DIY Vacuum Box

[kenkelsey]

Hello Forum. Just finished building a modified version of the Gary Campbell vacuum box using two Lighthouse 7123 230v Vac motors and have these comments for others to benefit from my learning curve. First lesson, the horn of the vac motor is the exhaust, not the vac connection. Dumb me, I assumed this was the intake. As a result, I built the box incorrectly. Not a big change, but I learned that the idea is that the bottom of the box is considered to be the plenum and the vacuum lines tap into the bottom side of the box. Corrected that problem, but have to say that the vacuum pull at the entry to the box is not that impressive. I would say that with both LH7123's running, I have a vacuum pull a little less than my Craftsman shop vac. I am going to disassemble the box and seal all of the edges, but I wonder if I'm going to have enough vacuum to do the job. Have not built the table plenum or the piping yet. Appreciate anyone else's experience in building your own vacuum box. Here is a photo of the box, before I corrected the direction of flow (the vac should pull from the bottom and exhaust from the top (out of the left side in my photo). I thought just the opposite. I have sense sealed up the holes that appear on the bottom left of the box and cut in two holes on the bottom left side of the photo for the piping connection. Note photo appears on its side.

[jTr]

Two years ago, I built the 4 motor version, but 98% of the time, all I run are the two primaries. I'm quite a bit above sea level, so I only get about 6 -7" of pull, but it is enough. Kicked on the secondaries a day ago because I had an unruly sheet of 3/4" that was curled on the edges. The primaries added just enough pull to keep the edges down after manually pushing down to the table to aid the seal.

You could easily build an identical box of two and gang up by connecting with a check valve if you feel the need down the road, but you can proceed with a reasonable amount of confidence with the two you're starting with.

Congrats on delving into the vac project. Once you've got a system in place, you'll be very happy - it is key to productivity with these machines.

jeff

[barrowj]

I built the 2 motor version with the Lighthouse motors and only after throughly sealing the vacuum area of the box did I get 7-8" of pull. I still have not sealed the bleeder board down (too cold for me to want to be in the shop, it is a semi-hobby for me anyway right now) so i'm not positive of the success. It did hold down a completely unsealed 2x2 area of my table. Here are some pics to see where i'm at on this project.

[kenkelsey]

Really appreciate the pictures, but I don't see where the vacuum lines hook up. My original mistake was not understanding that the bottom of the LH motor is the suction end and the area below the motors in the box is the plenum. My current assumption is that the vac lines must connect into the plenum area, but I don't see that from your photos. By the way, the plenum (grid) on your CNC table looks great.

[barrowj]

Ken,

Here are pics of how I piped my system. I routed the holes in the plenum to match the outside diameter of the 2" pvc, then cut a shoulder the diameter of a coupler. I glued a 3/8" piece of coupling onto a piece of pipe, applied silicone to the shoulder and pushed the pipe all the way down. Let me know if you have any further questions, you can email directly at joe@joebarrow.com if you wish.



Joe

[barrowj]

Sorry Ken,

I guess my pics got deleted during the upgrade.

[Tim Lucas]

Hello Forum. Just finished building a modified version of the Gary Campbell vacuum box using two Lighthouse 7123 230v Vac motors and have these comments for others to benefit from my learning curve. First lesson, the horn of the vac motor is the exhaust, not the vac connection. Dumb me, I assumed this was the intake. As a result, I built the box incorrectly. Not a big change, but I learned that the idea is that the bottom of the box is considered to be the plenum and the vacuum lines tap into the bottom side of the box. Corrected that problem, but have to say that the vacuum pull at the entry to the box is not that impressive. I would say that with both LH7123's running, I have a vacuum pull a little less than my Craftsman shop vac. I am going to disassemble the box and seal all of the edges, but I wonder if I'm going to have enough vacuum to do the job. Have not built the table plenum or the piping yet. Appreciate anyone else's experience in building your own vacuum box. Here is a photo of the box, before I corrected the direction of flow (the vac should pull from the bottom and exhaust from the top (out of the left side in my photo). I thought just the opposite. I have sense sealed up the holes that appear on the bottom left of the box and cut in two holes on the bottom left side of the photo for the piping connection. Note photo appears on its side.

Hi Ken,

I wanted to take a moment to address your question - I set up my vacuum like you are doing using 2 lighthouse motors with a 5 section plenum - below are a couple pictures of some corbels I cut today - Using one section 24"x33" of my plenum with a piece of 1/4" plywood to cover the top but not covering the ends as the board was 7"x26" I could not move the board and it held fast with no problem. I think you will have plenty of vacuum and really enjoy it once you finish.

Tim

[kenkelsey]

Thanks Joe, Tim.
Joe I believe your first pic is showing the vac line into the vac box. It looks like you went into the vac box with a 3 or 4 inch pipe connected via a toilet flange.

I currently have two, 2 inch lines entering into the vac box. Should I change to one larger opening? My thought was I sometimes I would only use one vac motor and one line going into the vac box?

What kind of connection is made to the table where the pipes pass through the table. Are there flanges like you used on the vac box or did you just push the piping through the table and glue them in?

Tim, nice looking work. Were you able to hold the wood down even as you were cutting all the way through all of the openings?

[barrowj]

Ken,

I used a 3" pipe going into a flange, i have done a good bit of research on this forum and found the majority use 3" but don't hesitate to experiment and let us know how it works out.

I pushed the pipe through the hole and cut a shoulder in the hole 3/8" deep so I could glue a 3/8" piece of coupling to it then used silicone to hold it in the hole.

To summarize my setup, base is 3/4" plywood then the plenum is cut from 3/4" mdf, sealed by painting (some use different ways to seal), then cut the grid which included a hole large enough for the 2" pipe and a shoulder 3/8" below the grid but not into the plywood and cut a piece of 2" coupling to glue onto the 2" pipe to hold the pipe from dropping out of the hole.

Joe

[Tim Lucas]

Thanks Joe, Tim.
Joe I believe your first pic is showing the vac line into the vac box. It looks like you went into the vac box with a 3 or 4 inch pipe connected via a toilet flange.

I currently have two, 2 inch lines entering into the vac box. Should I change to one larger opening? My thought was I sometimes I would only use one vac motor and one line going into the vac box?

What kind of connection is made to the table where the pipes pass through the table. Are there flanges like you used on the vac box or did you just push the piping through the table and glue them in?

Tim, nice looking work. Were you able to hold the wood down even as you were cutting all the way through all of the openings?

Ken,
yes it holds fast! I am using a 1/4" down cut so it fills the cut with chips and helps to hold the seal.

I have a 3" pipe going into my box also and the 2" going into the plenum like Joe I cut a shoulder and glued part of a coupling on the pipe so it wont pull through the bottom from the pipe weight.

[kenkelsey]

Joe, thanks, very helpful. I think I've got it now. I assumed that I needed two lines coming from the vac box running over to my manifold that distributes vacuum to the six table ports. It would be simpler to run one larger line to the manifold. I now understand your photo of the box. You have the vac port coming out of the side that has the legs. I cut two, 2 inch ports coming out of the side without the legs. Does it matter?

I see that you used 3" piping up to and including the manifold and then stepped down to 2" for the under table piping. Correct? I assume you used flexible pipe from the vac box to your manifold. Where did you get 3 inch flexible pipe? I find 2 1/2 and 4 inch at Rockler, but no 3 inch.

[barrowj]

Ken,

The theory behind one 3" pipe to supply the manifold is to be able to use the holding power of both motors at the same time. I would assume that if you were going to use only a small section then you might could get away with powering only one motor but I haven't tried it. The 3" coupling ($6.42 w/Prime) came from Amazon, here's the link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00077PW72/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I would cover up the 2 - 2" holes and go with one 3" and have both motors pull from the same chamber if that makes sense.

Here is a pic of my box prior to closing it up.

[kenkelsey]

Thanks guys. I've asked enough questions to take the next step. May need to rework the vac box to have one 3 inch port rather than 2, 2 inch.

Tim: I visited your web site - WOW! Impressive furniture. I'm in the sign business, but build a simple furniture piece now and then. I wish I lived closer to your shop. I could use the woodworking training for my hobby (in between signs).

[barrowj]

Ken,

I agree, I would love to hook up with someone close that has more experience with it than I do. I have owned 2 (2000-2006, 2014-present) but have never really used them to their full potential. Also, I have never cut cabinets on them but think I will this summer as I want to completely redo my kitchens..

Joe

[kenkelsey]

Hi Guys: With your help I have modified my vac box design to have one 3 inch vac port. I will have to cut some new pieces for my actual box to catch up with my design. The design was done in Sketchup 15. If anyone wants the design file I am happy to share.

If you see anything wrong with this design, let me know. Easier to correct now than after I start hooking up the plumbing.

[barrowj]

Ken,

Looks good to me, just one last thing, did you get the gaskets with the motors? That is very important cause if you overtighten them with not gaskets then you risk ruining your motors.

Joe

[kenkelsey]

Joe: I did get the gaskets, but did not see where they were used. Seemed like the whole was not big enough. I'm going to my shop soon and I will have another look at the gaskets (and start rebuilding the box). I have only had the power on long enough to see that the vacs work so I don't think there is any damage. Screwed them down lightly.

[barrowj]

Ken,

The gaskets go between the motor and the wood....

[jerry_stanek]

After I made a .5 inch deep cut between the zones with a .25 bit. I then threw the spoil board on the plenum and and surfaced it. Then I used the same file that I cut the .25 zones and cut the spoil board all the way through. so I had 4 pieces. I then removed it and glued .25 inch sintra strips in the cuts. I then glue each section of spoil board down to the penum.
When I was done it looks like this.

[Tim Lucas]

Thanks guys. I've asked enough questions to take the next step. May need to rework the vac box to have one 3 inch port rather than 2, 2 inch.

Tim: I visited your web site - WOW! Impressive furniture. I'm in the sign business, but build a simple furniture piece now and then. I wish I lived closer to your shop. I could use the woodworking training for my hobby (in between signs).

Thanks Ken, I do have a lots of fun building for others :D
yes to bad we are not closer I could use some sign training

[kenkelsey]

Joe: Regarding the gaskets. I did stick them on the bottom on the motors, but my motors do not mount on wood; they are suspended from the 3 mounting points on the motor. I realized with your latest pic that you placed the motors on the wood mount and used long bolts to hold them down. I stuck the motors through a support board with two 5.75 inch holes cut into it. If you look back at my Sketchup design again, I think you will see what I mean.

Today, I assembled the 3 inch manifold and the six 2 inch PVC valves. Also reworked the vac box to have one 3 inch vac line. I am piped from the vac box to the manifold. I am ready to remove the current spoil board and machine the plenum into the MDF layer that is below the spoil board, and above the 3/4 plywood board. Then, I will just need to do the under table piping and bring the 2 inch PVC up through the plywood layer and the MDF Plenum. Your pictures and comments helped in a big way. Thanks again.

[barrowj]

Ken,

I went back and looked at your first pic and see what you are talking about with the mounting of the motors. I haven't used mine enough but can state for sure that the slightest amount of leakage can really hurt the amount of vacuum. I question the mounting for 2 reasons, heat build up (which I can tell you is hot) and if you will be losing any vacuum due to not having a gasket. I can't answer any of these questions reliably but can say that when i put my box together, I failed to silicone the small vacuum area front and back boards and that even though every thing was screwed down tight I still lost most of the vacuum before it ever reached the table. I went back and completely sealed every joint in that small chamber and I was then getting 8" of vacuum.

Hope this helps,

Joe

[kenkelsey]

Good morning Joe. I did seal the box with silicone, but I did not apply around the motors where they pass through the support board. It is a pretty tight fit. I do seem to have a lot of vacuum at the port. Today I will finish the piping up to and through the manifold. Followed your advice to use 3 inch pvc.

I have only had the motors running for a few minutes and the box does heat up quickly.

I looked at ebay for a vac gauge. Do I just tap in into the first pipe going to the first port on the table? When you say 8 inches is this with one port open with something covering that zone of the table?

[barrowj]

Ken, you can get the vacuum guage and a 2" x "2" x 1/2" tee from there also, here are the links to what I got.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009F3JTFK/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0037QFK4K/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009F38VAO/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[David Iannone]

Ken,
I put my vac gauge in the PVC before all my zone valves. Also, an idea I followed from the forum was to get any outdoor type thermometer that has the wire with temp sensor at end. Then epoxy/DS tape it to the metal can of one motor and bring the lead out of box so you can monitor temp. From what I understand 200 degrees is redlining the motors, but about 130 degrees is where most say they run. Don't forget to add a way to bleed air into the system. The pic Joe showed is a nice valve. The little airflow you give the motors helps keep them cool.

Joe,
Glad to see you are making good progress. I didn't seal or glue my box.....sounds like I will need to take apart and do that. Not to ask a stupid question, but what kind of silicone did you use? I remember reading a while back about not using certain types to seal the inside of the box. I assume this is cause of the heat build up?

Dave

[barrowj]

Ken,

I bought my valve at amazon along with the filters:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00835OMXU/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FMZ3R8/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Dave, I used the GE Waterproof Clear from HP, white with blue labeling.

Yes, you need to seal the vacuum chamber real good.

Joe

[David Iannone]

Ken,
Something like this is what I used.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/AcuRite-Digital-Window-Thermometer-with-Humidity-Display-and-Clock-00891A3/100654924

Joe,
Thanks, gonna try to finish mine up by Tuesday. Will report results.

Dave

[kenkelsey]

Joe, Dave, keep those tips coming. Temp gauge is a great idea. I have really noticed the heat with just a few minutes of running.

On the vac gauge, I need to think how to add this. I've already cut and glued the pipe for most of the fittings. I think the only line that I could add the 2 inch pipe with the 1/2 nipple would be my last zone (far right of the table).

I rough cut all of my under table pvc piping today and glued up to and including the pvc valves. Next steps for me will be to remove my current spoil board, cut the plenum, bore out the holes through the table and attach the pipe.

Question: Are any filters used for the vac box? We are not really vacuuming anything into the box, but not sure if I need a filter anywhere on the vacuum side of the motors?

Regarding the recommendation to vent the box, are you suggesting that I drill a hole into the vac box plenum area? I believe LH recommends a 1/4 hole.

Tried to upload progress pics from my phone, but got a failed to load message?

[kenkelsey]

The Pics after I resized 620 by 280

[David Iannone]

In line filter yes, make one using a shopvac filter from depot. John Coryat designed a cool in line filter (IMO) that I am modeling mine after, but have not yet finished.

All this work we are doing to our tables to provide high power vac hold down, so why not put a filter at the source right? as long as it doesn't restrict flow. I am only using what other have shared here and adapting to MY situation.

I would not drill the holes suggested by lighthouse, but simply insert a valve as Joe did that you can open as much as you like for "venting/bleeding"
I did the same as Joe, but I used a big 2" PVC ball valve and it looks bulky.....but will work.

The good thing about PVC is a battery sawzaw, some couplings, pvc glue and time can fix almost anything.

Dave

[matney_models]

I built the 2 motor version with the Lighthouse motors and only after throughly sealing the vacuum area of the box did I get 7-8" of pull. I still have not sealed the bleeder board down (too cold for me to want to be in the shop, it is a semi-hobby for me anyway right now) so i'm not positive of the success. It did hold down a completely unsealed 2x2 area of my table. Here are some pics to see where i'm at on this project.


On your plenum2 pic what size cutter did you use?

[Tim Lucas]

Joe, Dave, keep those tips coming. Temp gauge is a great idea. I have really noticed the heat with just a few minutes of running.

On the vac gauge, I need to think how to add this. I've already cut and glued the pipe for most of the fittings. I think the only line that I could add the 2 inch pipe with the 1/2 nipple would be my last zone (far right of the table).

I rough cut all of my under table pvc piping today and glued up to and including the pvc valves. Next steps for me will be to remove my current spoil board, cut the plenum, bore out the holes through the table and attach the pipe.

Question: Are any filters used for the vac box? We are not really vacuuming anything into the box, but not sure if I need a filter anywhere on the vacuum side of the motors?

Regarding the recommendation to vent the box, are you suggesting that I drill a hole into the vac box plenum area? I believe LH recommends a 1/4 hole.

Tried to upload progress pics from my phone, but got a failed to load message?

Just wanted to add my thoughts here
- vacuum gauge - I drilled a hole in my 3" pipe coming off my box
- vent hole is a must as LH will not warranty the motors - I drilled a 3/8" hole same area as my vacuum gauge - If I cover the hole with my finger it will pull down to 10" uncover the hole 8"
- filter going into vacuum box yes - like old carburetor on engine, it will run without air filter but sucking trash into engine not good
Tim

[barrowj]

On your plenum2 pic what size cutter did you use?

Kevin,

I used a 1/2" sprial..

[kenkelsey]

Joe: I have the vac gauge and the connecting PVC in my Amazon shopping basket. I don't understand where/how you used the valve in your Picture? Do you have a Pic of the installation.

Dave: The indoor/outdoor thermometer is a great idea. I don't see the temperature range capability. Does it go up to 200 degrees F? Did you buy on line or in the HD store?

Dave: Don't understand where/how I would place a filter. Any Pics?

Dave, Joe: Does it matter where I place the vac gauge (on the 3 inch pipe near the vac box or on one of the 2 inch pipes feeding to one of the table ports?

[barrowj]

Ken,

I put both the vac gauge and the valve on the 2" pipe before any cutoffs, look at the left side of the pic attached and you can see then just before the valves.

Joe

[barrowj]

Also, I forgot to include this prior but this is a pic of how I attached a 3/8" cutoff of a coupling to the plenum pipe, this is like a collar that holds the pipe from dropping out of the plenum.

Joe

[David Iannone]

Ken,
You got me on the thermometer....I don't even know if it goes to 200 degrees. I did get it at the home depot store though in the outdoor section. I already had it sitting around so that is what I put in there. Pic is attached.

I haven't ran my box enough to know if it goes that high because as you see in my pics I have done plumbed myself into a corner....LMAO Just as I am not a word worker, I am no plumber either.

The Silver box I had fabricated is going to hold my control CPU and the SB control box. I am simply going to "place" them inside, extend the on/off switches somewhere convenient. I hope to do a better job with the small wires and two switches than my plumbing. I have an older PRT machine that I decided last year to add the 4g board, and things have been spiraling out of control since then.......:D

I didn't sit down and really draw out a plan, I just have been doing as I go, and room got tight cause I didnt pull out a tape measure. (At least I'm honest) but I will figure someway to get the filter inline right after the vac box and into the manifold with little space. I gonna have to stand and just stare at it for an hour or so maybe.......:eek:

I hope the pics help.


Dave

[David Iannone]

more pics, I'll get it together, just taking longer than I thought.

[kenkelsey]

Today I am ready to route the table plenum. I have a file which was set up with eight zones which will need to be reworked for just six zones. Any chance someone has a Vcarve or Aspire file designed for six zones? Just trying to save time and get to the routing part more quickly.

Ordered a digital thermometer, 1/2 inch PVC valve, vac gauge and some fittings from Amazon. Trying to finish almost everything else today.

Joe Dave, thanks for the additional pics. Dave, have to say that I don't understand the filter idea. Joe did you build a filter?

[Tim Lucas]

Today I am ready to route the table plenum. I have a file which was set up with eight zones which will need to be reworked for just six zones. Any chance someone has a Vcarve or Aspire file designed for six zones? Just trying to save time and get to the routing part more quickly.

Ordered a digital thermometer, 1/2 inch PVC valve, vac gauge and some fittings from Amazon. Trying to finish almost everything else today.

Joe Dave, thanks for the additional pics. Dave, have to say that I don't understand the filter idea. Joe did you build a filter?

Ken, here is my six zone 4' x 8' in Vcarve

I used a filter where the 3" pipe flange is attached to the box

Tim

[kenkelsey]

Thanks for the file Tim. Do you have a pic of the filter that you built/used?

The forum has saved me tons of work (and dozens of trial and error mistakes) Really appreciate the great mutual support.

[Tim Lucas]

Thanks for the file Tim. Do you have a pic of the filter that you built/used?

The forum has saved me tons of work (and dozens of trial and error mistakes) Really appreciate the great mutual support.

Yes sir, I used a flat filter with a reinforced back (looks like I need to clean it:eek:)

[kenkelsey]

Cut the plenum today. What a mess milling off the old spoil board and then cutting the grid into the underlying MDF board. Tomorrow I will cut out the vac holes and connect the under table pvc. That should do it except for adding the filter, vac gauge, digital thermometer and vent escape value.

Is your filter inside of the opening to the box? I mounted my 3 inch flange connection on the inside of the box. Can't be removed without taking the box apart. I need to think of something else.

[David Iannone]

Tim,

I like your filter method. Simple and effective. Maybe I have been over thinking that part? Your pics just helped me figure out how to finally finish up my system. The filter is where I hit a brick wall for the last week or two. I can always find another use for that 8" x 12" slice of PVC and shopvac filter.

Dave

[kenkelsey]

Cut the plenum today. What a mess milling off the old spoil board and then cutting the grid into the underlying MDF board. Tomorrow I will cut out the vac holes and connect the under table pvc. That should do it except for adding the filter, vac gauge, digital thermometer and vent escape value.

Is your filter inside of the opening to the box? I mounted my 3 inch flange connection on the inside of the box. Can't be removed without taking the box apart. I need to think of something else.

Tim: Thanks again for the plenum file. Finished the piping last night and the Vac system is working. Next I am going to seal the plenum (MDF) with shellac and install the new spoil board. Question: How do I attach the new spoil board to the plenum? I was thinking to silicone around the edges of the plenum and then pull down the new spoil board with the Vac. Is that good? Once I attach the new spoil board, I will not be able to see where the zones start and end. Do you mark the table so how?

BTW, I have asked so many questions to the forum over the past two weeks that I have been upgraded to "Member" status - no longer New Member.

[Tim Lucas]

Tim: Thanks again for the plenum file. Finished the piping last night and the Vac system is working. Next I am going to seal the plenum (MDF) with shellac and install the new spoil board. Question: How do I attach the new spoil board to the plenum? I was thinking to silicone around the edges of the plenum and then pull down the new spoil board with the Vac. Is that good? Once I attach the new spoil board, I will not be able to see where the zones start and end. Do you mark the table so how?

BTW, I have asked so many questions to the forum over the past two weeks that I have been upgraded to "Member" status - no longer New Member.

Good morning Dave,
I have read that sealing with shellac doesn't work that good because is dry's before it can soak in - not sure, just what I read - I sprayed mine with lacquer sanding sealer. I attached my spoil board with silicone and it seems fine - I could not figure out how to hold the 1 piece spoil board up and silicone under it so I cut mine to match my zones and silicone between them and on the outside edge also - that helps me find the zones and then I marked on the outside edge where the outside border of the zones are with a marker - yes run vacuum system to pull down spoil board - don't forget to surface bottom side of spoil board to break the glaze.
Have Fun
Tim

[David Iannone]

Ken,
I used Silicone to glue my spoil board to plenum. Some will skim the side you glue down, and some do not. In my case I skimmed a little off the glue side before putting it down.

I haven't marked mine, but know where the zones start and end based on my table plenum design/cut file.

Once I get my vac table up and running ( a few more days) I will start to then setup some sort of "template" file I think in Aspire that will be on a separate layer. Can turn on or off to try to begin to learn how far I can push my hold down with two motors. I built the box for 4 motors but only used 2 for now and just covered up the other two holes inside. If I really want to get crazy later on I will throw two more in the box and hold my ears........:D

Seriously though, they are loud, but I knew that going in. I run a PC router anyhow right now, so between the PC router making noise, the bit/material being cut chirping and dust collection I am already registering 95 decibels on my iphone decibel app at times.

The barber shop next to me has never complained, but they say they know when I am running the machine.....hehe
Will be interesting when I get everthing working together to see how far the sound is gonna travel and if there is gonna be complaints. I am in an industrial sorta business store front place so I don't know if they can do anything but complain.

Dave

[David Iannone]

Hi Tim,
Yeah, it didn't seem like enough when I did it, so I ended up coming back with black spray paint and painting the plenum. I sure hope that was enough because the thought of machining the new 3/4" spoilboard back down to plenum and having to reseal would not be fun.

But I will machine it all back off if I have to. Worst case it will be lots of saw dust, time and noise and a lesson learned I will never forget. Still crossing my fingers on that part.:eek:

Dave

[kenkelsey]

Thanks Tim, Dave. Good suggestions. Tim I noticed int he plenum file that you gave me that you hand routed paths from each 2 inch hole to the corner of each zone. Was there a reason for this? I have not seen this in other pics of table plenums Have not placed the spoil board yet, so I could still make these cuts if they are important. Also, I noted that some folks have cut a path down to the plywood table between the zones and place a more dense material in that location to stop bleed between zones. Is this important? I had the thought to route a 1/4 cut between zones down to the plywood and fill the groove with silicone. Is that worthwhile?
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24166&stc=1

[barrowj]

Guys,

I have been giving thought to the placement of my T-track. I left 2" between each zone so I decided after reading everything in this thread I will use that space to lay my t-track between each zone. This will work nicely with cutting my bleeder board for each zone, gluing a veneer piece of hickory to the edges and then silicone them down. Now I am happy that I have finally figured out that I can use them. Also, I had thought to use 1/2 mdf but will use 3/4 after skimming off the side that will be placed down.

Anyone see any issues with this idea?

Joe

[David Iannone]

Joe,
Sounds nice. My ttrack is in between my zones. I started by putting them down first. Looking back I wish I would have cut them in after like you are gonna do. Mine didn't turn out as "neatly done" As I could have done it buy cutting the area out of material with machine, then laying in the track. The day all the ttrack came in I got excited to get them on the table so went with that first.......:D (First time using ttrack) The veneer sounds like a good idea I think and will look good, and seal.

I still have to seal my edges of spoil board. I'm gonna paint mine Bot Blue.

Dave

[kenkelsey]

I did seal my plenum with Bullseye Sanding Shellac. Only comment is that it soaked in very quickly and I had to brush rapidly to get coverage before it was gone. It took one gallon to make one coat of a 4 by 8 table. I will be putting on a second coat before I lay down the spoil board.

[David Iannone]

Finally just finished my filter, and siliconed the vac chamber inside the box. I also had to seal screw holes because I used screw hold down making the box. Don't forget to seal any screw holes. My box would have leaked like a.......


Dave

[David Iannone]

And the back filter. Used gutter guard, and the cheap air conditioner filter material.

[kenkelsey]

Filter system looks good. I just cut up a furnace filter and placed it in the 3 inch pipe just outside of the vac box. Like the idea of the gutter guard screen.

I sealed my plenum with 2 coats of shellac, but wonder if I should have used paint or wood glue. First coat soaked in so fast that it was hard to spread with a brush before it was gone. Second coat did not disappear as quickly. Then I laid down the spoil board and did not get a lot of hold on a 3 by 3 sheet of aluminum. At this point I have not glued the spoil board to the plenum and my vac box does leak.

I definitely will open up the vac box and seal with silicone, but Not sure if I should reseal the plenum before gluing the spoil board. Maybe I am just jumping the gun by expecting great hold down when I have not finished the job, but it would be easier to seal the plenum with something else before I glue down the spoil board and find that I don't have enough hold down. I'm using to LH motors and a vac box just like yours. Have not painted the box. Any suggestions?

[Tim Lucas]

Filter system looks good. I just cut up a furnace filter and placed it in the 3 inch pipe just outside of the vac box. Like the idea of the gutter guard screen.

I sealed my plenum with 2 coats of shellac, but wonder if I should have used paint or wood glue. First coat soaked in so fast that it was hard to spread with a brush before it was gone. Second coat did not disappear as quickly. Then I laid down the spoil board and did not get a lot of hold on a 3 by 3 sheet of aluminum. At this point I have not glued the spoil board to the plenum and my vac box does leak.

I definitely will open up the vac box and seal with silicone, but Not sure if I should reseal the plenum before gluing the spoil board. Maybe I am just jumping the gun by expecting great hold down when I have not finished the job, but it would be easier to seal the plenum with something else before I glue down the spoil board and find that I don't have enough hold down. I'm using to LH motors and a vac box just like yours. Have not painted the box. Any suggestions?

You have a sheet of plywood under your plenum correct?

your spoil board - have your skimmed it yet?

Tim

[kenkelsey]

Yes, I do have 3/4 inch plywood below and the mdf plenum board is glued to the plywood. I have skimmed one side of the mdf (the top), but I need to find a helper to flip it over to be glued down. I just got nervous at this point that there is not much hold down. I did hold down a sheet of alum pretty well placing it right on the plenum before laying down the spoil board. I admit that I am jumping steps, but I thought I would be able to get a good feel for what the vac can do before finishing the job. If I need to redo something, now is the time to do it.

[Tim Lucas]

I know that skimming spoil board both sides make a big difference - and spoil board not glued down will loose a good bit of vacuum
your plenum is probably sealed plenty good - I sealed mine with one coat of sanding sealer
I faced the same deal with gluing down my spoil board, it was to big for me to handle so I cut it in sections
to match my plenum sections and hey its only going to be surfaced away so you can set it up different next time (MDF top board - not plenum:D)
It sounds like you have it right so far
Tim

[Ajcoholic]

I know that skimming spoil board both sides make a big difference - and spoil board not glued down will loose a good bit of vacuum
your plenum is probably sealed plenty good - I sealed mine with one coat of sanding sealer
I faced the same deal with gluing down my spoil board, it was to big for me to handle so I cut it in sections
to match my plenum sections and hey its only going to be surfaced away so you can set it up different next time (MDF top board - not plenum:D)
It sounds like you have it right so far
Tim

Im not sure if many of you full sized machine owners read the Buddy section, but if not I will offer this..

For my plenum and spoil board, I first did the MDF plenum, sealed, then glued down spoil board. Cutting the plenum left many broken pcs of MDF and I couldnt get the "D" shaped neoprene gasketing laid into a groove cut with a 1/4" ball end mill. Then you just lay the MDF spoil board onto the gasketed plenum. Works very well and the spoil board is easy to flip (to keep from warping) and surface, and also replace when needed without any effort.

I wouldnt go back to the MDF plenum now - no way. You just have the initial cost of the plastic to pay for. Otherwise I cannnot see the benefits of the MMDF setup, other than cost.

On all the large machine set ups, the spoil board is also just sitting onto the gasketed table. Once the vacuum is turned on the spoil board gets pulled down flat.

Just thought I'd add this to the discussion..

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ajcoholic/IMG_2301_zps9c11d4bc.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/ajcoholic/media/IMG_2301_zps9c11d4bc.jpg.html)

[jerry_stanek]

Yes, I do have 3/4 inch plywood below and the mdf plenum board is glued to the plywood. I have skimmed one side of the mdf (the top), but I need to find a helper to flip it over to be glued down. I just got nervous at this point that there is not much hold down. I did hold down a sheet of alum pretty well placing it right on the plenum before laying down the spoil board. I admit that I am jumping steps, but I thought I would be able to get a good feel for what the vac can do before finishing the job. If I need to redo something, now is the time to do it.

If you cut the spoil board in the sizes of you plenum you can glue them yourself. Her is how mine looks. The white is .25 sintra that I had channeled into my plenum. When I surface the sintra just cuts with the rest of the top. It also keeps the vacuum from bleeding between the zones

[kenkelsey]

I know that skimming spoil board both sides make a big difference - and spoil board not glued down will loose a good bit of vacuum
your plenum is probably sealed plenty good - I sealed mine with one coat of sanding sealer
I faced the same deal with gluing down my spoil board, it was to big for me to handle so I cut it in sections
to match my plenum sections and hey its only going to be surfaced away so you can set it up different next time (MDF top board - not plenum:D)
It sounds like you have it right so far
Tim

I like the idea of cutting into 4 sections. This would also allow me to see the boundry of each vacuum section when I put materials down for routing and I could also seal the edge of each section of the spoil board. I note that some use gasketing around the edge of each section. Do I need this? Wasn't planning to use gaskets. Also, some do not glue down the spoil board? Any comment?

[kenkelsey]

Great idea. What do you have between the zones?

[jerry_stanek]

On mine I rip .25 Sintra into 1.5 inch strips and stand them up in the groove I cut with a .25 bit down into the plenum. Then I glue my spoil board down and glue the sides that are against the Sintra. It really helps with no bleeding of the vacuum to other zones. before I started doing this even with only one zone operating I could put a piece of material on the table farthest from that zone and could feel the suction on it. not enough to hold it in place but enough that to slide it would take more pressure.

[David Iannone]

Have not painted the box. Any suggestions?

I used One Shot brilliant blue. Very close to SB blue. I also last year repainted most of my bot with it too just so it would match perfect. Am gonna do all touch ups on machine and box next week. I only painted outside of box.


Andrew,
I read your vac hold down design and install a few times, as well as all the upgrades you did to your Buddy. Great job, you really have a top notch system setup there. I just figured to go the MDF route for my first try since this will be my first vac hold down and was nervous about doing the Starboard and gasket since I don't know any of the science behind the vac system and figured if I messed up at least it would cost me mainly my time and not a full sheet of the "good stuff". But a year or two down the road when spoil board needs to be changed, maybe try your method.

Have you had any issues with static and the Starboard?

Dave

[kenkelsey]

Great ideas guys. I am off to my shop to cut the spoil board into six pieces, look for some centra to place between the zones and seal up my black box vac (but its not black, not even painted). I was going to wait for a helper to flip the spoil board to mill the second side, but once I cut it on my panel saw, I can handle the job by myself. I'm smiling.

BTW how to you reply without Quoting the last person? Often I only see a choice to reply with a Quote. In this case, I just deleted the quote before posting.

[Ajcoholic]

I used One Shot brilliant blue. Very close to SB blue. I also last year repainted most of my bot with it too just so it would match perfect. Am gonna do all touch ups on machine and box next week. I only painted outside of box.


Andrew,
I read your vac hold down design and install a few times, as well as all the upgrades you did to your Buddy. Great job, you really have a top notch system setup there. I just figured to go the MDF route for my first try since this will be my first vac hold down and was nervous about doing the Starboard and gasket since I don't know any of the science behind the vac system and figured if I messed up at least it would cost me mainly my time and not a full sheet of the "good stuff". But a year or two down the road when spoil board needs to be changed, maybe try your method.

Have you had any issues with static and the Starboard?

Dave

Dave, as much as I have tons of "static" issues in my shop in the winter with pretty much zero RH% and fine dust everywhere... I have never had any issue with the Shopbot. The Starboard doesnt seem to attract a whole lot of dust either. But no issues with static - I have not had any issues with the computer, crashes etc.

[jerry_stanek]

At the bottom of the thread there is a reply to thread

[Tim Lucas]

Im not sure if many of you full sized machine owners read the Buddy section, but if not I will offer this..

For my plenum and spoil board, I first did the MDF plenum, sealed, then glued down spoil board. Cutting the plenum left many broken pcs of MDF and I couldnt get the "D" shaped neoprene gasketing laid into a groove cut with a 1/4" ball end mill. Then you just lay the MDF spoil board onto the gasketed plenum. Works very well and the spoil board is easy to flip (to keep from warping) and surface, and also replace when needed without any effort.

I wouldnt go back to the MDF plenum now - no way. You just have the initial cost of the plastic to pay for. Otherwise I cannnot see the benefits of the MMDF setup, other than cost.

On all the large machine set ups, the spoil board is also just sitting onto the gasketed table. Once the vacuum is turned on the spoil board gets pulled down flat.

Just thought I'd add this to the discussion..

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j307/ajcoholic/IMG_2301_zps9c11d4bc.jpg (http://s83.photobucket.com/user/ajcoholic/media/IMG_2301_zps9c11d4bc.jpg.html)

Andrew, I agree !! and will upgrade one day - cost and not knowing what the machine would do and act like keep me from spending
the extra
Tim

[kenkelsey]

With the great help from all of you, I finished my vac box and table today and it works. With all my questions and doubting-thomas concerns, I hope I did not scare away anyone out there that is thinking about building their own vac system. I built my system with six zones and I cut the spoil board in the same 6 sections and separated them with 1/4 inch strips of Skooterboard (like MDF but with a hard coat front and back). I used two LH vac motors and the Gary Campbell vac box. Total cost was around $600.

Another botter indicated that he wanted to use only one vac motor some of the time. In my set up, one vac has no hold down power. Another botter indicated that if only one motor is running the vac may pull through the other vac motor and not give much hold down power. Don't know if that is correct, but I can say for sure that there is no effective vac with only 1 motor running.

Thanks for all the tips and pics. If anyone else out there wants any help, I have collected lots of information and am happy to give back to the forum.

[jerry_stanek]

I have 2 Fein vacs with a valve between them. I can run 1 with the valve closed and get good vacuum for 1 zone

[kenkelsey]

I'm back. A few days ago I reported that I had finished by 2 vac system and it worked. I was pretty happy until I hooked up a vac gauge tonight. Most of you have reported 8 to 10 hg with 2 LH motors and the Gary Campbell black box design. I'm only getting 3 with all valves closed. 3 Hg does hold down pretty well, but I want to get up there with the rest of you.

I know that I built the vac box wrong. I thought the vac motors actually extended into the box's plenum area. I see from others pictures that the motors are mounted on a board above the plenum with a gasket. I also used construction grade plywood. It may let air pass through the walls of the box.

Its back to the design board for me. I keep using what I have (it does work) and start building a new box with furniture grade plywood. I'll be back. Any comments/suggestions encouraged.

[kenkelsey]

Joe: You were right. My design (mistake) where I had the motors extending into the plenum area was not correct and was not good. You suggested that the vacuum might escape around the holes where the motors protruded into the plenum area. I think you were right. I got my system running, but only pulling 3 HG with both motors running while most others are reporting 8 to 10 hg. I'm going to keep using what I have (it does work), but I'm going to rebuild using your photo. I wish I had gotten some photos from the forum before making my box, I thought I knew what I was doing, but I did not.

[kenkelsey]

I did order this same remote temp gauge and found that it only displays up to 122 F. I returned it and ordered a different gauge with a range up to 300 degrees F. About 20 bucks.

[Brady Watson]

Just a few comments...

It is nice to see people trying to learn. Keep at it, don't give up and do lots of homework.

All the questions, trials and tribulations you are going through have been answered many times over the years by yours truly and others. There are a number of assumptions and outright 'violations' going on in both this thread and the Black Box thread regarding proper vacuum setup for a 4x8+ machine. There are too many to spell out, but I'll just add some info to point in the right direction.

BT Vac system - great on a BT with an aluminum deck. Not the same animal as a larger machine. It's smaller machinable area eliminates a number of issues.

The proper layup for a 4x4/4x8+ machine is:

1) 3/4 or 1" MDO or other high quality (no sheathing or potato chips) plywood that gets bolted to the machine chassis.
2) 3/4" Medex moisture resistant MDF, Extira MDF or regular MDF for plenum, glued, weighted and edge clamped overnight using Titebond.
3) Ultralight MDF (Trupan Ultralight preferred) or LDF bleeder board,edges sealed, left to float on top of plenum or glued down with Titebond. (No silicone - too thick, it WILL fail and it will also dish the panel unless you put it in the center too - which will block flow in some channels)

*No gasketing is used on this system. Seal the edges well with 50/50 glue & water. Not sealing edges on a 4x8' machine equals 3 square feet of leakage area.

This layup has been used successfully on these machines for many years. Using this setup (or a BradyVac) I have successfully held down materials with a single Fein Turbo 3 (7.3 Hg" max) vacuum over a 4x8' area. It's HOW you use the vacuum. 2 LH motors are OK; 4 being preferred on a 4x8 machine for the CFM.

No gauge = floundering in the dark.

Test each vacuum motor for about 10 seconds (when cool), using a 2" pipe flange, a little bit of rubber sheet gasketing on the bottom, a 2" pipe and cap with nipple threaded in for your gauge. Like this (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=21&pictureid=118) (put the 2" cap in place of the check valve, on the end of the short 2" pipe) - and screw in your vacuum gauge. See what it shows on the gauge. Test all motors this way. Then you KNOW 100% for sure what it is, is & what ain't, ain't. If you don't get that on top of the table you have leakage somewhere. Start by draping plastic sheeting (or a bunch of trash bags) over the bleeder board. What does the gauge say? If it read 10 on the motor & it shows only 3 on the table bagged off, then you've got leaks...

...and YER GONNA have leaks if this is your first rodeo. Track them down. You can't do things like a hogan...You must glue your PVC properly and teflon tape all your threaded connections. Pretend you are hooking up a gas line in your kitchen...seal that puppy good - then go back and inspect with your ears for the tell-tale whistles.

Carry on...

-B

[kenkelsey]

The proper layup for a 4x4/4x8+ machine is:

1) 3/4 or 1" MDO or other high quality (no sheathing or potato chips) plywood that gets bolted to the machine chassis.
2) 3/4" Medex moisture resistant MDF, Extira MDF or regular MDF for plenum, glued, weighted and edge clamped overnight using Titebond.
3) Ultralight MDF (Trupan Ultralight preferred) or LDF bleeder board,edges sealed, left to float on top of plenum or glued down with Titebond. (No silicone - too thick, it WILL fail and it will also dish the panel unless you put it in the center too - which will block flow in some channels)

*No gasketing is used on this system. Seal the edges well with 50/50 glue & water. Not sealing edges on a 4x8' machine equals 3 square feet of leakage area.

This layup has been used successfully on these machines for many years. Using this setup (or a BradyVac) I have successfully held down materials with a single Fein Turbo 3 (7.3 Hg" max) vacuum over a 4x8' area. It's HOW you use the vacuum. 2 LH motors are OK; 4 being preferred on a 4x8 machine for the CFM.

No gauge = floundering in the dark.

Test each vacuum motor for about 10 seconds (when cool), using a 2" pipe flange, a little bit of rubber sheet gasketing on the bottom, a 2" pipe and cap with nipple threaded in for your gauge. Like this (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=21&pictureid=118) (put the 2" cap in place of the check valve, on the end of the short 2" pipe) - and screw in your vacuum gauge. See what it shows on the gauge. Test all motors this way. Then you KNOW 100% for sure what it is, is & what ain't, ain't. If you don't get that on top of the table you have leakage somewhere. Start by draping plastic sheeting (or a bunch of trash bags) over the bleeder board. What does the gauge say? If it read 10 on the motor & it shows only 3 on the table bagged off, then you've got leaks

-B[/QUOTE]
Hi Brady. I did not do all that you outlined, but I did do most. I am checking Vac right at the manifold before any valves or piping to the table. It is reasonably clear to me that my issue is the vac box itself. I know now that I installed the vac motors wrong. I actually cut holes the size of the motors and had the motors protruding into the vacuum's plenum area. I think the problem is no seal where the motors pass through the mount. Maybe you can see what I am describing from the attached photo. I am going to redo the vac box motor mount the way that it was supposed to be (my mistake) and see what Hg I get at the manifold. Good news is that I get almost the same Hg reading (3 Hg) with all of the valves to the table open. I guess that means that I have good CFM?

[kenkelsey]

I rebuilt my Vac Box last night (properly mounting the two LH Vac Motors they way there were supposed to be mounted) and got much better results, similar to what many of you have posted. Now reading 7 hg at the manifold with all valves to the table closed. I was only getting 3 hg before correcting the box. (BTW, 3 hg does hold pretty well, but 7 hg is far better). Also confirmed that in my vac box configuration, running one vac motor does not produce sufficient vac to hold anything. I did observe while I had the lid off of the Vac box that running one motor does cause the other motor to spin. Someone here had the theory that running one motor could draw through the other motor and reduce the vac to the table. For me, that is no longer theory, it is fact. I believe that if you want to run only one Vac motor you would have to patrician the Vac Plenum and have two connections to the Vac box instead of one. Life is a journey and I have learned a lot more about vacuum than I ever expected to learn, but it has been worth it.

[David Iannone]

Congrats Ken, glad to hear you goter tightened up. Mine is up and running great. I am still chasing down some small leaks but I am very happy with the results for the money invested also. I think I am going to go ahead in the near future and add 2 more motors to mine for the full 4 motor setup.

I just checked out your website. You do very nice work. I am sure you stay very busy, but when you get a chance here and there if you don't mind "giving back" a little and maybe do some posting in the Sign Making section of this forum. We need more like yourself on this forum that are professional sign makers putting good use to their Shopbot.

Pics of your techniques and brief descriptions help us all to learn and think out of the box.

Dave

[kenkelsey]

Pics of your techniques and brief descriptions help us all to learn and think out of the box.

Dave[/QUOTE]

Hi Dave. I will start posting some pics in the Sign area. Didn't think anyone would be that interested. My stuff pales by comparison to what you and others on the forum are doing.

My webpage is a bit out of date. I have been posting more current signs on facebook Signs of Excellence.

[joe]

I think your posts on the forum are spot on. All of us are in the learning process and encourage everyone to post more of what they're doing.

About Facebook. I'm not on Facebook and many of my friends aren't either. That leaves some of us out. I may need to do that but am very hesitant. Everyone over there must have a desire to tell their personal life story. As if that's important. It's a younger generation who feels that need. Shopbot new leadership is leading in that direction. So goes the Camp Postings.

[80grit]

I'm getting ready to build a vac box for 4 LH motors. I am only buying 2 for now and will buy 2 more when I get the funding. I've been pouring through vacuum posts here for months, trying to learn everything I can. I really appreciate everyone's experience and their willingness to share it.

For those who have used the LH motors, what is the greatest source of the noise? Cooling air intake, cooling air exhaust, vacuum exhaust?

Has anyone ever used another means to assist in cooling, like an external fan?

[Tim Lucas]

I'm getting ready to build a vac box for 4 LH motors. I am only buying 2 for now and will buy 2 more when I get the funding. I've been pouring through vacuum posts here for months, trying to learn everything I can. I really appreciate everyone's experience and their willingness to share it.

For those who have used the LH motors, what is the greatest source of the noise? Cooling air intake, cooling air exhaust, vacuum exhaust?

Has anyone ever used another means to assist in cooling, like an external fan?

Hi 80grit, the fans are loud but not from one area or the other, if noise is an issue I would locate the fan box in another area ( that's what I will do next )
I know others have added cooling fans to the box, Lighthouse says the fans can run fine @ 180 degrees.
One thing for sure, DO install a filter! I have read others say they clean the system real good and the spoil board will be the filter BUT
I know for a fact, stuff happens and when I cut through my spoil board ( all the way and then some trough:( ) I was very happy I had installed the filter! :D
I know the vacuum hold is awesome!
Tim

[80grit]

Thanks, Tim.

I do have enough space to put my vac system outside. It would just be more expensive and time consuming. I'd have to build some sort of covered structure onto my shop to make it work. I've been looking for an excuse to get my loud air compressor outside, though. This might be the excuse I need to make it happen.

I asked about what part makes the most noise because I figured one option would be to just run the exhaust out the side of my shop if that would gain me much, but like you say, I the whole unit is noisy. I will find out first hand in a couple days when I get my motors.

[willmorgan]

Could you tell me what size plastic board you are using? Also does any have a 6 zone set and can share their file. I am trying to build one now.

[Tim Lucas]

Could you tell me what size plastic board you are using? Also does any have a 6 zone set and can share their file. I am trying to build one now.
Will, I have a 6 zone cut file for a 4' x 8' but its on the other computer, I will try to post it tomorrow - Plastic board? for your plenum? if so 3/4" thick would be best.
Tim

[willmorgan]

Thanks Tim. That would be great. Yes I was asking which plastic for plenum? Someone told me starboard but I'm sure there may be others. Are you still just using MDF?

[Tim Lucas]

Thanks Tim. That would be great. Yes I was asking which plastic for plenum? Someone told me starboard but I'm sure there may be others. Are you still just using MDF?
Yes I am using MDF, would like to use Starboard but it is high dollar at this time. Do you have Vcarvepro 8 ? that is what I used for the cut path.
Tim

[willmorgan]

Yes sir, I have VCarve Pro 8.

[Tim Lucas]

I tried to upload the file but it wont let me ( says wrong file type ) send me your email and I will email it to you

Tim

[willmorgan]

Tim,
Sent you a private message.