Problem with glue and water based clear coats

[kevin]

This was a thread about canister contact cement

http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/adhesives.pl?read=774323

Also I use only water based mainly i like my brain cells .But its also easier to apply .I only had a problem one time

Water based clear coat is superior to lacquer i can write more why water based is more production friendly below is a graft written 12 years ago .When using a product do your own research find out why its the best NEVER ASK A SALESMAN
I've had a couple of failures on my own projects trying new things
Is Water Based Tough Enough ?

To demonstrate the hardness and durability of clear water-based finishes, Hydrocote conduced a Sward Hardness test to compare Water based Polyurethane to solvent-based nitrocellulose lacquer and oil based polyurethane.
The finishes were sprayed on metal plates and the films were subjected to abrasion from a swinging stainless steel pendulum at interval during the course of a week.

The chart to the right shows the hardness developed of the four products tested. The hardness values given are based on 1.5 mil film allowed to dry at 76�F and 45% relative humidity (Scale: Hardness of glass =100) .

One important note on the test. Water based Polyurethane doesn't reach its full strength until after 30 days. This test was done 4 years ago water based is a lot stronger now.
Hardness: Water-Based vs. Solvent Based

http://kdunphy.com/Polyur3.gif


Drying Times

Oil based

Polyurethane

Water based

Polyurethane

Nitro-Cellulose Lacquer





1 hr




15




3




20






2 hrs




27




8




27






8 hrs




38




22




30






24 hrs




40




42




30






48 hrs




43




56




30




1Week


45




63




30

[Burkhardt]

Maybe I should try that again. I used water based PU varnish many years ago on some projects that are exposed to the sun and they all turned grey after a few years. Never tried that again. Similar surfaces with oil based PU usually just darken/yellow over time. But probably not all coatings are alike and I forgot which brand I used back then.

[jerry_stanek]

Years ago I installed fixture for Revco Drug stores and Toledo Store Fixture switched to water based contact glue and every store they shipped out the glue failed. Had to go in and reglue the cabinets. real pain in the a$$.

[dlcw]

The one thing I worry about is elasticity of the finish when cured. As we all know wood moves. Can't stop it. I use MLCampbell Duravar conversion varnish and have never had a problem with the finish being able to accommodate the wood movement. I tried water based finishes a few years back and had some projects come back that the finish had cracked on large surfaces (tables). I'm assuming it was wood movement. I stripped the water based finish off and applied conversion varnish and have had no problems.

Is there something I'm missing with water based finishes?

[Sk8MFG]

We use water based clear coats exclusively in our skateboard manufacturing. Wonderful stuff.

[Ajcoholic]

Is there something I'm missing with water based finishes?

No you are not missing anything, lol. If you are using conversion varnish then you`re at the top of the woodworking finish chain, so to speak, already.

As you probably know, Conversion varnishes and Post-Cat Lacquers are still the tops in furniture coatings.

If water based product was superior - then all the big manufacturers would be switching. However, in many cases shops are forced to switch for environmental reasons or others. I know some smaller shops like mine, who just dont have the space for a proper paint booth and use water borne finishes since they cant spray a solvent based safely.

If you read the trade magazines and specifically follow whats going on in the world of finishes - the water borne lacquers and urethanes have come a long way in the past 20 odd years. Some of the catalyzed water based finishes are supposed to be really, really good. BUT... solvent based is still KING.. :)

Im not trying to argue Kevin, but this is according to what I know.

As for contact cements, that might be a different story.

[kevin]

"Varathane" Diamond Latex Finish that's what i used

I discovered the above product in 1992. I was working on a kitchen, refinishing it, and a customer used the product for a cabinet side with a foam roller. At the time, i was using oil based clear coat with a $20.00 brush. I could immediately see the benefits of water based and I was hooked. Easy to work with especially on site renovations.
Fast forward to 1997, took a job in aircraft in aircraft interiors. Before that aircraft interiors were done with chroma clear which is an automotive clear coat. The company had a contract to do 36 planes. The clear coat the company was switching over to was polyester. I never worked with it nor did anybody else. I saw lots of failures on aircrafts mainly with rosewood, zebra wood, teak, the oily woods. Sometimes when looking at the bulkhead, the clear coat looked like it was going to come right off as just one sheet. The first year of working there, I seemed to get sick a little more. The second year, they would close the aircraft hanger doors in September and it would take me until December for my immune system to start working. The third year was the same thing. I put 2 and 2 together and quickly realized that this was obviously hurting my health but we were also exposed to high silica.
I left in 2000 to start my own business in Montreal, i quickly went to water based clear coat. I have not had 1 failure. The drawback is you have to be skilled at spraying. As for the other furniture manufacturers, I presented a graph above. Remember the basic chemistry for all 3 clear coats are the same. Nobody has really reinvented the wheel. They perfected it but it is still the same chemistry. As for thinking that: "OK! I have a great spray booth and all the fumes are leaving my shop", as soon as you finish spraying, as it is curing it is give off gases. Even when you covered up spraying, it can go through your eyes.
Furniture or anybody has ever used water based on any production are quickly realizing they are not being forced and that it is an easier product to work with. I use quartz lighting in my spray booth. It dries faster than we can keep up with.
Myths of water based, it does not turn yellow. It is ideal for maple or holly and keeping it natural. It will not warp doors. If it is warping doors, you have bigger problems.
With all clear coats, your shop has to be a minimum of 65 degrees. As for trade magazines, do your own research. Most of those magazines are written by guys who have never worked a day in their lives in a cabinet shop who are interviewing salesmen promoting their products.
My health is good, I don't think I had any long term damage. Before 1992, I sprayed oil, I have a long history.
On failures be name time and product

Either you can be an innovator or a follower.

http://kdunphy.com/challengeri.jpg
All polished 12 coats

http://kdunphy.com/IMG3.JPG
http://kdunphy.com/P1020486.JPG

Foam brush 2002 all water based

[Kyle Stapleton]

We work a lot will oak and try to stay way from the water based do to the fact that it raises the grain so much. Is there a water based product that we can use that will not raise the grain and make use have to re-sand our project?

[jTr]

Have sprayed hundreds of gallons of water-based and solvent based finishes.

Numerous nightmares/complications with water based finish:
- Excessive coats needed to achieve a smooth surface - even with maple (veneer panels) due to grain-raise
- Very sensitive to atmospheric conditions - one day it dries in a flash, two weeks later, humidity has changed and now it's sagging/running
- Oak + high humidity= fish hook finish = 5 or more coats and excessive hours sanding
- Cherry - turns grey/green under water-based finishes
- High humidity location caused softening / peeling on a bath cabinet

I have a neighbor who has successfully converted to water based, but only finishes trims/doors flat. He refuses to spray furniture as I do, because of the difficulty laying down precisely the right coating thickness on complex surfaces.

Love this planet almost as much as my lungs, but got tired of working my fingers to the bone and burning through 1.5 times the amount of product to get acceptable results.

Conclusion: Really wish I could make it work and struggled for several years with different products and bought several of the latest & greatest spray equipment. Perhaps UV curing equipment is the answer to locking down that first coat or two before the grain can swell. Sadly, for now, I am unable to commit to water-based finishes.

[waynelocke]

I grew up around refineries and hit my petroleum quota early. I used to use an oil varnish wipe on but switched to water based in the mid 80's. The finishes are much better now but I don't think that I have ever had a finish failure on a delivered piece though I have certainly had my share of dammit moments in the shop. I have also done conference tables without issue.

I have always sanded after the sealer coat, even before the water based came along and that takes care of the grain raising. I use oak all of the time th water based and have no issue after sanding the seal coat. The grain raising should only be an issue with the sealer coat. After that the water base is not hitting bare wood.

I don't consider myself a great sprayer and sand out most finishes, especially table tops. I use 400, 1000, 2000, and 4000 grits and get a great looking rubbed out looking satin finish. For glossy I buff the surface. The surface is much nicer that straight from the gun.

In my experience, I use General commercial finishes, the water based is clear and doesn't yellow. I have also used the water based two part catalyzed finishes.

Bottom line...I don't miss the solvent at all.

[kevin]

Wayne his formula is right on
We sand between coats 320 takes about 4 coats there no way around it even with solvent .I want to switch to General i can get at wood essence in Canada

I won't use imported veneer period .We had separation or lifting which is good to happen in the shop not on site .Water base can be the canary in the coal mine .Always better to happen in shop
I only use Columbia forest products had one seem lift fixed no problem

On vertical i spray with 1.5 tip a trick i use is spray wait 10 mins let it get tacky then spray another coat I do this on the final never had a run .Great equipment at spray gun world
I was fortunate at the airport to work with a master told me more tricks then i can remember .Lacquer yes you can spray blind folded .But polyester is hard to spray like water based


High humidity can leave a haze but goes away after full cure does not affect finish
Oak is a pain if you want a water flat smooth finish use grain filler also great for walnut etc

All finishes will shrink when fully cured

[Ajcoholic]

I dont consider myself "a follower" lol. I have tried many finishing products from several of the bigger companies, and have always gone back to Canadian made post cat lacquer, from John E. Goudey's in Toronto. Based on my own testing it is still the best finish I have used, for furniture and cabinet work. For a "small" custom shop, weve turned over at least 200+ kitchens, too many tables & chairs, etc to count. My finish is MY livelihood. And I can say with complete honesty, I can count on a few fingers how many finishing issues we have had in the past 25 years weve been using post cat laquer.

Some of the other tradespeople I know in the woodworking business like a certain brand of finish - but the vast majority still consider a solvent based pc lacquer or a cv the better finish, in all around use (application) and durability etc. afterwards.

I recall back in the mid 90's when I was finishing college - we did some extensive testing on some water based wood finsihes that the companies selling them were claiming as superior to the staples of the industry. Well, they failed miserably in our testing (standarized finish tests). I know, again, from speaking regularly to others in the business, that water based product is getting better all the time. BUT... and again, this is my opinion and that of many, many in the business - it is still not "better" than solvent based.

I recently had a discussion with one of my finishing suppliers who sell both materials. He also agreed that water based is not yet "there". However, things might force out the solvent based materials in the next 10, 15 years (no real time line) and we all might have to use water based some day whether we want to or not.

As far as health concerns go - with proper facilities and PPG - you should not have any issues.

Those of us who have decided what works best for us do so for many reasons. My posts are more to give the newer guys another opinion - and that is before you decide what might be best for you, talk to several suppliers of both materials, talk to reps from the companies who make the product, go to trade shows and talk to people - and most importantly talk to guys who make furniture/cabinets/millwork for a living and see what they have to say. Then make a decision on what product to choose...

[Ajcoholic]

.Lacquer yes you can spray blind folded

I find this statement quite hard to understand... Ive been spraying at least a few days a week now since 95' (and started spraying in around 90'). I consider myself pretty good. However, spraying furniture - chairs, tables, cabinetry with varying openings. etc is what I would consider a skill no matter WHAT you are spraying. LAcquers are very forgiving once you get the mix right, and get the gun and pot set up. But, if you can spray with your eyes closed, I will hire you tomorrow for a very good wage! lol.

Anything flat is easy. Larger vertical surfaces are pretty much a no brainer. But when you have to spray things like a completed railing, etc and you have to attack it from various angles and up down, etc it takes a lot of experience.

I find chairs pne of the most difficult to get "perfect". And if youre spraying tinted coats, then you really better know what youre doing...

[kevin]

Andrew go out and buy a gallon and try it your self then post your experience and try polyester at the same time .


"I recently had a discussion with one of my finishing suppliers who sell both materials. He also agreed that water based is not yet "there". However, things might force out the solvent based materials in the next 10, 15 years (no real time line) and we all might have to use water based some day whether we want to or no"

Asking a salesman who is not a chemist is not the best person for advise

There a lot of wife's tales about water based made out of hear say not facts or experience
Heath money can't buy as I get older i know deep down you will pay .Sucking lacquer fumes through a bag will kill brain cells there is no debate on health

One of the big plus for water based s that it will last 5 years longer than lacquer I've seen first hand .Mainly because water based will burn off as solvent will peel off .

Is the graft wrong ?

[JimDav]

Kevin - Sorry for being a word 'nazi' but what you have posted is a GRAPH, nor a graft, technically a bar graph.

[Brian Harnett]

Thanks for bringing this subject up I have used water base on floors and it works better than solvent finishes in my experience, have even sprayed furniture and it worked out well. But I have been using solvent based lacquer mostly, I will give it a try on some of the live edge tables I have been making for inventory. The less nasty stuff in the shop the better.

[scottp55]

Slightly off topic, But both our shops are VERY small and not set up at all for lacquer fumes so we leave the shop the few times we have to use Laq(Deft/Watco Brushing Lacquer).
Just ordered this to test and Totally ignorant:(
ANY idea of dry times before I sand and put carpet tape on the blanks? NOT the actual finish and will be sanded off.
Any tips on using this on exotics like Padauk/Bloodwood/Purpleheart?
MIGHT it make a "dipping" finish ?
Sorry for interrupting thread.
https://generalfinishes.com/retail-products/water-base-top-coats-sanding-sealers/wood-turners-finish
scott

[Ajcoholic]

Andrew go out and buy a gallon and try it your self then post your experience and try polyester at the same time .


"I recently had a discussion with one of my finishing suppliers who sell both materials. He also agreed that water based is not yet "there". However, things might force out the solvent based materials in the next 10, 15 years (no real time line) and we all might have to use water based some day whether we want to or no"

Asking a salesman who is not a chemist is not the best person for advise

There a lot of wife's tales about water based made out of hear say not facts or experience
Heath money can't buy as I get older i know deep down you will pay .Sucking lacquer fumes through a bag will kill brain cells there is no debate on health

One of the big plus for water based s that it will last 5 years longer than lacquer I've seen first hand .Mainly because water based will burn off as solvent will peel off .

Is the graft wrong ?

Kevin, now I will say you are grasping at straws. We have kitchens done in the 80's from customers I see regularly that are in pristine shape. And that was with a pre cat lacquer we were using before switching to post cat around 88 or 89. Peeling is generally caused by improper prep work on the wood or something with an incompatability with stains etc. Peeling is definitley NOT an issue with a properly prepped and applied lacquer. No matter how long.


I have dining room tables out there in heavy use that look brand new 20 yrs out. I have never had any issues with finish peeling that I know of. Doing 90% of my work in the local community I certainly hear about any issues that come up, trust me. Our reputation is built on our quality and service and I have done free repairs on work my father did in the 70's (not finish related, lol).

I do talk to chemists - and every other person I can. Please, I have been in this business maybe not quite as long as you but long enough -and I do think I am very knowledgeable and I am not "easily sold" onto a salesman's slick talk.

I am entitled to my opinions as well as anyone - and I appreciate your reasons for using a water borne product. I simply dont agree with some of the things you say, and I am entitled to that as well I believe.

We used to do a LOT of hardwood floors. I dont touch many now, I would rather be building furniture. We used to use a moisture cure urethane that was super tough and very expensive, and was very smelly (the people would have to leave the home). Once we tried the water based Varathane (diamond finish) and boy oh boy it was no where near as tough as that urethane. No way no how.

And to clear things up for some who might not know - be aware that there are three familes of lacquers. Straight nitrocellulose - which is the original, air drying kind that is soft and not water resistant, easily scratched etc. It is the stuff they sell in hardware stores.

Next in the line up is a pre catalyzed lacquer which is formulated with a hardener - and usually has a limited shelf life. It is a much tougher version which has greater scratch resistance, resistance to staining and houshold chemicals, etc.

The top of the lacquer "food chain" is post catalysed - which is a synthetic lacquer to which an acid hardener is added before you spray. It has a very short pot life (usually a day or less). It is thye toughest and best in terms of wear, etc.

The conversion varnishes are a similar product in the urethane family - and are supposed to be even more wear resistant but have some different characteristics as well.

If you are comparing something to "lacquer", make sure it is a post cat lacquer as that is the stuff to use if you are looking for the best durability and hardness.

On that note I will refrain from further posts on this topic. I think I have expressed my opinions clear enough. :)

[Mark Owen]

As a fellow Canadian I am smiling ear to ear at my two bothers. Both Kevin and Andrew represent what it means to be Canadian. We are polite, courteous and typically quite reserved but if offend something we are passionate about, God can't help you. We will rip out your heart and eat it for dinner.
The best part of being Canadian is we have a choice to use what we want. To each his own boys! ;)

Regards
Mark

[Ajcoholic]

As a fellow Canadian I am smiling ear to ear at my two bothers. Both Kevin and Andrew represent what it means to be Canadian. We are polite, courteous and typically quite reserved but if offend something we are passionate about, God can't help you. We will rip out your heart and eat it for dinner.
The best part of being Canadian is we have a choice to use what we want. To each his own boys! ;)

Regards
Mark

OK one more but nothing to do with the "topic"..

I agree Mark - we should be all able to express our own likes, dislikes and passions in an adult manner without getting our personal feelings hurt.

For the record I admire everything Kevin has posted of his work and really think his shop turns out top notch stuff - both in design and construction. I am thankful to have a place (this forum) to discuss our trade and it's issues, with such a great group of people. Sincerely! :)

[jTr]

"We sand between coats 320 takes about 4 coats there no way around it even with solvent"

In keeping with the spirit of Andrew's message, I must clarify for those newly venturing into pro-grade levels of finishing, 4 coats is not typical for solvent based finishes, and is plainly discouraged if you follow directions on any can of "pre" or "post" catalyzed topcoat.


Solvent based topcoats that employ an acid catalyst WILL CRACK EVENTUALLY if applied too thick, which is why going beyond 3 coats is flirting with disaster. These are cross-linking finishes that will continue to pull molecules together, and if dry-film thickness is exceeded, they literally tear themselves apart, given enough time.

And please understand, just because water-born finishes don't smell bad doesn't mean they're good for you - read the directions and wear a respirator, especially if spraying.

So ...

Point #1: AHA! solvent based finishes are not perfect either!!!
Point #2: Costs associated by increased volume and sanding labor is very wasteful, regardless the product being used,in my opinion.
Point #3: Just re-visited the MSDS sheet on the CAB Acrylic conversion finish I use - Yikes! I'd quit this stuff today if I could. (Hopefully a safer, high quality/ high performer presents itself soon!)

I welcome future opportunities to do myself and the planet a favor and try new products as chemistry advances, provided the results are in harmony with my quality and efficiency standards. I am required to run my business with this level of responsibility, as my clients are relying on me to be here for a good long time, ready and able to provide the quality and value they've grown to expect. This is the same for all the other passionate, talented craftsmen who've engaged in this discourse, and well beyond. I too am grateful this discussion was initiated - many very good points have been posted and should be weighed seriously by anyone wishing to advance their finishing processes.

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it!

jeff

[Ajcoholic]

Jeff,
Every finish I have used specifies what the dry finished film thickness should be. A wet film generally will dry at 1/4 to 1/3 the thickness, since my lacquer is around 35% solids out of the pail, and thinned out to probably 25% solids. Spraying a 4 mil wet coat ends up somewhere in the 1 mil dry range - so 4 coats gets you where I want to be.

The number of coats is slightly confusing as it also depends upon what/how you spray. For instance, in winters here (which are brutally cold) my shop stays around 60 to 64 F). I mix a lot more thinners in my lacquer to get the proper viscosity to spray, than when it is 90F in the summer months (briefly!). Therefore I end up spraying a few more coats in the winter due to the fact I am applying less solids per coat.


Yes, if you build up a thicker finish you certainly can increase the likelihood of cracking! That is the price we pay for a harder, more durable finish - you give up flexibility.

Too little or too much is not good. I would assume that is the case for any wood finish.

I always said, as a small custom wood shop - the finishing aspect of my business is the most difficult to master, and also what can ruin an otherwise outstanding piece of work. A great finish on a piece of garbage wont make it look better. But a poor finish on a great piece otherwise still looks horrible.

[Ajcoholic]

If it was easy, [I]everybody would be doing it!

jeff

Amen! I wish I could buy one of those spraying robots.. :)

[kevin]

Jeff good point I realize spraying water base is still charcoal filter mask.This is a good topic sometimes we get to comfortable we have to look around also a look at solvent

Andrew I have nothing but respect weather where Canadians or not .To keep your door open as a small shop takes a lot of faith.I hope to have the tools Andrew has {he who dies with the most tool wins} .

Still suck at typing its very hard for me i try to give back in the sprite of Joe

Scott that finish look easy to work with look on you tube .I think padding can work give an amazing finish

Brain what I like about about water base is we do a lot built ins we use 6 inch crown no matter how good you are at at the cuts there still sanding to cut the edge.We use a foam brush after install the crown look like one piece no lines what so ever.Same with base and under mount


Wayne i will switch to General any thoughts on these as a one two combo also any other comments good or bad ?.

http://www.woodessence.com/Enduro-Sanding-Sealer-P215C61.aspx


http://www.woodessence.com/Enduro-Pre-Cat-Urethane-P190C61.aspx

New spray gun looking at all stainless steel interior .Love using 2.5 gallon pressure set up just drop a gallon in
http://www.spraygunworld.com/products/Asturo/X-Series/X-SeriesIIMaste%20KitHVLPHTE.html

http://kdunphy.com/IMG_2519.JPG

[scottp55]

Thanks Kevin,
Play with it next week:)
scott

[kevin]

I figure I'll finish these post .Why I stared this post was I was in the process of doing a yacht I wanted to move up a bit in clear coat also look around .

I received the new gun from spray gun world second gun from them they never failed this gun is simply amazing .The most I was impressed is the fan control .

You can see in the photo the shop is now General finish I believe post-cat is over kill for kitchen cabinet what I 'm looking for is flex moving with the wood on site touch ups .I don't kid my self I have to use protect from the fumes

I don't care about the customer there not my friends .I'll do whats right for the job PERIOD that I take deadly serious

So now i need a scheduled [SHAKER DOORS WHITE] for the yacht the uv from the windows bouncing from the water are a concern .I don't want any yellowing just crystal clear white but I don't want scuffing that can happen with latex white paint so I approached General below this what they said

What is the purpose of this request?
doing a boat interior in white want to use Enduro Pigmented Polyurethane then final with Exterior 450 Clear Varnish i need a finish for high humidity and keep paint white Please let me know of better system buying thought wood they told me to contact to find best method

Exterior 450 over any of our whites will give it a slight amber tone.
What would work better would be our Snow White Milk Paint followed by our High Performance Poly. As long as it’s the interior and not get constantly wet you should be ok.





Rob Szwedo
General Finishes (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/www.generalfinishes.com)
T 800-783-6050 F 262-642-4707
2462 Corporate Circle East Troy WI 53120





So I follow the advise I'll use 2 coat of primer first will give a solid white .All cabinet made for the boat will start in few weeks the wood work we have till August

Its degavu in the late 90's did an aircraft interior in white same system using polyester went yellow then pink total nightmare. So this time I'm ready with oil or lacquer this job would be a nightmare

I'll keep posting pictures as the job goes along I encourage other pros to post there project .What helped a lot is doing sign work [asking fro help]they are the most creative in my opion

All above post is my experience

[kevin]

more pictures

[tri4sale]

more pictures

Those look like something out of Star Trek!

[kevin]

I finished the yacht we did 4 bedrooms kitchen etc
I used some of the things i learned here the windows where done with exteria one piece on the cnc they worked out well there where 14 windows .The window are a high moisture area with hot and cold .At first the owners didn't see it my way on a lot of thing but realized water based was the way to go .I didn't have the budget for polyester
The ship will be leaving in a few days for the Bahamas its for sale .It was a great project yes it was stressful i was 7 days a week for a while http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26579&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26580&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26581&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26582&stc=1

[kevin]

They only allow 4 pictures http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26584&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26585&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26586&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26587&stc=1

[kevin]

we used spanish ceader for the top
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26588&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26590&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26591&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26592&stc=1

[Brady Watson]

Wowzers! Nice cat!

Tip top work as always Kevin. Thanks for posting!

-B

[scottp55]

One Heck of a nice "Toy" Kevin!!! :)
With just a "Teeny" bit more work it'd be wheelchair compatible:) :)
Top Notch Kevin...Congrats!
Did you do the butterflied slab table on deck too?
Great Job.
scott

[kevin]

I did the slab it is elm flatten on the bot .Also on page 3 i did the logo on the bot .Scott you could get around on the main deck also I think a yacht this size would be impossible to have full wheelchair access .Thanks for the compliments .Brady its fast 20 knots they can also put 2 more bedroom in the back it was a real learning experience I got lucky
On another note it cost about half a million a year to run captain etc