Troubleshooting a communication/grounding issue

[aarn]

Greetings Shopbot Community,

I've been lurking for a bit, and absorbing as much as I can on this forum. So, thanks everyone for saving me tons of money in technicians fees and for teaching me so much about these machines. You are great.

I recently picked up a PRS Alpha 48x48 with a 2.2HP HSD. But it keeps stalling out mid-cut. The machine is 7yrs old, but I just upgraded the control board to the most recent and I'm running the most recent SB software also, into a Win7 machine (my old CAD workstation: Dell Precision T3400 8GB Ram, 64-bit, 2.5Ghz quad core...I also have connected a USB keyboard, 10-key, mouse, no other USB peripherals running, or big programs running in the background).

This is my first cut file that I am running on this machine, but I had been running a smaller (24x24") machine for about 5yrs. To be honest, I'm really missing Mach3, and communicating over non-USB. But I'm only just getting started, so I'm optimistic that I will come to love the SB3 software.

Anyway, I'm trying to surface my spoilboard here and the machine keeps stopping about 10 seconds into the cut and giving me the "ShopBot No Longer Being Recognized!" message (I have also attached a screenshot of the message, if that helps).

I tried the cut once, it stalled, like I said, then I re-attached the dust collector ground wire onto the end of one of the 10-32 screws on my z-car (just in case the location of that ground wire was the problem). Then I cut air successfully with and without the dust collector running for about a minute and figured that it was the grounding that was the problem, and that I had fixed it. Went back and tried cutting the file and it timed out after like 10 seconds again.

Then, I disconnected the dust collector hose from the machine, and just held the hose thinking that maybe if the dust collector wasn't even physically attached to the machine, I could just make due, and then figure it out later, but that time the machine only worked for about 5 seconds.

Sorry for writing so much, I just wanted everyone to know that I really tried everything I could think of before I put anything up on this board. I don't want to waste anyone's time.

So, any suggestions about what might need to be fixed to allow me to successfully use my machine would be amazing.

Thanks,

Aaron

[jTr]

I've got lots of experience with missing comm errors, and I'm running a Win7 machine also. Grounding issues will give you the missing comm notice. Did all the things you mention, and seem to have gotten past that one with my machine setup.

What you are describing is exactly what my machine developed upon updating software to SB 3.8 in June. Due to the very message you describe as well as "unexpected output fault", I was advised by tech support to upgrade to 3.8.26. (In November)
So far, I've not had a problem, except the keypad can completely lock up the program now, so I avoid using it as much as possible. (It is noted that this was a significant issue remedied by this version).

While it's still good to review info here and tweak the hardware of your setup, I strongly advise you to contact tech support, as this type of message is indicative of software issues.

Things I've learned here that have made a difference:
- Win7 needs more attention than just shutting off updates. Go to settings, turn off all updates, but look for an "advanced settings" link . This will take you into a long list of power saving settings that your general request will not take care of. Specifically, look for one relating to USB - Win7 has a feature that arbitrarily shuts off USB ports in the interest of saving power.

- Also, check the "action center" flag. Make sure it's not got any issues up - again, with all updates shut off, I've had a slew of warnings creep in with windows frantically trying to update firewall, "windows defender", etc, as it proceeded to crash my software. Never had that issue until I gave in and updated to the latest major release.

Again, it is not enough to go to the general settings in Win7 and tell it to never update, as it runs all kinds of automated background updates, regardless the box you select there.

Hope one of those is all you're dealing with.


jeff

[scottp55]

May sound like a stupid question, but should his DC ground wire be connected to his ZCar? My DC ground never touches the Desktop and stops at a stripped section of hose wire on plexi dust foot.
I thought the idea was to take all DC static Away from the machine.:confused:

[aarn]

Jeff,

Thanks so much for all of the tips. I'm hoping to get down to my studio for a bit today and play with these settings, and if I can't figure it out then I'll be on the phone with tech support tomorrow.

Really appreciate it.

Aaron

[aarn]

May sound like a stupid question, but should his DC ground wire be connected to his ZCar? My DC ground never touches the Desktop and stops at a stripped section of hose wire on plexi dust foot.
I thought the idea was to take all DC static Away from the machine.:confused:

This is a great question. I bought this machine used, and the previous owner had the dust collection ground wire bolted to the Zcar, so that's what I did. Maybe I'll run a ground from the collector end of the DC to the tubing. But even on the last run, I didn't even have the dust collector attached to the system, I was just holding the 4" tube and it died on me.

Does anyone know if there's a simple way to double check DC grounding using a DMM? It is possible that my frame is not grounded properly (but I do have the control box mounted to the frame, so I kind of assumed that the box would have a ground and I wouldn't have to run another).

Thanks!

[jTr]

Aaron,
Rule number one for grounding the machine is to not create any ground loops. All must be "branches" from your breaker box.
More direct: Do not connect the dust collector ground to the machine.

I use a Kent dust skirt system - created a pie-shaped web of copper wire to act as a screen for large debris, which also acts as a static discharge grid . A single line is connected to it, where it travels inside the flex hose and is connected to the metal duct, creating a path back to the dust collector motor, then on to the common ground at the breaker. My mistake was thinking the metal coil integral to the flex hose would do the trick, but it is key to have it inside the hose where particles are in contact and can discharge prior to reaching the metal duct.



jeff

[gerryv]

Aaron,
Rule number one for grounding the machine is to not create any ground loops. All must be "branches" from your breaker box.
More direct: Do not connect the dust collector ground to the machine.
jeff

Nice clear explanation Jeff, thanks a bunch.

[adrianm]

Copper wire through the ducting but no connection to the machine and a copper cable from the frame with both connected into a four foot ground spike which is also the earth for the shop circuit.

I cut many sheets of MDF which is notorious for static and I have no comms problems at all.

[David Iannone]

Also make sure the copper wire going through vacuum pipe is bare. No shielding on it. I had a big role of ground wire the cable guys use at the side of the house to ground their cable service. I just stripped all the shielding off with a knife. It was free though....:D


Dave

[aarn]

Thanks!

So yeah, I tried a bunch of stuff today, and unfortunately none of it worked.
1) I rewired the dust collector ground from the zcar to the motor housing on my Harbor Freight 2HP DC, and checked continuity from one end to the other.
2) Checked (using a DMM) that the frame was grounded to the outlet that the control box is plugged into.
3) Adjusted all of the USB settings to not "save power" (to the best of my ability, screenshots of settings attached).
4) Disabled my USB wireless network adaptor.

I tried running the surfacing routine a handful of times. Unfortunately, I work in a shared space, so I can't risk running the program without dust collection, the MDF dust is just too annoying. The one time that I started the DC late, the program ran longer, which makes me think that it IS a grounding issue, but how can I rule out it being software before I really start to get into grounding this thing?

I'm also a ways away from the breaker panel, so I'm not sure if grounding all the way back to the box is realistic. Since an electrician ran a 220 plug for me and double checked my 110 plug for proper ground, couldn't I just use something on the outlet as the grounding point?


Yes, I have been eyeing and I will be getting a Kent skirt soon, since I already destroyed my SB skirt when my tubing got hung up on one of the machine's legs (I switched the x and y axis to be more familiar in set up, and I needed to hardcode some homing offsets so that the legs didn't get in the way of things, but I didn't know that until I tried running the stock spoilboard surfacing routine).


Thanks again for all of your help. I feel like I'm closing in on the problem. Slowly but surely.

Aaron

[aarn]

Thank you Adrian and David,

I think that my next move is to run a ground wire inside of the ducting.

Aaron

[adrianm]

Another thing that I forgot to mention is the ShopBot supplied USB hub.

They say it's not needed for the latest versions of the software but if I take mine off (tested on two different PC's) I can't run for more than a few minutes before I get the yellow box of death appear.

[MogulTx]

Aaron,

You DEFINITELY need a ground wire INSIDE the DC hose. I connected the spindle side to the metal rod for the DC attachment. The other end if connected to the sheet metal of the DC fan housing. There is a lot of built up static from moving wood dusts (and other materials) through a plastic hose. The charge builds up and can be very difficult on your electronics. Definitely, definitely ground that thoroughly!

And I would go through and make sure that all auxiliary services like windows updates and Dell "Smart Settings" and Antivirus stuff are all turned OFF. All the extra services can interfere with your operation. Especially when it goes to look for a web connection during the middle of a cut. You don't want it even LOOKING for the web, which is why antivirus and windows update services must be turned off.

[aarn]

Ok, first of all, thanks everyone for taking the time to help me troubleshoot this problem.

Yesterday I was able to run through all seven glorious minutes of my surfacing routine, and I think that the demons are gone.

On sunday I did a lot of work disabling the USB power save features (see my previous post for details), and then yesterday I stripped about 25ft of 18Ga solid copper wire and ran it through the dust collector tubing (leaving the spindle end attached only to the inside wall of the tubing, making sure that it was far away from anything that could end up making electrical contact to the machine). This ground wire terminates at the dust collection end of the DC circuit, and is attached to one of the housing screws on the DC motor. I also, and I'm not sure if this is necessary anymore, have a ground "branch" running through the spiral wire core in the 4" DC tubing, which terminates at the same point on the dust collector motor. The most critical part of this grounding procedure was to run a wire from the DC chassis to the overhead conduit and attach it with a hose clamp, before I did that (with everything else in place) the comm error was still present. I would have really liked to have run real ground branches from a spike or something but it wasn't an option.

Since I don't have convenient access to the circuit breaker, I decided to use the conduit as a ground. Since it is a commercial building, the conduit seems to be pretty well grounded. I also ran another ground line with 18Ga copper from the underside of the machine table to a bolt on the control box (the frame), and then ran a line from there to a nearby conduit line, and attached it again with a hoseclamp.

I also, and I don't know if anyone else would find this useful, have been using one of my favorite desktop applications called Jing, to screen capture and annotate any software/computer settings that I have made. These files exist for me on a NAS that I use to move files from my CAD workstation to the CNC control machine...so if anything happens to my control computer, I don't need to go through all of the effort to try to figure out what my settings were, especially since I have made some important changes to how the machine is set up (like swapping X and Y, moving zero so that DC doesn't run into the legs of the machine, etc.). I have attached some examples of this technique. If anyone is interested. It is something that I had wished that I had done in the past when setting up machines.

So, yeah, thanks again everyone.

Aaron

[adrianm]

Once you've got everything setup and working the way you want SB software wise you should save the settings to a file using the US command and store it somewhere safe.

[scottp55]

Glad you got it straightened out Aaron :)
DO make a Restore point NOW and a complete backup.
Maybe start an engineers log book and start writing down EVERY change you make. Comes in really handy months down the road, especially if your memory isn't perfect:) I haven't modified my setup much so still fairly easy for me to go back to factory settings and firmware,BUT sounds like you should save your settings(others can help here), so if somebody else in the Sharespace fries the electrical, you can get going again fairly simply.
Congrats!
scott

[scottp55]

Oops, Adrian stomped on me with better info sooner:( (As usual) :)

[aarn]

Thanks!! Yes, once I get everything dialed I'll learn about the US command and back everything up.