Centurion Tools CNC bits...

[harryball]

Guys,

I rarely encounter such enthusiastic and professional treatment from a company as I have with Centurion Tools. When Ed Lang recommended them his endorsement was so over the top I was almost suspicious. You may have read a great review of them before so I won't repeat everything. I'll go to the jest of things you may find useful.

They supply tooling to large companies for machining that is often static. i.e. a furniture company may order the same set of bits over and over. As such their selection is somewhat dictated by previous orders but if you can find what you need in what they have the prices are very competitive. This is not to say they don’t have a good selection of typical tools, they do. You just may not find the same variety as from other commercial vendors.

They can custom mill almost anything you need but they are limited to what their tooling is capable of producing. Again, you might have to go to a commercial vendor to find those smaller bits or odd bits. Custom milled items may cost more and take longer to get but even so, the prices are very competitive and you get a custom tool.

They are use to customers knowing what they want when they call, don’t let that scare you off though, they are very knowledgeable about tooling and can offer help. I would suggest being courteous and realize their time is precious as is yours so “having some kind of a clue” when you call would be the polite thing to do.

Their prices are very competitive and I have received my first order of bits from them. I’ve found the quality to be better than expected. I looked a few of the edges under my microscope and compared them to the other brand. I found a very minor chip on one of the ¼” bits all the way at the top of the cutting flute as it came to the shank. It was only visible to the naked eye once I knew where it was and will not affect performance. Some of my other brand bits exhibited a pit here or there as well. I found nothing to suggest sub-standard tooling. I’d like to compare this to one popular brand “red” bit I purchased which exhibited multiple pits and micro chips fresh from the wrapper.

The 1/8” bit with 5/8” CEL has performed just was well or better than my previous brand. The ¼” compression bit has performed just as well as my compression bit from another vendor and doesn’t exhibit the same shrill “scream” I was getting from the previous bits. Cutting quality is indistinguishable. As for longevity… well at the price I paid if it lasts 35% as long I’ll be to the good. It has already cut about 8% of the expected life of the more expensive bit and cut quality on the last cuts I did yesterday were just as good as the first.

I’ve not had the opportunity to use some of the other bits yet, but as I continue to use the tooling I’ll add updates on what I discover. I’d encourage anyone purchasing bits to give them a try. I was told their new website would be online soon complete with online ordering. They are at www.centuriontools.com (http://www.centuriontools.com)

Robert

[ed_lang]

Hi Robert!

When I wrote my first post about Centurion Tools I felt like I was writing an ad for the company. That was not the case, but I could not find any other way to write about them. It does seem too good to be true, that is high quality and fair price.

I hope you too find the tool life to be much longer than the "other" tools you have used.

I feel lucky that I have such a gold mine located in the same county with me.

I gave Centurion Tools my dull and trashed ShopBot table surfacing cutter that came with the starter bit set. I got back an insert cutter that I tested today for the first time after installing a new table on my machine. I was cutting my first layer of plywood that is bolted to the frame and found that I didn't have one of the carriage bolts down as far as I thought. Yep, cut the top of the bolt off. I knew I had messed up the new cutter. I let the machine continue and guess what! The cutter still cuts like a champ. I finished the table and glued on the second sheet. I just finished surfacing that one and it is as slick as glass!

It is nothing short of MAGIC what these guys can do with carbide. Those guys are "sharp", yes, pun intended.

Good cutting!

Ed

[handh]

Ed,

Is the table surfacing cutter the same dia. How much did it cost and how much are the cutter inserts. Thanks

[ed_lang]

Jeff,

This is the prototype so I cannot answer any questions except to say it works great and the inserts can be turned over when dull. It is the same dia.

Sorry, I just don't have the information you want.

Email or call Centurion Tools.

Ed

[handh]

Ed,

Thanks and I will call them in the next couple of days. I like the idea of the cutter being the same dia. I just haven't gone to a insert cutter because of the only ones that I have come across are so large.

What speeds are your running with the new cutter. Feed rate and cutter speed.

Jeff

[ed_lang]

Jeff,

Since I was testing this cutter for the first time, I ran it with many feeds and speeds. I started it at about 3IPS and 9K RPM and went all the way up to about 10IPS and 18K RPM. Since I was taking only 0.20" from the plywood, I would say I never found out how far I could push this cutter and still get good surfaces from it. The table was like glass at all of those speeds. The cut on the bolt top was also like I had polished it. Not that I am going to continue to test this cutting in metal :-)

[harryball]

Update: I used the 120 degree V bit... I'm surprised at how well it cuts considering it's design. It seems simple sometimes is just better. You can see my BankersDashBoard sign in the show and tell. The 120 degree cut the mask cleaner than the 60 degree bit that came with the SBot. That may be a factor of the angle rather than cutting edge. However, I'm pleased with the result.

The 1/8" bit has already outlasted my other 1/8" end mills. I generally would get about 10 good sheets per bit. It is cutting the 11th sheet of roosting grooves and pre-drilling as I type. The cuts still look clean.

The 1/4" compression bit is doing well also, I'd say I'm at about 40% to 50% of the expected life of my previous bit.

I'm really itching to try out this 3/8" roughing bit on some cedar. I've just been too busy to take the time to get my vac holddown mask ready and get the parts cut. On the bright side I'm using the last of my hand cut cedar part reserve today so I'll either have to cut more by hand or get my vac jig ready.

Robert

[ed_lang]

Batman,

Those roughing bits are quite the thing to look at. I have had some of the real large cutters in my hand the Centurion makes and they are impressive to say the least.

Your results of their tooling matches mine. I kinda felt like folks would think I was trying to "sell" Centurion Tools since they are almost in my back yard.

If there is enough interest in a ShopBot Camp in the central part of Virginia, I just might host one at my shop. You can bet that Centurion Tools will be here and we might even be able to take a tour of their facility. Talk about fancy CNC machines......

[harryball]

And another update...

I used the 3/8" three flute roughing bit today on cedar after getting my hold down working and my Z axis adjusted higher. WOW... I ran at 5 ips and 10k RPM and it was like cutting butter. The chips were a little small so I'm going to keep tweaking the file looking for that perfect balance but the performance was astounding.

I broke one of my 1/8" bits cutting MDF, I figured had the bit cutting for at least 4 or 5 hours of cutting time on various jobs before I broke it about 30 minutes into this job. It seems odd, I was using cheap MDF doing test cuts and I am almost sure I must have struck something in the material. My other 1/8" bit went on to cut the real MDF based product for several hours. I feel like I got my moneys worth out of the first bit and am well on my way to getting it out of the second bit as well.

My 1/4" compression bit works very well also. It's holding up just as well as my other brand bits if not better.

Here are a few pics of the 3/8" rougher and results...


3455

3456

3457

[harryball]

Update... The 3 flute bit was tough to deal with chipload and the heat finally took off the edge prematurely. By the math I was getting less than a .008 chipload. Fred made a couple of 2 flute roughers with lighter pitches for me that look more promising after today. I'm able to get in the area of 0.015 chiploads.

I also finally wore out my first 5/32" cutter. I've been using it to cut grooves about .015 to .02" deep. It ran 26 sheets before I found it too rough on the edges of the cuts. I did the math and the bit hung in there for more than 2.5 MILES of grooves. This doesn't include all the holes it drilled. With a diamond hone I'm sure I could touch it up and keep going. I wish all my bits could live so long!

I'm still pleased with the service and quality of the carbide.

Robert

[centurion]

Centurion's new web site is up and running. Just wanted to let everyone know.

Fred

[Gary Campbell]

By the way.....
I called Fred the other day looking for a tool to cut an exotic wood that is harder than Corian. He checked with his sources and told what tool I should use. And then informed me that they could not provide it. You don't find honesty prevailing over the almighty dollar that much these days. Hats off to Fred and his crew. They will get my NEXT order.
Thanks Gary

[knight_toolworks]

what wood are you trying to cut? I cut a lot of exotic woods. I have not milled ebony yet but I have done some of the worst. I really like the rougher's for that work.

[harryball]

Probably Ipe, very hard wood, carries the same fire rating as concrete.

Robert

[knight_toolworks]

ipe is not a big deal I have milled it. been working with it for years. dust is some of the worst and finest of any tropical though.
myself I finer harder tropicals cut better then American woods. you may have to go slower but thats about it. ligunum vitae is about the hardest wood out there and it saws and machines fine so it should rout fine too.

[Gary Campbell]

Steve.. Robert is right, I was cutting Ipe. And you are right, its not a big deal. My problem was operator error, I was trying to cut it with a spiral up cut bit and the silica in the Ipe was tearing them up every 50 lft of cutting. I switched to a single O flute and the nicest 3/16" square by .012 flakes came off the tool. No more heat and 1 tool finished the job.
Gary

[knight_toolworks]

I have not cut enough ipe to really tell bit wear. I have broke enough 1/8" bits doing dumb things to not see wear. but yes ipe can wear tools out a bit faster. I have been using down cut 2f. what may work well are rougher bits too. I really like how they cut tropical woods.

[bleeth]

Spoke with Fred today and at my request they are making up some 5mm downcutters with a cel @7/8 and 1/4" shank. I told him that I bet I'm not the only one interested and would spread it around. They should be ready in a week or so.

Dave

[bill_lumley]

Dave , I am interested in these also but hesitate to do shelf pin drilling with them in case the holes plug up and burn the bit . What has the experience been with using a 5mm downcut bit to cut shelf holes . Do they need to be peck drilled or drilled in a single shot ?

Thanks Bill

[bill.young]

I rarely have to drill 5mm holes, but when I do I've had good luck using a smaller bit...a 3/16" bit is a little bit smaller than 5mm...and using the CP commands with the "spiral plunge with bottom pass" option turned on. It makes a tiny circle when it's plunging which reduces the friction and keeps the bit cooler.

Bill

[bleeth]

Bill L. I've turned out lots of 1/4" shelf holes with a 1/4" downcutter with no issues. I do it in a single shot.
Bill Y. I do all my toolpathing with Artcam Pro. When I cut small holes that are a bit larger than the diameter of the bit I find I am then dealing with minor bit and/or gantry flex issues. A typical series of paths will be:
1. Drill (for the shelf pins)
2. Hinge (An area clear for holes that get bungs for hinge plate attachment)-To be replaced by straight drilling 5mm holes for system screws
3. Dado (For putting in a 1/4" cabinet back)
4. Cutout (Cutting out the machined cab sides)

I nest the parts from various libraries (eg: base cab 30"H x 23D w/upper drawer) and apply toolpathing from a toolpath template. One sheet typically has six to 9 cabinet sides and they are not always the same plus stretchers and nailers from the scrap, although usually it's more efficient to cut those parts on the saw.

My next experiment will be to add dowel holes for assembly and end dowel the bottoms, tops, stretchers and nailers in a vertical jig off the end of the table, unless I can lay my hands on a horizonatal/vertical borer first.

All machining requires absolutely precise alignment and sizing or shelves rock, hinge screws don't work or are out of alignment, backs don't slide in correctly, etc.

Dave

[bleeth]

An update on the bits: Fred now has them on the site in 2 cel lengths. I'll let you know how they do at PRT cutting speeds. I ordered enough to take it to the limit and pop 1 or two in testing.
Dave

[ckurak]

Bill,

Some of us drill LOTS of 5mm holes. Having a 5mm bit that drills straight down gives a perfectly aligned hole that is EXACTLY 5mm. Having the hole just a bit smaller could/would affect hardware assembly later on in the cabinet-making process. (Those holes are used for other purposes than screws. E.g., Blum's INSERTA hinges use the 5mm hole for mounting the hinge's wing-plate. Too small of a hole would prevent assembly. Also, shelf-pin holes must be properly sized or they either a) the pins won't go in, or b) the pins will fall out easily.)

Regarding alignment: Having the hole even just a bit mis-aligned causes adjustable shelves to rock. (Rocking shelves are NOT a beneficial "feature" for a cabinet.)

Dave,

Why a downcutter?

Yes, I know that a downcutter will help with material hold-down, especially without a vacuum table. And, it will help prevent chip-out (or tear-out for plywood) on the top edge of the profile cut (you called it "Cutout").

However, what about chip-out on the bottom edge of your sheetstock when you are cutting profiles ?

Would a 5mm compression bit be better? This might have (almost) all of the attributes needed for cabinet panel processing.

Charles

[bill.young]

Charles,

I don't do production cabinet drilling..in that case I'm sure a 5mm bit end-drilling bit or an airdrill makes a lot of sense. I have, though, drilled a ton of 1/4" holes in marine plywood for assembly holes with 1/4" bits and my experience is much different from Dave's. I've found that bit life is terrible because of friction and burning, even with peck drilling. If I just cut them as circles that are a tiny bit bigger, the bits last a lot longer. Now this is with a router...a spindle may slow down enough that this problem doesn't occur.

The same technique has worked for me the few times I've needed to drill 5mm holes for Rafix connectors and shelf pins. A 3/16" bit is .1875" and a 5mm hole is .197" so the circle the 3/16" bit has to make to cut a 5mm home is only .01" diameter. I can't tell the difference in fit between using this technique and drilling the hole with a 5mm drill bit, and bit life sure seems to be better.

Of course our mileage may vary,
Bill

[richards]

I agree with Bill Y. The 5mm cutter that I normally use doesn't last very long at 12,000 RPM - and those spindle bearings on my Colombo aren't designed for plunge cuts. On the other hand, when I've experimented with a regular drill running at about 1,500 RPM, a brad-point drill lasts for thousands of holes.

Cutting 5mm holes with a 3/16-inch cutter also works very well as long as I use a slow feed speed , i.e. 1 to 2 ips. Anything faster and I get elliptical holes instead of circles. The method that I use is to drill straight down about 1/2 the depth of the hole and then do a spiral with bottom pass with the CP command. Works great.

[bleeth]

Charles-Compression bit in 5mm not available (or at least I haven't found one). I've been using downcutter 1/4" for a while now and have no chipout on bottom with either melamine or VG p-lam . I do use a vacuum. I figure that is why I haven't had that problem.
Since starting to use the bot to process this kind of thing (remember it is fairly new to me to use it for basic cab production) I've cut around 25 sheets of cabinet sides with one bit. No ramping. It is still not burnt or dull enough to toss. With the price of the bit under $15.00 I can't beat the economics of it. If Fred's 5mm does as well as the Whiteside 1/4" I will be spending a whole lot less in time by continuing to straight plunge and doing all my parts with the one bit. Both bits have a plunge bottom.
Mike: Whose 5mm cutter are you using? It seems to me (and I admit to not being the tech expert you are-I tend to learn from experience and listening to those who know more) that plunging .375" into relatively soft ply, mdf, or particle board shouldn't put that much of a strain on the bearings. As I recall you have the 3HP. Mine is the 5. Is there much difference in the bearings?

If I recall correctly, Eric L in Winter Haven had some issues with his Columbo bearings a few years back and with the aggressive cutting he does he monitors heat regularly. I expect that at the point when I'm processing 20-30 sheets/day instead of 20-30 sheets per week although pretty much all in one day I will need to keep a lot closer eye on this. My local woodworking equipment guy told me of a spindle out now that has the bearing mounted under a plate in such a way that you can change it in minutes. If I toast the Columbo I will look a whole lot closer at getting one of those with a quick change head.

[elcruisr]

Dave, what spindle is this? You've really got my curiosity with the quick change bearing. Hey, It's also Winter Garden!!! Still monitor bearing temps all through the day, very important when cutting at the limits of the setup for 8 hours straight! Some days that can be 40+ sheets.

When we do a lot of drilling it's usually 1/4" and I often use a single flute compression tool, peck drilling, 1/4" plunges and very low RPM like about 6,000 with a Z rate of 5"/sec. Tools will cut thousands of holes for me in ply. For melamine drilling we either use a down spiral or a plastics drill for through holes. Did one job that required thousands of 1/16" holes and used twist drills, a 1/16" collet and 4,000 RPMs with peck drilling. Worked like a charm.

[bill.young]

(I've summarized some of this info in the wiki in the "Machining Techniques" section under "Techniques")

[richards]

Dave,
I use the Freud 04-512 bit from www.RouterBitWorld.com (http://www.RouterBitWorld.com). Price is $10.24 each.

Here's a quote from the engineering support page from PDS Colombo:

"Electric Spindles designed for routing applications are equipped with bearings capable of enduring high radial loads (side cutting). When entering the work piece with these spindles it is important to keep the axial loads low in order to prolong bearing life.

When programming your work-piece, entry angles should be kept from 0º - 20º off the table. This will keep axial loading low and allow feed rates at 100%.

When the work piece design requires a steep entry angle, the feed rate should be reduced according to the chart. This will minimize axial force on the bearings."

You can find that page at www.pdscolombo.com/cutting_entry.htm (http://www.pdscolombo.com/cutting_entry.htm)

Because of the expense of a spindle, I try to ramp into a cut instead of plunging whenever possible. But, shelf holes have to be plunged unless I use a spiral ramp with the CC command.

[ckurak]

Mike,

Thanks for the info on the Freud bit. I just ordered two. It has to be better than what I am now using: 5mm bit w/ 6mm shank made for cutting plastic AND a 1/2" to 6mm adapter.

THANKS!!

Charles

[bcammack]

We plunge our Colombo for the sink cutout in our Elustra product, but only at 0.25" IPS, so it's a leisurely 5 second descent into the rather dense, hard material. We limit the spiral plunges to the faucet holes.

We get about six months out of a $400 set of bearings.

[bleeth]

Eric: Good thing you corrected me-I'd hate to be wandering around the wrong town next week looking for you!!
Out of curiosity-How many hours on your current set of bearings?
I'll share the info on the spindle when I get it this coming week.
Mike: Thanks for the link-I'll be perusing the whole document. I'm quite careful about warm-up and cool-down, but have been less so regarding plunging. The sketch of the Freud looks like on the bottom it is built like most standard straight bits which have a "hole" in the center where there is no cutting surface. If you look at Fred's you'll see that the tip is designed for plunging and will be a lot more efficient plunging.

http://www.centuriontools.com/router_bits_toolcase/centurion_tools_showcase.html?page=full&cart=11880 426633871910&__max=6&--eqskudatarq=5MMDS2.8752.5RES14&id1=374&id2=2&id3=4 24

I'll be slowing down my plunging rate.

[wayneo]

Hey Guys/Gals,
I am looking for a V-Bit recommendation.
I am trying to make clean cuts in Plastic (Acrylic and Polypropylene). Also any suggested lubricants or bit cooling.

Source / Dealer would be welcome as well.

Thanks,

-W

[burchbot]

Hi all
I’m going to order some Centurion 60 degree V bits. On their website the 2 inch long bits are priced higher than the 3 inch long bits. Is that a misprint?
Dan

[myxpykalix]

Burch here are some better pictures of the bits.60/90/120 and spiral

3458

3459

3460

3461

3462

[centurion]

The reason the 2" bit is more expensive, is the manufacturing process. We need to use 3" blanks to make the tool. We need to cut them off to make 2" length. We cannot mfr. the tool on the short blank due to interference problems

[centurion]

Centurion Tools www.centuriontools.com (http://www.centuriontools.com) has just added 6 new starter sets to the web site, with special pricing for the month of December

[burchbot]

Hi all
I just tried Centurions 60 degree V bits on two V carved photos. I have found my V bit supplier. They are the best 60 degree bits I have used. You owe it to yourself to give them a try.
Dan

[bleeth]

An update on the new 5mm downcut bit: When Fred made them up I ordered 5. We have been using them for a while now, and although I do not keep odometer tracking I can say that these little babies are great. We have been cutting melamine, pre-laminated plywood with liner, and prefinished veneer on MDF for various projects and the bits have a long life and have held up without a single breakage. I am only on my second bit and as you can see from above it has been months since we ordered. Our average project runs 25 to 40 boxes and we cut heavily weekly with small runs intermittantly. I drill and dado in one pass and cut parts out in two. Virtually no sanding prior to edgebanding. All parts are 3/4". We set cut speed (PRT Frame) at 1.75. When I finally get through putting together the new gantry (See "Upgrading the PRT topic") I'll be upping speed to around 4ips. Right now the gantry starts to flex cutting above that.
Dave

[propellers]

Looking for a solid carbide router bit 1/2" diameter shank 1/2" cut, rougher, spiral, 4.25" OAL and longer. The only one I found and use is the Bosh 2 flute straight. The PC router does not seem to wear any different than shorter bits. We use in most cases the Vortex bit and they are expensive and worth it but a custom bit is $300+ so looking for off the shelf lower cost bits.

[Gary Campbell]

Lonnie..
We bought some from ENCO..#890-9961 $45
Worked for us
Gary

[centurion]

Just for Christmas all sets on Centurion Tools web site have been reduced 10% If you buy a second set, we will increase the discount to 15% per set.

[rcnewcomb]

Well, after reading about these bits I figured that I'd give them a try.

I put a 1/4" downspiral in a new collet and tried pocketing with it on some sanded pine plywood - a material not known for giving good edge finishes.

I was astonished at how clean the cut was. I am sold. These are outstanding bits.