LH Vacuum motors on side?

[Mark Owen]

Is there any reason I can not run the LH vacuum motors on their side?

I built Gary's BB but am not happy with my workmanship, so I need to rebuild it. That got me thinking that Gary's main thought was to separate the exhaust from the cooling to lessen heat and increase motor longevity. If I were to turn the motors on their side, the exhaust can go straight out the bottom, vacuum out the top and the cooling on the other side. A simple rectangular box with one board down the inside holding the motors is all it would require.

Regards
Mark

[Mark Owen]

Never mind. Ward from LH responded that I could with no issues.

Regards
Mark

[barrowj]

Mark,

Please let me know how this turns out, I have been on the fence on the vacuum needs since I do very little sheet goods. I have been watching the different posts about the LH motors, cost seems very reasonable and the box seems easy enough.

Joe

[gerryv]

Hi Mark,
I'd be interested in your progress as we're just starting to design and build a modular vacuum table and will need to decide on a vac source. I come through Pickering occasionally.

[Mark Owen]

Joe, Gerald,
Over the last year I have used everything to hold material down. I started using two sided tape. That got expensive and time consuming. I have screwed material down but after 3 or 4 or solid carbide bits got destroyed I knuckled under and bought the Raptor nail gun. This gun is awesome and works fine but you still need to use tabs.
Based on everything posted on this forum, best bang for the buck hands down is Gary's BB design. I did look for a commercial blower but ended up buying the vacuum motors from LH. Total cost was US$579. This translates into almost C$800 after exchange rate, CC exchange fee, CDN taxes. Not cheap but still cheaper than any other option.
For my Canadian brothers, we cannot get Trupan in Canada but Superlite MDF from New Zealand is available via Windsor Plywood and a place in Toronto that I cannot find right now. It is made with Radiata Pine, the same as Trupan. And at 32lbs is the same density.
My error when building the box was to take the files provided and just cut them before understanding them. They require two sided machining (flip op). Plus when I tried to lift it off the table after installing the motors and electrics, I dropped it maybe 6 inches. However, that was enough to break the PB.
I might just redo the files again. It would be the quickest way to be up and running. I have to question my choice to alter a proven design. Do I want to spend my time building a vacuum box or making things that might actually produce some revenue?

Regards
Mark

[donek]

this is our mount
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-6aMES3Hj9YE/VK3RkOySD_I/AAAAAAAAAqE/7SDD7tr9iW0/w1454-h818-no/2015-01-07.jpg

It slides out for easily removing debris. this is occasionally necessary as we use a table setup with holes in it.

[David Iannone]

Sean,
That is a nice looking rig.

But I don't understand it. Can you post a few more pic angles?

Like the classic SB machine.

Dave

[barrowj]

Sean,

Your design looks interesting, please post more pics of your setup. I really would like to keep it simple when I make mine and since I mostly do hardwood glue ups, the size would usually take less than 1/4 to 1/2 of a table so I will most likely only need 2 blowers and section my table x6 and only use 2 or 3 sections at a time. From your pic, it looks like you have it mounted on the back edge of the bot but that could be just my eyes deceiving me.

Joe

[Ajcoholic]

Don't be too concerned with light weight mdf. I've bern using a dense cabinet grade of mdf and it works just fine. Just skim 30 thou off each face before you start.

[Mark Owen]

Andrew,
If I had your blower, I wouldn't worry about it either. :) However, I am building the frugal's man's version where every little bit helps.
For you, Windsor Plywood is in Thunder Bay, the shipping wouldn't be too outrageous. You probably know some local Truckers that do that run and could pick some up for you.

Regards
Mark

[Brady Watson]

It's REAL simple kids...Here are some pics in the thread that started it all:

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=545

What you don't see is the vacuum motor inlet, which is nothing more than a 1.5-2" hole in the cylindrical portion of the vacuum unit. That's where the air is being drawn from. The exhaust (air is being blown out like the back side of your shopvac) is shown as part of the metal 'turbine' scroll.

These units are really simple. It's just an electric motor with brushes, an impeller like any other pump that sits in a housing with an intake and exhaust port. Just like your car/truck's water pump...real simple. The business end is the intake/suction side. You just need to find a way to adapt that to your vacuum plumbing manifold. That's pretty much it.

Now, any other features seen in other adaptations of this open source project are icing on the cake. They are either to make switching multiple units on more efficient or have enclosures design to aide in noise abatement.

The idea behind this open source project is to get Fein performance @ shoestring prices. Last I checked a Fein Turbo III was like $500+. They have sound deadening which is nice, but you have to ask if that is worth the $400 cost differential, since the LH motors are around $100 or so. Plus, the LH motors pull harder than the Fein (typically 8-10 Hg" with cooling hole vs Fein @ max 7.3 Hg" advertised) - so you get a better performance to cost ratio with the LH - provided you are up to doing a little work....or pay a few bucks on the one that Gary sells, which are very nicely done, by the way.

-B

[barrowj]

Brady,

Was checking yesterday for the Fein Turbo III and they don't show it on the Fein site anymore and didn't even see one on eBay. After reading a number of your threads and the Brady Vac II write up you did, I gave that some thought. I am now looking at the Lighthouse motor and making my own box as I probably only need two for my simple needs. I don't do sheet goods very often and may even do a hold down similar to your setup as a portable one. I could create a number of different sizes and configurations that way to accommodate my most often used layouts.

Joe

[David Iannone]

Good Timing Brady, I was digging through the archives a few days ago and found that thread. Somehow I have never seen that one. Just when I thought I had searched every which way, search again and you never know what you can learn.

I am in process of table rebuild, and have read enough here over the years about vacuum hold down. I got to give it a shot I guess.....:D
I've been a little credit card happy lately so what the heck is two lighthouse motors and some wood? This is the fun part now.

About to surface my new table surface that has been drying last two days. It was freakin 13 degrees in the bot room this morning. I got the kerosene heater warming it up. I used to live in DE. Now I am in GA. Its cold this morning.

[barrowj]

David,

I have been on the fence also on the vacuum hold down but will be giving it a go soon. I am going to order 2 Lighthouse motors this week and then giving real consideration on the table layout.

I have all of the wood for the table and the vac box just need the motors. I feel your pain on the cold, it is 5deg here in Cleveland TN (Just north of Chattanooga).

Let me know which way you end up going on your vac table and box please, still reading all of the threads I can on it.

Joe

[David Iannone]

Joe,
You got a deal. I'm gonna get 2 motors. I have to figure out the electrical (which means talk to the electrician I know) But I think I have enough room in the breaker box?

Maybe the 220v motors. As I read they seem to be more efficient. My plan is to make a simple box for them, and use two different BradyVac drop on boards. One 2'x4' and the other 4'x4' and then see how it goes from there.

I am just finishing up my new table base with Ttrack buried in it.

I will post my progress once I pull it together. I will say about two weeks from now should give me enough time.

[Ajcoholic]

Andrew,
If I had your blower, I wouldn't worry about it either. :) However, I am building the frugal's man's version where every little bit helps.
For you, Windsor Plywood is in Thunder Bay, the shipping wouldn't be too outrageous. You probably know some local Truckers that do that run and could pick some up for you.

Regards
Mark

Mark - you should try some regular Canadian made mdf and just see how it is. I spoke to enough guys using it to put me off trying to source the lightweight stuff. One thing that kept me from pursuing the vacuum was the fact we didn't have access to the Trupan here. Even the guy who sells the ready to use black box told me regular mdf was fine - when I was inquiring about that system last year in SC.

It would be neat to do a comparison though.

[barrowj]

David,

I ordered my motors from Ward today, now I will review the Vac threads again to determine the box I will make since I am only going with 2 motors. I will keep this thread updated.

Joe

[Tim Lucas]

David,

I ordered my motors from Ward today, now I will review the Vac threads again to determine the box I will make since I am only going with 2 motors. I will keep this thread updated.

Joe

Joe, I just installed 2 of the 220v motors but built the 4 motor box and just put a temporary cover over the 2 extra holes so I can add 2 more motors later. they work good!:D I split my table in 5 sections. I am sure you are going to love it when you are done. and I am using Home Depot MDF 3/4" my son could not believe the holding power on a 2' square piece of plywood
Tim

[gerryv]

Hi Tim, which part number if you don't mind me asking. You guys have me pumped up now!

[donek]

Sean,
That is a nice looking rig.

But I don't understand it. Can you post a few more pic angles?

Like the classic SB machine.

Dave


Sean,

Your design looks interesting, please post more pics of your setup. I really would like to keep it simple when I make mine and since I mostly do hardwood glue ups, the size would usually take less than 1/4 to 1/2 of a table so I will most likely only need 2 blowers and section my table x6 and only use 2 or 3 sections at a time. From your pic, it looks like you have it mounted on the back edge of the bot but that could be just my eyes deceiving me.

Joe

It's really simple. There's a square board with a hole the size of the vacuum outer diameter and 3 holes for bolts around the perimeter. This board stands off from the board behind it so it can mate up against a same size board with a hole into the vacuum box. Turn on the motor and the vacuum sucks itself against the other board. There is a frame to loosely support the setup and allow it to slide upwards and off for cleanout and any other purpose.

[Tim Lucas]

Hi Tim, which part number if you don't mind me asking. You guys have me pumped up now!
Yes sir, the LH-7123's :D

[barrowj]

Yes sir, the LH-7123's :D


And Ward said that all the LH-7123 are the same regardless of the Voltage info (220, 230, 240), so just order the LH-7123 and also remember to tell him you want the gaskets too. You need them so you don't over tighten the bolts holding them on.

[jTr]

Not to be contrary to other's input regarding MDF, but it should be stressed the region you're in can dramatically affect the performance of regular MDF's ability to function as a vacuum bleeder.
Two years ago when I bought my new machine, another cabinet shop was coincidentally having a terrible time with hold down on a much more expensive machine that utilized a very powerful regenerative blower. They began experiencing parts being projected off the table, where the same supplier's MDF had previously performed just fine. The general conclusion was the MDF available in our region (Midwestern/Mountain plains of USA) had undergone a change of composition in the glue, which dramatically reduced the air flow properties required for use in vacuum hold down applications. We were unable to source this even through Denver, much to our surprise - they had never heard of ultralight before:confused:.
Fortunately, we got together and shipped in Trupan from Minnesota. Unfortunately, my share was a $350 hit with freight fees for 4 sheets, one of which the trucking company naturally destroyed. When I run out, I hope availability has changed.

Just wanted to make it clear, though others have had good luck, it can still be a real problem depending on available resources.

Jeff

[GeneMpls]

Hi Jeff- where did you buy it in Mn? I have been looking with no luck
so far. Thanks Gene

[hh_woodworking]

If you have to have it shipped here is a good company that stocks Trupan in Missouri http://schallerhardwood.com/ They have several branch locations also

[barrowj]

Anyone have advise as to the size of pipe for the vacuum system, i will be going with a 6 zone, 2 lighthouse vacuum pumps and the pvc valves. If I remember the posts, it looked like 2" pipe? and we a flanged adapter for each zone? Is it 3" rubber to 2" PVC? I also remember people discussing an air filter (like a car or canister filter)? Anything else i'm missing?

This will be my first and I will be building a black box scheme and seal off the 2 empty chambers for now until I see a need for them.

Thanks for any help, I hope to get my pipe this weekend and start the plumbing and cutting the box. The motors should be here this next week, Ward shipped them from TN, my state so shouldn't take long.

Joe

[Brady Watson]

2" inlet is fine. It's enough to support 800+ CFM & 530+ hp if you need an automotive yardstick :D

3" is often used for the manifold where there are 3x3x2" Tees for the ball valves on a SB factory setup. This makes it easy to setup since the 3" stuff nests nicely into the lower 3x5" crossmembers. It is also good if you have your pump in a mechanical room away from the machine to maintain airflow.

If you haven't fooled around with vacuum as a hold down technique, you owe it to yourself to at least experiment with what you have on hand. A regular shopvac is capable of wowing you with even simple demonstration setups. With the addition of gasketing, lower CFM, high suction pumps like those used for A/C work or venturi pumps, will knock your socks off & gets your wheels turning...

Go play. Fail. Tweak. Observe. Learn. Then reap the rewards of your work.

-B

[gundog]

I don't use a box on my setup here is an old post I made about it using the lighthouse vacuum motors. I also used knife valves and ABS sewer pipe. I have built 3 of these tables now and it works great I also don't use a filter and have no problems I can't imagine a better filter than pulling air through a spoilboard. I could see a filter if you are pulling through a table with holes going through but that is not how I build my tables. I got all of the info I needed off here from Brady and Gary.

Mike

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19277&highlight=vacuum

[gerryv]

Very interesting approach Michael. Thanks very much.

[gundog]

I did change my design slightly where the branch valves are located on the table in my post I put the valves at the ports going into the table. On my current setup I put all the valves at one end of the table where there is some sheet metal and I did not need to extend the handles so they operate a little easier. My vacuum gauge is also mounted in that sheet metal and I added a bleeder valve (3/8" ball valve) and I use it most of the time to keep the system from pulling too much vacuum. The lighthouse motors need to have some air flow or they burn up. I learned this lesson already. I machine plastic and get very little leakage so I run a 54" x 96" 5 zone table with one motor. I alternate motors so one motor only runs for one sheet then I run the other one it keeps them worn the same amount and allows them to cool. Most of my sheets take between 2 and 5 hours to cut.

Mike

[gundog]

I will add I don't cut the parts through I leave an onion skin and trim the parts out with a laminate trimmer because many of my parts are too small and would not be held in place by vacuum. If I cut through making larger parts I would use both motors. I do make some tool paths that go through like drilled holes and some profile slots.

Mike

[gerryv]

Thanks Michael,

Most of what we'll be cutting is a bit challenging for vac hold down as I understand it. Mostly 6' to 8' L x 6" to 10" W x 1" to 6/4 thick hardwood planks. We'll be using a Byrd head planer to get the bottom (hopefully smooth enough for vac. It would be nice to be able to buy very straight lumber and skip jointing but that's an open question.

For this reason I'm thinking my priority will be on getting higher vac numbers rather than CFM. Your design suggests to me that I might be able to put together a very simple ABS or Schedule 80PVC tube and fittings based setup using two lighthouse motors in series. I'd mount copper heat sinks onto the motors as much as possible and maybe a small fan. With my bleeder board typically being nearly fully covered by the plank, I don't think I need to worry about high CFM as much or, for that matter, large diameter tubing.

My vac table for this operation will be a very narrow one at about 1' wide by 8' long and mounted to an 8' powerstick.

[gundog]

I have held plywood and chip board for an ocasional project around the place and never had a problem holding parts but 6" x 10" to me maybe iffy maybe if you use tabs you will be OK. You could also use a dedicated jig made to fit the parts where they sit in a pocket then I am sure it would work well Brady is good about calculating your vacuum pressure he will probably weigh in.

I just know what has worked for me. That size part with plastic would not hold well if cut through with very aggressive profile cutting. Drilling would be fine. You may also machine down to an onion skin then do a final pass only cutting .020"-.050".
Mike

[Ajcoholic]

Don't discount higher cfm/lower vacuum for holding solid wood. I have cut some pretty small (10"x30") hardwood PCs just fine on my table. The regen blower I use is approx 400cfm but pretty low vacuum relative to a lot of other systems. Supposedly four lighthouse motors should be about the same cfm and maybe even higher vac.

The material must be tight against the spoilboard so jointing it is necessary.

[Ger21]

I cut a lot of hardwood on a Morbidelli with two 10HP Becker pumps.
As Andrew says, you MUST run hardwood on a jointer if you want to hold it down with vacuum. The slightest amount of twist or bow will keep it from being pulled down. The thicker and stiffer the wood, the more critical this is.

[gerryv]

Thanks kindly, jointing it will be then as there's a lot to be said about doing it right the first time.

Assuming that I have a repeating need for 8'x8" planks for example and, even though they're jointed, the smallest amount of twist or bow will be a problem as Gerry G. said;

would there maybe be a benefit in having a thin, pre-cut rim gasket laid between the plank and the table just-in-case? AllStar Adhesives could likely make a suggestion if yes.

[Ajcoholic]

Thanks kindly, jointing it will be then as there's a lot to be said about doing it right the first time.

Assuming that I have a repeating need for 8'x8" planks for example and, even though they're jointed, the smallest amount of twist or bow will be a problem as Gerry G. said;

would there maybe be a benefit in having a thin, pre-cut rim gasket laid between the plank and the table just-in-case? AllStar Adhesives could likely make a suggestion if yes.

Do you have a large enough jointer to handle the widths of lumber you want to process? I'd joint the material right before going to the CNC - as even several hours afterwards the plank can develop some bow/twist/cup etc, especially in the heated winter months.

Buying skip-dressed lumber is a great way to see the quality of the wood, vs rough sawn, but I wouldnt rely on it to be truly flat. I re-joint everything.

Back in my college days we made dedicated vacuum fixtures for everything. We just used MDF or particle board, cut channels in it to accept an O or U shaped neoprene gasket (which you could leave as proud of the surface as you wanted, to the surface of the fixture) and then lacquered it to seal it. Set it on the vac table and fasten it down. Then place your lumber on it. Iif you are machining through the material, you can gasket off specific zoned shapes. Works well if you are cutting the same thing over and over, and the shape of the individual parts is both large enough to give decent hold down pressure and also not too complex in outline.

[gerryv]

Andrew,
I think you may have just nailed it for me! Thanks very much.
-Gerry

Off Topic: Sounds like you got one of the few GOOD colleges that take trades related training seriously. I got hired out of private industry to develop and administer custom/corporate training programs including skills and trades. Not a good move as I soon discovered that most of the colleges were run by wannabe university presidents who had no time for anything that made dust, noise or something that needed to be physically cleaned up and funnelled as much of that "dirty money" funding into their general fund. Remember when these colleges were conceived and built as "technical institutes"? After two years I went back to the private side.

[Ajcoholic]

Andrew,
I think you may have just nailed it for me! Thanks very much.
-Gerry

Off Topic: Sounds like you got one of the few GOOD colleges that take trades related training seriously. I got hired out of private industry to develop and administer custom/corporate training programs including skills and trades. Not a good move as I soon discovered that most of the colleges were run by wannabe university presidents who had no time for anything that made dust, noise or something that needed to be physically cleaned up and funnelled as much of that "dirty money" funding into their general fund. Remember when these colleges were conceived and built as "technical institutes"? After two years I went back to the private side.

Yes, Conestoga college and the woodworking centre of Ontario are ranked as in the top 4 woodworking centres in North America. Prob the best decision I made was to take three years and go there vs just working for my fathers business.

When you're 20 yrs old three years can seem like a long time, especially when I had a guaranteed job lined up. But when I look back it was worth 10x the cost and effort with what I got out of it. Unfortunately CNC was just in the initial stages in the woodworking industry but it was enough to give me a taste. :)

[David Iannone]

Just ordered my two LH-7123 motors online and the gaskets......:D

Dave

[David Iannone]

David,

I ordered my motors from Ward today, now I will review the Vac threads again to determine the box I will make since I am only going with 2 motors. I will keep this thread updated.

Joe


I will update my progress also.

Dave

[barrowj]

Dave,

I received my motors last night, now i just have to get working on the box and plumbing. Still researching the best method to plumb for me and go get the materials. I should be able to make a good start this weekend. Not going to be in a big hurry as I want it to be right and not rush into a mistake.

Joe

[Ken Sully]

The one thing I have not seen on this thread is the amount of heat produced by the LH setup. I think the noise is ok??

if I were to locate the vacuum remote about 25 feet away would this impact performance?

[jTr]

Ken,
Per Gary's original documentation on the black box, you should expect 110 to 115 degrees average. Mine seems to creep up to 114 and hang right there. Exceptions would be on hot summer days, material of lower porosity, protracted production runs, etc.
Sometimes I'll let it vent w/o material on table if it starts hitting 125+ to reduce temp. Have seen it hit ~130 without any apparent issues. It has been operating this way for two years, about 85% of the time just on the two primary motors.

(May be a good time for me to open it up and "rotate" the motor positions to even out wear. No, You cannot alternate switching primary / secondaries with power switches, as the secondaries alone will bleed vac through the primary motor chamber.:()

How to monitor temperature:
Outdoor thermometer. I hot glued the remote temp sensor to the cast housing of one of the primary motors. (If you're obsessive, feel free to dedicate one to each motor.)

jeff

[barrowj]

Jeff,

Is there any reason why they can't be vented outside using a duct pipe?

Joe

[gerryv]

I'm in the process of trying to design a simple Lighthouse system for use on my Buddy power-sticks and went to the Fein website out of interest. Points that jumped out right away:
1. They have new models ALL with exactly the same capabilities, whether the Turbo 1, 2 or 3
2. Slightly lower power consumption @ 1100 watts but much higher flow @ 151 CFM.
3. Tiny improvement in suction over the previous Turbo 3 @ 98.4" of static water lift (that's 7.2" of mercury)
4. $299 USD for the Turbo 1 at Rocker right now, I think with free shipping in the US. Again, same spec's as the Turbo 3 but for tank size I believe.
66dB (A) noise level - Wow, that's good!

That all sounds really good for someone not cutting very small parts (or heavy lumber like me) with one POSSIBLE fly in the ointment.

They don't clearly point out whether it is a dual fan and/or bypass system. I called Fein in Canada and found out that they are now using a German manufacturer rather than the previous Italian one so a brand new unit. With regard to the question of dual fan and/or bypass, the fellow I spoke to did not seem aware of how these are used for our purpose and I only got a somewhat hesitant and indirect assurance that it has two fans so should be okay.

It might be worth a call to the Fein USA tech people to see for sure if the new Turbo 1 might work just FEIN for you. Hope this helps anyone on the fence.

[jTr]

Is there any reason why they can't be vented outside using a duct pipe?

Joe,
Consider:
Theoretically, the vacuum being pulled through the motor is the same as ambient room temperature. The heat is being generated by the motor itself, which has an integral cooling fan within the plastic housing cover. There is a pathway designed into the "black box" structure for management of that air flow separate of the vacuum path. I believe strapping a dozen feet of tubing to the outlet side would overtax it's ability to move the cooling air. Considering outside air pressure/temp variables and wind pressure fluctuation, one can quickly surmise the results would be erratic cooling at best, catastrophic at worst.

Okay, anything's possible given enough ambition (another fan within the exhaust manifold to assure positive air flow and cooling...), but I think this is going further down the rabbit hole than I care to go.

When I grow up and build my dream shop, DC, Compressor and vac sources will likely have an isolated space within the building to help address all these concerns. Meanwhile, I live with the elevated SPL's with the aid of hearing protection, which I'll always employ when using shop machinery.



jeff

[gerryv]

I'm looking at putting a heat sink on each of the four sides of the stator - good, bad or waste of money?

[barrowj]

Dave/Gerald,

Have you cut your box yet? I was working to change the "Vac box" file I downloaded from a previous thread and there are a few issues that I was trying to work out. The biggest issue was the 2 inner sides that need to be cut on both sides and since I don't have a vac system yet, also needing to add tabs. Just thought we could save some time if we shared what we have to put into one good final cut final and share it with the forum.

Joe

[David Iannone]

Dave/Gerald,

Have you cut your box yet? I was working to change the "Vac box" file I downloaded from a previous thread and there are a few issues that I was trying to work out. The biggest issue was the 2 inner sides that need to be cut on both sides and since I don't have a vac system yet, also needing to add tabs. Just thought we could save some time if we shared what we have to put into one good final cut final and share it with the forum.

Joe

I never made it to Home Depot the other day, got sidetracked with some jobs that have came in. I am gonna try to get there tomorrow. Also hoping my vac motors will be in tomorrow. I have the electrician coming next week when I let him know I'm ready so I need to pull it together this week/weekend for sure. I have been laying the dxf files others supplied here out on a sheet. I was thinking to cut the other side I would just flip it over and clamp where the machine wouldn't hit clamps.

Dave

[Tim Lucas]

Dave/Gerald,

Have you cut your box yet? I was working to change the "Vac box" file I downloaded from a previous thread and there are a few issues that I was trying to work out. The biggest issue was the 2 inner sides that need to be cut on both sides and since I don't have a vac system yet, also needing to add tabs. Just thought we could save some time if we shared what we have to put into one good final cut final and share it with the forum.

Joe

Hi Joe,
when I cut my box without vacuum I held it in place with screws.
Tim

[barrowj]

Dave,

I understand, my day job has kept me busy these last 2 weeks so I haven't gone out to the shop that much. I already ran an extra circuit when I bought my shopbot so I'm good to go there. Just need to take the time to clean up the file and and tabs so I can cut the box. I have just decided to take the time to redraw it for 2 motors instead of 4, really don't think I need to worry about 4. I will take pics and post here when I do get it all done.

Joe

[gerryv]

Hi Joe, I've not finalized my design yet. I'm wrestling with about three right now.

[gerryv]

Oops hit the send key by mistake and the 10 minute cutoff crept up on me too quickly. Here's the rest.

Hi Joe,
I've not finalized my design yet. I'm wrestling with about three right now.
1. Because I have a Buddy, mine need to work with three power sticks so I'm leaning toward actually mounting a single vac pump directly onto the end of the power stick such that it can be locked on or removed in a jiffy and tapped directly into torsion box modules on any of the power sticks. This way, I'd have no plumbing, no box and only have an electric cord to deal with rather than having a vac hose dragging back and forth. Trouble is I would prefer 2 in series so more complicated as it will take some plumbing and, therefore an enclosure.
2. My next option is mounting series based unit in an existing, sound insulated outbuilding with my cyclone. I may not even need a box in that case - just go with a version of Brady's earliest "PVC" design.
3. Go more tried and true conventional box with a long hose to quick-connects to the powersticks.

I'll certainly post what I'm up to but just back in from hospital after putting my back out and they've told me to expect to accomplish little physically for 2-3 weeks. Lot's of time to plan and share what info I can!

[David Iannone]

Ok, Here is a link to the two sheets I just finished toolpathing. Going to Depot tomorrow on my way in to the shop. My 2 Vac Motors came in late today.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qc7rbr0pb3f2jnm/Open%20Source%20Vac%20Box.zip?dl=0

Thank you to Gary Campbell and Daren LaBranche for making these files available on the forum. And thank you to everyone else helping us along the way also.

Dave

P.S. There files are from a shared folder in my Dropbox. I will prob delete this shared folder after a while. If this link becomes unavailable and anyone wants to use it in the futre, just message me I would be glad to send it.

[barrowj]

Dave,

Thanks, really a great help. My day job has kept me so tied up lately with all of the outages we've had that I just haven't had time to go to the shop. Only question I have is I don't see the toolpath for side b of the 2 boards to be machined on both sides? Not that I can't create them, just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something as I checked for a separate layer too.

Joe

[Mark Owen]

Here are the Flip-Op's files that I used.
I did enlarge the exhaust holes to be more oval shaped to allow room for the flex connector to attach. 1.5" connectors from HD.
Box is built, doing electrics now. I will post some pictures when complete.
Just remove the .pdf and check everything before running. No warranty is expressed or implied.

Regards
Mark

[barrowj]

Mark,

They look great, I like the exhaust holes. Now I have everything I need to cut the box this weekend, just have to goto HD and start getting my pipe and connectors. Electric was run I rewired my shop for the ShopBot so I should be finished by the end of next week. That is if my day job is quiet next week.

Joe

[David Iannone]

Dave,

Thanks, really a great help. My day job has kept me so tied up lately with all of the outages we've had that I just haven't had time to go to the shop. Only question I have is I don't see the toolpath for side b of the 2 boards to be machined on both sides? Not that I can't create them, just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something as I checked for a separate layer too.

Joe

I'm not sure what happened with that either. It still will preview when you preview the cut. I am just checking over my cut files again now before I start cutting. I just hurried in and out of Depot today, only got two sheets and rolled. Will have to go back for all the other hardware, pvc and filter. I think I am gonna try to make a airfilter like John Coryat made. They look nice.

Dave

[David Iannone]

Ok, Here is a link to the two sheets I just finished toolpathing. Going to Depot tomorrow on my way in to the shop. My 2 Vac Motors came in late today.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qc7rbr0pb3f2jnm/Open%20Source%20Vac%20Box.zip?dl=0

Thank you to Gary Campbell and Daren LaBranche for making these files available on the forum. And thank you to everyone else helping us along the way also.

Dave

P.S. There files are from a shared folder in my Dropbox. I will prob delete this shared folder after a while. If this link becomes unavailable and anyone wants to use it in the futre, just message me I would be glad to send it.


I just found errors in my toolpaths so I deleted the file in my dropbox since I cant edit my post and remove it. Guess I should have waited to the end after my mistakes are done.....:D
I will take pics along the way and post them when done.

[barrowj]

Finally started putting my Black Box Vac together, made several changes. I changed it to a 2 motor setup and adjusted the files accordingly but ran into several minor issues. The motor holes (mounting, vac and exhaust) didn't line up correctly so I adjusted them manually and plugged any holes that were incorrect. Everything else lined up correctly. I will finish closing it up later today but the initial power on were great and almost pulled my glove off of my hand but was watching out for that. I attached my design file and some pics of the system. I have all of the PVC to put it together with the exception of the gate valves and will be ordering 4 "Valterra 2201X PVC Unibody Gate Valve, Silver, 2" Slip w/ Gate Keeper " today from Amazon, decent price with "Prime". Question: What wood is recommended for the Grid?

Joe

http://www.joebarrow.com/download/vac1.jpg
http://www.joebarrow.com/download/vac2.jpg
http://www.joebarrow.com/download/vac3.jpg
http://www.joebarrow.com/download/vac4.jpg

[barrowj]

Last 2 pics

http://www.joebarrow.com/download/vac5.jpg
http://www.joebarrow.com/download/vac6.jpg

[barrowj]

And here is my cut file, if you recommend any changes please let me know as I may want to make a new one in the future. Side one does include a layer for the flip side for the 2 sides but I created a different cut file for those as I actually flipped the sheet of plywood after cutting side 2 to cut all of side one. Hope it's not confusing.

Thanks,

Joe

http://www.joebarrow.com/download/Black%20Box%20Vac%20Side%201.crv
http://www.joebarrow.com/download/Black%20Box%20Vac%20Side%202%20Pocket.crv

[bleeth]

Most use regular mdf for the plenum and seal it after cutting. A couple coats of shellac works fine for sealing and doesn't stink like poly's! Since the plenum sits on top of the table base, which is usually plywood, the bottom doesn't need to be sealed.

Your rig is looking fine-good job!

[Doug Hawkins]

Here is my vac box design works very well I did an 8 zone table.

[barrowj]

Doug,

Good design, I had given thoughts to an 8 zone table but wasn't sure 2 motors would handle it if all were open, was wondering about the possibility of vacuum loss due to the extra areas. Would you mind sharing your cut file for the plenum? Now that I have the box built and it runs great I will focus on finishing obtaining the knife valves and running the pipe. I will probably spend this next weekend on redoing my table base, plenum board and bleeder board. Since this is a hobby machine until I retire in a few years I really want it running as good as I can with all of the gadgets I can afford until then. Hopefully I will start looking for more projects and jobs by spring.

Joe

[David Iannone]

Joe,
Looking good. I just put a coat of primer on mine last night. Going to paint it SB Blue tonight. The electrician is coming later this week, so I havent been able to power it up just to hear it scream....:D

I have think I am going to break my whole table up into zones in between my ttrack. So, next up is to get plumbing, plenum, bleeder all in order by end of this week, I hope. Oh yeah, almost forgot I got to put a filter on it too.

I am just putting a new control computer in place today finally, so I am hoping the gremlins go away now.

I have never done any pocketing of letters in Aspire. So I think I am gonna cut the SB logo out of 1/2" PVC, then pocket out the one side of box that will show and glue in the letters. (I only have my box screwed together. No glue yet until I get the whole system tested and working.)

Dave

[Plyoboxwarehouse]

looks pretty sweet guys! This will be high on my list of priorities right after I take delivery of my new PRS alpha. I downloaded the VCP files last night and have it ready to go once I get my new toy. I look forward to hearing about these once they are put into service. Thanks! Rob

[Mark Owen]

Here is mine all hooked up and working. Sealed the vacuum section of the case with silicone prior to assembly. No flanges on the plumbing, I used silicone again and a pressure fit right into the plenum. I also switched between ABS and PVC for the plumbing as I had to make use on what I could get from HD and Lowes. I still need to clean up the electric cable routing but otherwise, she is done.
I am pulling -9hg with only two motors on. -10hg with 4 motors, without a bleed valve installed. I don't want to lose vacuum through a permanent breather so I will open a ball valve in an area I am not using or leave some spoil board uncovered to let it breathe.

Spoilboard is 5/8" mdf, sealed with HVAC silver tape on parts and then edge banded the rest. Glued down with TB, spread with a roller. fyi -It takes a lot of TB to spread with a roller quickly. I went through a two bottles. and it was still a little thin. Next time I will ensure I have a gallon on hand to ensure good coverage.

Gerry, I ended up using 5/8" mdf from HD. York Warehousing in Toronto is a logistics company only. Next time I go to the States, I will buy a sheet of Trupan.

Any questions let me know.
Regards
Mark

[gerryv]

Looking really good Mark. I may have a lead on some Trupan in the Toronto area info courtesy of another Shopbotter. I'll let you know if it pans out.

Meantime I'm working on the design of a two pump series unit that would be mounted directly onto the top/end of my powersticks so that I don't have to worry about dragging a spiral vac. hose back and forth as the power stick moves.

[David Iannone]

Mark,
Great job, looks good.

Rob,
Welcome and congrats on the new machine. You are about to be having some fun.

I got most of the stuff to finish with today. I will probably tell the electrician Monday to give me the rest of week / weekend to get it all done. The attached pic of plenum is what I am thinking about, planning to cut it tomorrow. The blue it where my ttrack already is attached to table base MDO.

Dave

[bobmagnuson]

Mark, with the motors mounted on their sides, did that change the height of the box at all??

I'm very limited on height (17"), but can go crazy with width and length. But I'm having a problem laying out out the pathways for intake and exhaust in order to cut down on the screaming.

[David Iannone]

Getting close. The electrician just got me hooked up with power........:D
I am finishing gluing PVC and bleeder boards today. Coming in this weekend to make filter box and put finishing touches on. I am gonna tee in the Gast pump so when I am doing engraving in rowmark I think I will be able to turn on Gast pump and turn off big vacumms. I never cut through the rowmark, and will have all other area in the small zone sealed. I made a small 12x12 zone for just smaller engraving.

Thanks Brady for ova the hump article.

Dave

[Mark Owen]

Mark, with the motors mounted on their sides, did that change the height of the box at all??

I'm very limited on height (17"), but can go crazy with width and length. But I'm having a problem laying out out the pathways for intake and exhaust in order to cut down on the screaming.

Bob, I stuck with the Black Box original configuration and didn't turn them on their side. If you look at the hurricane boxes they have the gate valves coming out of the top of the box. I figured they were able to do this via a sideways motor. However, quickest and easiest route is to follow those that have gone before. That is why I stuck with BB version.
As for noise it is 89db with two and 90-91db with four motors on. The same as my DC. Hearing protection is a must.
for sheet goods this is awesome. Solid wood still requires Raptor nails or screws to hold it secure.

Regards
Mark

[gerryv]

"... for sheet goods this is awesome. Solid wood still requires Raptor nails or screws to hold it secure."

Thanks much Mark; you just answered a critical question for me :-) Do you think two in series would make it possible to go without the raptor nails? I'm wondering if I should go ahead and get one of their Omer nail guns. With the exchange rate being so bad right now I'm trying to not go overboard. That's assuming you're running only parallel - one per zone.

[Mark Owen]

Gerald,
You can hold solid wood but only if it comes directly off of the planer or drum sander. If the finished wood has has sat for any length of time slight differences will allow vacuum to escape.
A couple of options I just read from yellow was to use screwed down blocks for sideways movement or an mdf board with T tracks. The vacuum would hold the mdf board down whilst the T track holds the material.
I hear you on the exchange rate. 20% more since last fall. It hurts and has stopped me buying from the US for a while.
If you do order the gun, but lots of 1.5" nails. You are paying for shipping and import duties anyways so you might as well stock up. I bought mostly 1.25" and hardly use them.

Regards
Mark

[gerryv]

Thanks much Mark. Is it realistic to think that these nails will actually go through hard maple and other hardwoods? I'm assuming it would be less of a concern with western red cedar. One of the products we're going to be producing will require us to start with six quarter rough lumber so maybe 1.25" coming off the jointer and planer. I'm wondering if it could work using your strategy - that's a lot of really hard wood to penetrate so would likely need. It sure would be nice if that could work as I'm really concerned about hitting clamps and such considering my limited skills.

[Mark Owen]

Gerald,
Raptor nails will not pierce 1" hard maple. 3/4" yes but can also cause splitting of the wood. I am guessing oak would be the same. Softer woods are okay. I think T track with the ShopFox clamps from Rockler would be the best bet for Hardwood.
You could also create a template out of mdf to hold the wood as long as the wood was dimensioned exactly the same size each time. Surround the wood and do 1/8" downcut through with material. The chips would fill the void the stop movement.
Unfortunately, there is no one clear answer. Every situation or even piece of board is different.

[gerryv]

Nothing beats good, clear info based on experience. I'm sure there are others now and in the future who will also benefit from your help on this so thanks once again. :)