Hold down with Black Box Vac

[harryball]

Well, one of my feins finally died and I needed to get back to work quickly. I discovered http://www.blackboxvac.com with some help from the forum here and learned they were in Jasper, GA. That was close enough for me to go get what I needed and be running by the end of the day rather than building something myself after waiting on shipping for parts not to mention design time.

I decided not to go back with Feins. While I found their performance acceptable, I was never thrilled with it. The most it would pull completely sealed was 6.5" Hg and about 5.5" in practical use. They did the job but I did often have to tape edges and be very careful with cut order.

I was skeptical about the Black Box vacs, I mean that's a nice chunk of change for a "black box" with 4 vac heads in it. But, having seen it now I'll say its had a lot of thought put into it and no skimping on materials. It is hooked up and is running well pulling 10" Hg on the same vac guage I used with the feins. In practical use I'm seeing 7" Hg running one stage and 9" running both stages on a full sheet. I could generally cut at about 5.5" Hg with the feins using tape to seal the edges if needed to get the sheet down.

I have videos and pictures on the way. After running about 12 sheets so far I can't speak to longevity yet but it has worked very well. I believe with the extra power I will be able to reduce some of the use of tabs in my cut files.

I'll keep you posted as I keep running it and post video links to YouTube as I get them uploaded.

[David Iannone]

Those look like nice units. Vacuum hold down is next on my wish list for my bot. I have done a lot of reading on the forum, and would rather not build my own box. This looks like it might be a good fit for me.

Which one did you get?

[harryball]

I got the Hurricane with 4 motors. It is overkill but nice to have. I've ran 14 sheets with just the 2 motors, but as I type this I had a sheet with excessive lift along one edge, the two motors couldn't pull it doe and keep it. I had about 1/8" gap under it. Normally I'd close it with masking tape which would pull it down when sealed. In this case I powered up the second stage and it sucked it right down. The sheet just finished, no tape needed, nothing moved. Nice.

/RB

[jerry_stanek]

Isn't that unit the same one that Gary made available on this forum.

[harryball]

Yes, that's where I got some of the the info was from those posts. I don't know all the political ties but the guy I talked to at Black Box Vacs was named Paul. Seemed like a pretty nice guy.

[Gary Campbell]

Jerry, et al....
Some clarification:

The Hurricane Vacuum that Robert has is not from the same design as the original design (circa 2010) that after a few dozen units sold, was given as open source to this forum.

Over time I received numerous inquiries from individuals that had made their own "improvements" and took some shortcuts which resulted in numerous failures and less than optimal vacuum performance. I also received requests for complete units. My employment at that time did not allow me to sell products that might be perceived at competing against products that my employer sold. That restriction no longer exists.

My newest new design (circa 2013) was improved upon and is being manufactured by Paul and Joey of Black Box Vacuum Solutions, Inc., and are sold to a number of OEM CNC manufacturers (and individuals) thru their www.usroutertools.com (http://www.usroutertools.com) website. I do not have a stake in either corporation, but do have a financial interest. This new version can be ordered stand alone with a machine or built in and plumbed on some brands, or drop shipped direct to the customer. I do not believe ShopBot is among them. Some of the changes to this latest version are:

Smaller more efficient design, with better airflow
Up to four 2" openings with optional zone valve for each
The enclosure is no longer made from wood products
Thermal breakers control the main and secondary vac motors (safety)
Vacuum relief valves are included
Cooling intake air is filtered
Forced air fan cooling for the vac motors
Easy access to motors and control wiring

Of course a ready to run, plug in and cut, warranted solution is not for every one, but then again, neither are the trials and tribulations of uninformed DIY projects, especially by those inexperienced with vacuum hold down. And please believe me that vacuum hold down is one of the most misunderstood subjects in the small CNC world.

Sorry for the shameless marketing plug, but I do wish to set the record straight.

[jerry_stanek]

Thanks for clearing that up. But isn't it still based on the one you posted. Robert I was wondering how the noise level and heat level is compared to your old system. My shop is small gets pretty hot here in the summer

[Gary Campbell]

Jerry...
I will try this again. NO. The new version is a total redesign. So that you may understand the concept, take 2 products that use similarly named parts with different specs and designs. Like your machine at home and the one you run at work. Or, a pinto and a BMW. Virtually all the parts of each are similar in name, but by using a different design a totally different performance level can be achieved.

Heat is a product of the motors. Average for these are 550 air watts or 1600 input watts per motor. I assume that they generate near 1600 watts of heat. Compared to a Fein's 1100. Double the air watts for 50% more heat. Sounds like a winner. As far as noise goes.... If you need quiet, go with the Fein.

[harryball]

Again, I'm not interested in any politics here and wish to remain objective, but I appreciate Gary's explanation. So far as I'm concerned, I found a company that makes what I needed and bought it.

The vacs are louder than the feins. My original installation had the feins outside in a cabinet and I was going to put the blackbox vac outside as well. I originally just pulled the feins out, put in the blackbox vac, plugged in the two hoses that connected to the feins and powered it up. It sucked the hoses FLAT immediately. I tried a few tricks but couldn't keep the hoses from collapsing so I moved the vac inside under the table and replumbed the PVC direct to the unit (a more conventional solution). I will probably attempt to move them outside again in the future, but I needed to get up and running for the moment.

They are louder, but I wear hearing protection and it is comfortable. With only 2 motors running it isn't bad, with all 4 running (rarely when needed) it is noticeably louder.

I was concerned about the extra heat, but was actually surprised it didn't put out more heat than it did. Don't get me wrong, they do produce heat but not like I expected and the shop temp remained reasonable running like I normally run things.

When I get videos online I'll report back again.

/RB

[knight_toolworks]

heat I roasted this summer when I was running 6+ hours steady. I only got a 6 degree increased but it seemed like more. how quiet is the setup? thats my big battele keeping it quiet so I don't always need hearing protection.

[harryball]

Here is a video of the vac replacement...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56J8GZ765Uc

Let me know if you have questions.

[Kyle Stapleton]

Was that 3/4 acx ply?
How long did the Fein for?
Looks good!!

[harryball]

The nice sheet is 1/2" ACX and I think a shot of some 3/8" BCX we use for the internal baffles is the other sheet shown.

[harryball]

heat I roasted this summer when I was running 6+ hours steady. I only got a 6 degree increased but it seemed like more. how quiet is the setup? thats my big battele keeping it quiet so I don't always need hearing protection.

I would not be comfortable without hearing protection when they are running but I'm not comfortable around the Feins or the Dust Collector either so I'm not the best judge of "how loud" things are. I would not think you would want to be around them for prolonged periods without hearing protection.

[tri4sale]

I would not be comfortable without hearing protection when they are running but I'm not comfortable around the Feins or the Dust Collector either so I'm not the best judge of "how loud" things are. I would not think you would want to be around them for prolonged periods without hearing protection.

I've run a decibel meter and just the bot by itself cutting ran into the "red" danger zone, and when I turned on the Fein's, the Dust collector, and then the air cleaner, it was well into red danger zone. Should always wear ear protection when running the bots.

If you have an iPhone you can download an app called "Decibel 10th" to see how loud your shop is.

[Bill Keehn]

Ok Gary, just for clarification,
The one Robert has is not your original design, but is an improved version of your 2013 design, right?

[Gary Campbell]

Bill...
Correct. Exactly as stated in my post #6.

[pakpresident]

I saw your video for vac.
can you show photo for vacuum table top and under tha table.
I don't have idea how i can built table and hose.
please help me.
I got shobot 2008 , but i still don't have vacuum
I can not wait anymore
thanks

[knight_toolworks]

this is a bit of a old thread but I was thinking of getting another black box I don't have to build. Now that there is a decent setup pre built its a easier choice. but I have been thinking of using a whole house vaccum. this one is pretty beefy but it has the advantage of hanging on the wall and it is quiet so when I am cutting thin material I can ave it running without hearing protection.
https://www.centralvacuumstores.com/central-vacuum/powerunits/power-units/imperium-cv3800-power-unit I would use two and save having two motors running


Voltage - 240
Max Amps - 13
Air Watts - 1040
CFM - 220
Water Lift - 123"
Sound Level - 74 db
Motor - (2) 5.7" 2 Stage, Tangential By-Pass
Filtration - Inverted Bag (https://www.centralvacuumstores.com/astrovac-rb24w-large-inverted-bag)
Dirt Capacity - 38 Quarts
Dimensions - 41-3/4"H x 14-7/8"D
Warranty - 10 Years

[bleeth]

If your vacuum source is remote from the table and hosed in you only need hose (ridged or flex) from the vac source to the table and there is no reason for a black box.

[knight_toolworks]

mainly noise reduction is what I am after. I can cut for hours where I don't have much machine noise but the vacuum is noisy. I have a black box I made years ago bu I should like more vacuum but not a lot more noise. I just got a onidea cyclone thats only about 76 decibels. huge difference over my clear view.

[ArtFilmgroup]

I am planning to buy the black box for my 4x8 shopbot, can you please advise me if its good or not for hold down or recommend another vacuum

thanks

[Tim Lucas]

I am planning to buy the black box for my 4x8 shopbot, can you please advise me if its good or not for hold down or recommend another vacuum

thanks

The black box works very well, i run 3 motors in mine and hold almost everything i need to except parts 2" x 3" and i use tabs with the vac on those
Tim

[JuniorLee]

Tim what size mill do you have and what material do you cut using the black box vacuum.
TIA
Jr

[Tim Lucas]

Tim what size mill do you have and what material do you cut using the black box vacuum.
TIA
Jr

I have a 48x96 and cut 1/4" 1/2" 3/4" plywood and hard/soft solid wood

[dlcw]

Tim what size mill do you have and what material do you cut using the black box vacuum.
TIA
Jr

Jr,

I cut 1/4", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4" plywood (at least 750 sheets a year). I use a 1/8" thick piece of MDF (skinned both sides) as a sacrificial board, that the plywood sits on, so I don't cut into my spoil board. I only have to level my board once a month or so. No tool marks whatsoever. I've got a piece of 1" MDO with T-tracks that I use to cut most hardwoods and softwood. The material is clamped to the MDO and the vacuum holds the MDO to the table. I've also used the MDO setup to etch glass and brass with a diamond drag bit.

Since assembling the black box I've not had any problems other than an occasional motor go out. I keep two spare motors on hand. The black box is not under the table so it's easy to change motors when they go. Thousands of hours and I still love it. Only thing, like many people have said, it is loud. Some day I may move it outside and plumb it in to the table.

[JuniorLee]

Don thanks for the input. I was thinking of doing the same, Re: 1" MDO amd T tracks, for the hardwood
Jr

[ArtFilmgroup]

thanks for the info i am really appreciate bought the black box and works great its quitter than the vacuum cubes

33034
33035
33036