

D

[dlcw]

Lots of time I use a gold-ply core. This is a wood veneer core with a 1/8" layer of MDF under the veneer. This provides for a very consistent and very smooth outside veneer. The only problem is screw holding strength goes down a little because of the MDF. It is also a LOT heavier then veneer ply. Also more expensive.

[Ajcoholic]

I like to educate my customers on why I prefer particle core cabinet plywood vs veneer core. Better consistency, harder face under the veneers for better impact resistance, stays flatter long term. No issues with possible delamination (blistering) which happens periodically.

Weight is only an issue for me handling things in the shop. Once the cabinets are in the home it's a moot point.

I only use veneer core if they really dislike particle board. But that is generally because they think all pb is the light weight junk they make the KD stuff with at wall mart. Once I explain my views they are usually ok and understand.

But veneer core does have it's place too.

[kubotaman]

What you bought was "import". I don't buy it since this is AMERICA!!!

[gibl5s]

This is not just home depot. I have built cabinets since '81 and for years now the dimensions have been metric. 1/4" = 5mm. the only REAL 1/4" plywood is Baltic birch. it comes in a 5'x5' sheet.

[scottp55]

I was just at Rockler a couple weeks ago and bought a half sheet of their Baltic Birch 3/4" to save me a trip to my hardwood supplier. Just put it on the Desktop yesterday and it measured between .69 to .7" on a half of a half sheet. I think I won't save myself a trip in the future. Very nice matched plug was hidden by their sticker on back side:( So much for trusting Rockler "Premium Russian Baltic Birch" label.

[Burkhardt]

...... and it measured between .69 to .7" on a half of a half sheet......

Classification, dimensions and tolerances for European general use plywood HERE (http://europlywood.com/muu/certifications/). I believe that includes the common Baltic or Russian Birch sheets.

What you may buy here as 3/4" Baltic Birch (which would be 19.05mm) is in reality a nominal 18mm plywood to European standard which can be anywhere from 17.3mm (0.68") to 18.9mm (0.74") thick and still meet spec. Assuming the manufacturers have their process under control, I bet they shoot for the low end of the tolerance range to save some wood.

[Mayo]

Many try and justify this however they like but I agree with Brady.
Big business consistently tries to maximize profits. If it means giving less and trying to fool people about what they're getting, so be it.

Everything is shrinking and costing more.

A pound size bag of coffee now has 12 to 14 oz. in it.
Cereal boxes have a lot less content for a lot more money.
Soup cans used to be 16 oz.
Don't get me going about the snack food bags with 70% air in them.
And the chips are way down at the bottom.

Even toilet paper is shrinking! Larger core diameters and narrower paper width. Someone could make a fortune coming out with an EZ Wider version of TP!
Toothpaste, shampoos, and various personal care products all with less for more $$.

This is what's known as hidden inflation.
Without getting too political, the buying power of the dollar is rapidly shrinking before our eyes.

If they can get away with selling "nominal dimension" lumber, we should claim "nominal payment" of the price. Since you're really giving me 75% of what you're calling this, I'll pay you 75% of the price you're asking.

I think it's only through clever marketing tactics that people have been brainwashed into accepting under sized lumber as the way it is.

I know the argument can be made that they start with a real 2x4 and after milling it becomes 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 but I say it's still unethical to call it a 2x4. Charge me for the whole thing and I should get the sawdust from milling since I paid for it.

Sorry for getting this thread on a tangent - we now return you to your regularly scheduled commercial. Have you noticed even television has less programming and more commercials per viewing hour?

[Burkhardt]

I don't like the confusing discrepancy between nominal and actual size of Dimensional Lumber but as long as everybody plays to the same rules and all parties know what they get I guess that works for me. Wikipedia has an interesting article about the history of dimensional lumber and the current funny standard apparently goes back to 1961.

But I come from Europe where the nominal size is usually the actual target (plus minus tolerance). The US system took me while to get used to.

I don't have a problem with 18 mm BB being whatever the tolerance allows but calling it 3/4" is misleading. Why not say it is 18mm?

But if plywood it is made in the US and still undersize by definition that is disingenuous.

[waynelocke]

I've been in the business 35+ years and making dadoes, grooves or rabbets for plywood has always required test cuts and different setups because it has never been exactly 3/4", 1/2" or 1/4". The metric sizes have just muddied the water more but when has it ever been exactly 3/4" or whatever. Dealing with that is just part of the craft.

[dlcw]

Even hardwood isn't properly sized any more. Here, out west, everything gets skipped planed before it is shipped from the east. My 4/4 is actually 13/16", my 5/4 is actually 1 1/8". About 50% of my 4/4 won't thickness to 3/4" because of bowing and warping that I can't joint out. My 5/4 won't thickness to 1" for the same reason.

So hardwood wholesalers are doing the same thing. Selling less material then what you are supposed to get, for the same or higher price.

My local tire store sold to me and installed a new front hub for my mini van and 8 months later it was missing 2 lug bolts and the bearings were leaking. A friend of mine, who used to work there, was asked one time by the owner what business they were in. He replied they were in the business to help customers with tire and suspension issues with their cars. The owner said NO. We are in business to make money and my friend was told to go back into the car bays and start "finding" additional things they could charge the customer for. My friend quit right on the spot. He has ethics, which it appears the business owners don't have.

It's all about greed for the $$.

[Ger21]

Even hardwood isn't properly sized any more. Here, out west, everything gets skipped planed before it is shipped from the east. My 4/4 is actually 13/16", my 5/4 is actually 1 1/8". About 50% of my 4/4 won't thickness to 3/4" because of bowing and warping that I can't joint out. My 5/4 won't thickness to 1" for the same reason.


This also has been going on forever.
Skip planed lumber starts out as full thickness rough lumber. If you don't want it skip planed, by from another supplier.
We buy thousands of board feet/year, and none of it is skip planed.
I don't think they're dropping it off to be skip planed somewhere between me and you.

Some figured wood, however, is usually only available skip planed.

[dlcw]

None of my suppliers out here in WA offer domestic hardwoods without skip planing. They say it is done to optimize train car/truck loading. The wood is flatter and they can get more on a pallet.

I understand their reasoning. I just don't like that I am being charged for 4/4 and getting only 13/16". The basic, not getting what I paid for and I have no recourse.

When I lived near Cincinnati I could get TRUE 4/4, 5/4, 8/4 all day long from my suppliers. It's interesting out here because even domestics native to this area are skip planed.

[Xray]

Most stated thickness of sheet material is nominal, not only wood.
I have yet to see .25 plexiglass .25 or .5 .5, it is always a little under, so if you need extreme accuracy which we all sometimes do, better to assume it will not be exactly as stated [or better yet, bring a good set of calipers to measure it before you buy.