Sign Guy trying to cut Cabinet Doors [Archive]

David Iannone

03-31-2015, 05:27 PM

One of my Sign customers walked in today and asked me if I could cut out 8 Cabinet doors out of material he will supply, in one piece with the profiles close to the attached pics.

I have a cutter with something close to the pic of the outside edge.
The inside profiles look like router bits #37743 from rockler.com
http://www.rockler.com/freud-97-150-3-piece-door-set

Can these bits be purchased in something I can ramp into the material without the bearing?

Should I just consider setting up a 3D toolpath for the inside detail?

Does anyone already have this 3D profile setup in Aspire for a price? I am new to Aspire and still haven't spent enough time on tutorials yet. I told the customer I could do it and to bring the material.....LOL

Any advise would be appreciated.

Dave

kevin

03-31-2015, 05:42 PM

Before you hurt yourself that is a 5 piece door .There meant for a shaper or rotter table

There is free doors using mdf sheets take a look

My 2 cents stay away it a whole new trade huge learning curve

David Iannone

03-31-2015, 06:29 PM

Thanks Kevin,
I know I am crossing boundaries here and don't know what the heck I'm doing, but I got a Bot and open machine time....

I think I am getting there. In the attached pic is just using endmills, 60 degree v bit, and ballnose bit using profile and pocket toolpaths. Just need to carve the interior down some to look like the sample.

Am I going about it all wrong? It doesn't have to match anything. This is a small cabinet reface job he got and wants me to start doing his CNC cutting going forward. I can catch on fast if he can supply me with enough sheet goods.

Dave

kevin

03-31-2015, 06:44 PM

David
Look at free door post .I used it looks the most realistic for cnc you can do it in Aspire but it gets tricky nesting

I tried there web doesn't seem to be up I think I can find you a copy there is a learning curve

Ger21

03-31-2015, 06:46 PM

There are bit's made for routing MDF doors.
http://www.amanatool.com/products/cnc-insert-router-bits/door-making-cnc-insert-router-bits/mdf-cabinet-door-cnc-insert-router-bits.html

To achieve a similar look to your picture requires multiple bits, and several passes, or a lot of time doing a 3D carving pass.

Kyle Stapleton

03-31-2015, 07:34 PM

I used the bits shown above.
I would just have him look at door web sites to have them make them, unless you plan to do a lot of them because the bits will cost more then the doors you make.

Ajcoholic

03-31-2015, 07:43 PM

Well if you dont have to try and match anything you are going to be a lot happier... lol.. Trying to match a 5 piece cope & stick door will be very time consuming, require many bits and tool changes. Or be painfully slow with a small ball end mill.

For easy faux frame and panel doors from MDF, I have used a few V bits (90 and 120 degree) with the inner profile being made by the shallower 120 dgeree (to represent a raised panel) and the 90 chamfering the outer frame, and use Aspires square corner tool to make the edges crisp VS rounded (which give instantly away the door is machined from MDF). Then a regular end mill to pocket out the inner part.

You can certainly buy plunging profile bits, Ogee, bead and step, etc to give the panel some other profile VS a chamfer but they are not as easy to clean up the inside corners. Unless of course the client doesnt mind just running around the face to profile, and leaving rounded corners. Lots of those doors out there... its just that most think a square corner looks better. And with Aspire, and any angle of V bit, it is easily done.

Andrew

kevin

03-31-2015, 07:47 PM

Seeing a rounded corner looks well okay .But square corners look more natural

bleeth

03-31-2015, 10:15 PM

Ajcoholic

04-01-2015, 03:39 PM

Yep, agree 100%. Ive been making my own doors for 30 yrs. A good power fed shaper, with a coping sled or sliding table, and some good cutters (all I buy now are carbide index insert style - better than brazed IMO).

I have probably $5 to $6K just in my door tooling and that's not a lot - half a dozen rail and panel profiles. But as Dave says I can machine a door in literally minutes once set up. And when you know what you're doing, set up takes a few minutes tops.

But to do this style of door you also need jointer/planer/edge and wide belt sander to make $$ at it.

I make a fair number of doors... but the only ones I do on my CNC are slab type with carved details or the odd MDF paint grade.

David Iannone

04-01-2015, 03:56 PM

David:
A CNC is not the right tool to do that job. Take it from the cabinet guys who have been doing this stuff for years.
After all, just cause I have a really nice little printer is no reason why I should try to make a vinyl wrap for a car, right?
Bottom line-a shaper, molder, and the right cutters (as well as the knowledge on how to use them) knocks that out in minutes and that's why the companies who do that for a living charge all of 12 bucks a square foot in hard select maple ready for finishing in those exact (and very standard) profiles.
E-mail me privately and I will give you several wholesale manufacturers within 150 miles of you that make these things all day long.
On another note, remember that sometimes the customers don't know the right question to ask and your life is much easier if you know how to explain that to them.
Best answer for your client: "Let me recommend a good cabinet guy in the area"
(You did say "any advise")

Thanks Dave...LOL you are right, just because I maybe can do it doesn't mean I belong doing it. But sometimes I am stubborn as a mule and just have to try it. I was hoping for advise from the cabinet guys, and I knew it might not be what I wanted to hear.

Andrew, that's a good idea with the v-bits. I will have to try doing some tool paths using that technique.

This customer is a granite countertop guy. (small shop) he does a little bit of cabinet stuff here and there and buys everything in pieces and assembles. He is talking about having me cut all the cabinet boxes in the future as well. I bought CPP and am still messing with it. He is also interested in some more decorative doors with small 3d reliefs cut into them down the road. I just want to be able to offer a few different designs for him. He will always supply the sheet goods, I cut em, then he assembles and finishes them.

So, it comes down to price now. The attached pics went really well I think. Yes I used cheap plywood for the sample cut to make sure my profiles came out ok, and I did just spray it with hammertone spray paint.......http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.png

Did a two rail sweep in Aspire for the middle part and used a profile bit on the outside. Total cut time was 2hrs.....OUCH. That is with a .125 ballnose, .25 endmill and profile bit. BUT, I think I can tweak the file feeds and speeds and go with a .25 Ballnose and get it to about 45 minutes per door. I come up with $56.25 per door machine charge based on $75 per hr machine rate.

However, based on the prices per sq/ft Dave R. gave the big shops are knocking them out the job would come out at about $24 per door. Size is 20"x12"

I dunno, we will see. Just called him to pickup sample. He will pickup it up tomorrow. Overall it was fun and I definitely learned something. And if nothing else, I might use this profile to redo my kitchen cabinet faces.

Dave

bleeth

04-01-2015, 04:32 PM

Based on your time so far and add to it the huge amount of sanding to make it look good this is a no-win deal.
We cut 3d and 2d patterns into 5 part doors also. I still buy out the door. The cnc is doing what it does best!
Resizing in Aspire for all the different sizes and maintain proper size of stiles, rails, and inner panel profile a kitchen needs is not quick either.

kevin

04-01-2015, 07:05 PM

free doors

David Iannone

04-01-2015, 09:12 PM

free doors

The website link isn't working. I tried to check it out.

Dave

gc3

04-01-2015, 09:52 PM

be smarter to outsource it to a door company near you...

http://gacustomcabinets.com/

for example

David Iannone

04-02-2015, 01:05 AM

last rendering before all 8 doors cut. customer approved price and material should arrive friday.

for now, its the best I can do. why not take a job to fill my machine time? Its sitting idle mostly, and now the toolpaths are done, its just another machine running at the same time to me.

Dave

kevin

04-02-2015, 06:04 AM

The corners look great .But you probable all ready know this there is always the hidden cost of the machine wear and tear .If you have dead time ask yourself why marketing is more critical in your business then mine
Is your time more valuable web site development getting a better ranking Facebook its cheap
Someone who goes to sign guy for cabinet doors is looking for the cheap do you need a customer like that

Brady Watson

04-02-2015, 06:57 AM

I think this is a good exercise - even if it is only one of futility. Part of the long learning curve with business is acknowledging when things are going to be profitable and when you are going to be paying the customer to take it away. This is what the cabinet pros are trying to get across. However, to me, parts is parts and knowing what's possible and the most efficient way to do it is worth understanding with things like this.

Back when I got into this stuff, everybody and their brother were buying these machines to cut out cabinet parts. I didn't want to join/compete with the race to the bottom on price...so I went the other way. Very, very few people (less than 1%) were cutting 3D reliefs - or even knew their machine was capable of it...(back when it was $7500 for 3D CAD/CAM)

It's no different than I tell my customers. If somebody already makes it - don't call me! Go buy it! Mine won't be cheaper!

-B

Mark Owen

04-02-2015, 08:08 AM

For what its worth, i bought the doors for my own kitchen. The wholesale supplier near me can sell me a completed 5 piece door cheaper than I can buy the lumber.
As for mdf doors, I use the Amana bits, Plum Creek mdf, sanding sealer and precat lacquer. The disadvantage with mdf is the weight. Dust will also be an issue without a decent dc.
Imo, not profitable unless you are doing the whole kitchen. The margins are in the slides, hinges, sinks,etc.

Regards
Mark

dmidkiff

04-02-2015, 08:15 AM

What Kevin is trying to say is you can download "free doors". It was written by Bruce Clark and Mike Richards. There is a learning curve but you should be able to work through it in short order. But also said by someone here you will spend more for the bits needed than this job will pay. Hope this is the right link. You might contact Mike Richards. He is a member here and helps when he can.

http://doors-free-doors.software.informer.com/

mark_stief

04-02-2015, 10:19 AM

Dave I'm going to be just the salt on the wound I say go for it true you may not make money the first time around but you will learn something from it and get your name out there and who knows more jobs then slowly add the right tools to do it faster Used machines are cheap and there's getting to be a lot to chose from I've got three new auctions in my email this morning already Have fun with it AND if the customers happy and you're happy who cares what the rest of the world thinks

David Iannone

04-02-2015, 12:29 PM

Thanks Brady and Mark,

I know I am doing something outside of my expertise, but you guys are right. I am having fun with it. I will keep track of my machine time, design time, etc. and see how it goes. This might be the only door job I ever cut (prob not though) It will just be as simple as here is the price per part. If this door job isn't as profitable as I can be cutting signs on the machine I will adjust the part price to where I need it to be on the next job and let the customer know up front.

For me right now it is all about learning new things. I had not even learned how to use the 2 rail sweep in Aspire until the other night struggling through tutorials. I have wanted to cut cabinet doors for years but there was never a sense of urgency. When this little project presented itself I knew being under a little pressure would push me to try it.

I have been fixing the Bot up over the last year with many upgrades that I should have done years ago, and the reasoning is to try to be cutting parts of any kind on the machine. To do this reliably I felt I needed to get it to more of a production machine that if I can find work for it, it will perform as it should.

A cabinet guy coming to a sign guy to have parts cut means nothing to me. If I needed a room in my home painted and a plumber gave me a quote to paint it and the price was right and he did a good job, I would be cool with that.

I am setting up a small sheet metal shop on the other side of my shop with some old machines my father gave me. I plan to have some more fun in the upcoming weeks. Going to setup a jig to cut and weld and paint my own real estate frames. Why would I bore myself with such a task? I enjoy it. I will only make a few dozen the first run, and I will only use them for the signs I sell. I know it sounds ridiculous, but here is my take on this and anything else I can make with MY equipment:

When I show a potential customer around my shop and they see who I am, what I know, and the equipment I use to make what I make I think being able to say "I made that" and they see the quality of whatever part, it helps me to sell a potential high end Vehicle Wrap (for example) or any other high end Sign Project. They at least know I am not some hack that is a fly by night operation.

I have been in business for myself since 1999. Its been a bumpy road. I made more mistakes over the years and got into jobs WAY over my head, but in the end I pulled it off. I have had customers mad at me and I've had to fire a few customers as well. This is all part of the learning curve.

I get up every day and feel lucky to be able to go to my shop and make a living, while still trying new things and thinking of what can I make with my stuff next. And I value this forums input because I have learned a lot and been inspired by the work and help from others here over the years.

Thanks,
Dave

mark_stief

04-02-2015, 02:06 PM

Dave Good for you it isn't always about the money you have to have some fun now and then and if it makes you happy go for it and enjoy yourself

Ajcoholic

04-02-2015, 02:23 PM

I agree - I have done many jobs over the years I would have been better off just saying "no" too, but for various reasons took them on and had to either learn new skills, reinvent something or just take a lot more time than quoted to finish.

LEarning new things is a great part of having your own business. However it is only bad when it cuts into your productive paying work.

barrowj

04-02-2015, 08:09 PM

Many times it is just a way to get your foot in the door for a bigger paying project once you do the "Odd Job" for them. They will see that you can do what you say you can and deliver what they expect or beat their expectations. This is how I have been able to get steady customers, do 1 job for them that may seem to be more trouble than it's worth and if they are happy they will come back for more.

Joe

kevin

04-02-2015, 08:33 PM

Dave
A 5 piece door to a mdf door are night and day.I learned using free doors its an easy program great tutorial Don't get me wrong try it it help me a lot to learn other software.I have not made an mdf door its been a long time .Used free doors for a stair banister last year.
Its a great program for waistcoat molding .I never tried a door in Aspire but tried it in Parts Works very hard to make a door

But I'm curios the bit was round over in your rendering looked mitered .My brain tells me no way in real time that it will look that perfect .I also thought you been around the form long enough to know free doors

PNast

04-03-2015, 06:53 PM

I am not sure, but wouldn't a 1 piece cabinet door warp depending on the material used?

Ajcoholic

04-03-2015, 07:45 PM

I am not sure, but wouldn't a 1 piece cabinet door warp depending on the material used?

Solid wood, more than likely. Thats why most have the wooden slats on the rear.

MDF, no problem. Ive cut some heavy carved doors in MDF and left them unfinished to see if they warp. Not one bit.

David Iannone

04-04-2015, 10:18 PM

Dave
A 5 piece door to a mdf door are night and day.

But I'm curios the bit was round over in your rendering looked mitered .My brain tells me no way in real time that it will look that perfect .I also thought you been around the form long enough to know free doors

Thanks Kevin,
I am not trying to make a 5 piece door on the CNC. Just trying to simulate it. I have never heard of free doors before this thread, an I been around the block a few times.

The bits used to cut the door sample are in the pic. The simulation on the outside profile doesnt match the preview because I am a butcher and have not setup some of my special bits in Aspire tool database yet....LMAO

I will post pics of the finished door panels with final cut time and cut quality. Win, Lose, or Draw.

Dave

David Iannone

04-04-2015, 10:41 PM

David:
A CNC is not the right tool to do that job. Take it from the cabinet guys who have been doing this stuff for years.

After all, just cause I have a really nice little printer is no reason why I should try to make a vinyl wrap for a car, right?
(You did say "any advise")

Thanks Dave,
Just rereading my thread. I gotta ask, what printer you got? If you have a printer capable of printing on cast vinyl rated for vehicle wraps, and a machine to apply laminate to the printed graphics, then yes I suggest you try to print, laminate, and install your own wrap. You will have a blast.

Just like me, I am having fun playing around with my old tool that may help me make a few more bucks in a totally different industry than I am in years down the road.

Dave

David Iannone

04-05-2015, 01:31 AM

If you have dead time ask yourself why marketing is more critical in your business then mine
Is your time more valuable web site development getting a better ranking Facebook its cheap

Someone who goes to sign guy for cabinet doors is looking for the cheap do you need a customer like that

Again I must say many thanks to you Kevin, when I have dead time I lock the door and go fishing.

My home and boat is 2 minutes from my lake's closest boat ramp. ( I couldn't afford on the water property so I got as close as I could.)

My customers pay by the job. Its really simple actually, they email orders and I fill orders and get paid. 1 guy in today's market scraping out a living making signs.

Dave

kevin

04-05-2015, 09:45 AM

Dave
What I mean by down time is Monday to Friday no work. My son is in Hong Kong last year of business school we took a hard look we all like to think where different are work stands out but does it in my case can you go to IKEA and buy the same kitchen. Look a Joe only 3d signs only work hes passionate about he has created a monopoly
There are people here that need to wake up and not let online pass them by this documentary can explain better
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/generation-like/

MDF doors you can make them from time to time I don't it brings my brand down .Right now I only do jobs I'm passionate about not Joe's or Dan's level but trying .

This was web site I made but most business in my are a sleep using yellow pages
http://www.a1glassnl.com/

Ajcoholic

04-05-2015, 12:38 PM

Like most things in my life - I tend not to be moderate, ie, not at one extreme or the other. Others tend to be polarized at one end or the other. Either way, its all good if its what you want.

What I mean is, I can understand Kevin's viewpoint - but I also think that there is certainly a market for ALL sorts of work. MDF doors might seem like "lower end" work to some, but I appreciate, and actually love to see the technology ( both machine and tooling) in action. Tomake a really nice looking MDF door that is nicely lacquered is just as much woodworking to me, as making a true 5 piece wooden door. One might seem more "woodworking" than the other and have a bit of elitism to it - depending upon how you approach your work. Similarly to drawers. Dovetailed wooden boxes are my favourite, but to make a well built, functional melamine drawer, and make money doing so, is still worthwhile to me.

The key is being able to do things efficiently enough, and at the necessary quality level in order to compete with what else is on the market. I invested in an edge bander, and other equipment this past year to goo after work I traditionally never really wanted (melamine) since there is a HUGE demand here in my area for that type of work. I may as well try and grab a piece of that pie. Can one make both melamine/mdf cabinets and also do custom woodworking in mahogany and walnut? Certainly! Does it lower your reputation? I dont think so one bit. If you do good work, people appreciate it and will keep you in business.

My business model has always been to do as wide a variety of woodworking - whatever that might be - and therefore we have been able to stay open, and keep 3 or 4 of us busy even through the rough times.

That being said, if you want to manufacture only "high end" stuff and have the ability to stay busy, thats great. But I will never look down upon the successful businesses that make decent stuff - the shops that do melamine and mdf, wrapped doors etc. The most successful shop here for the past ten years has 10 employees, brings in over a million and a half in yearly sales and all they do is melamine boxes, buy in everything else and are always busy. Its not what I would want my shop to do exclusively, but I appreciate the good business sense of the owner and what he built up from working solo a dozen yrs ago.

There is room in this trade for ALL the work that needs to be done. Does that make sense?

kevin

04-06-2015, 05:31 AM

There my experience not advice

Davo

04-06-2015, 06:09 AM

Whats the typical thickness of the MDF you guys use?

Do yall ever double stack and glue them together?

That pic on the wall is awesome
http://www.kdunphy.com/IMG_4016.JPG

And this one is extremely awesome, whats the material?
http://www.kdunphy.com/IMG_37192.jpg

scottp55

04-06-2015, 07:10 AM

Nice Shaker style Kevin:)
Agree with Davo that Plaque on wall fits in very well!
Can't quite see in pic, but did you make your own hardwood Pulls?
Sorry to digress from thread.
scott

David Iannone

04-06-2015, 02:34 PM

Kevin and Andrew do incredible work and are willing to share their photos, tips and opinions for all of us to learn. I was hoping they would be some who would choose to share thier input in this thread. It is guys like these showing the finished products and their techniques who help us all.

Most of the signs I do are boring and in and out the door extremely fast. I am super organized on the easy sign stuff. But can also take on almost any Sign job just like the next guy. I started at it when I was 15. I just pick and choose my jobs. I don't do outside installs anymore, it is sent out to the Sign guy in my town who has the bucket trucks, etc. I only install what I can pull inside my shop.
I am sharing some of this in the Sign section of the forum. Everything I am doing has been done before. I am not breaking new ground but hope to return the favor and some of the new guys getting into CNC with thier SB to have ideas and not be afraid to try new things.

Customer just dropped off a sheet of 3/4" MDF today. I told him I will cut them tomorrow morning.

Dave

kevin

04-06-2015, 08:28 PM

its 3/4 because you need 35 mil hinges you can't use face frame hinges with 1/2 screws they won't hold

The first picture is of there boat used African mahoney was harry carved great

The second one did not make the kitchen just the concrete work the side panel is all concrete stained used a form .the customer gave me freedom to dress up there kitchen.Also you can see in the sink area a tree for draining dishes .All work done on the bot

Scott I did not make the pulls but if you look at the first kitchen on Facebook i do have a new line of handle they really changed the look of my work

Go Dave go

Davo

04-07-2015, 07:03 AM

I've love to know the feed rates and bits used to pull off 3D in concrete

David Iannone

04-07-2015, 05:48 PM

I had some rush jobs come up in front of cutting out all the doors. I did manage to cut one out though using a 1/4" ballnose instead of 1/8" 45 minutes to cut one door now. But the one in the pic is messed up. I didn't realize the corners of the MDF weren't held down totally flat by the vac. (rookie mistake) The outside profile ogee bit varies slightly in depth on the high corner.

BUT, I am thrilled to death with it. Will cut the rest out tomorrow. I told him they were $35 each. He supplies material. SO, it does not measure up to what I want to make hourly on the Bot. However, I am going to try next what Andrew suggested with V-bits. I could cut them out quickly and I think $35 per that size door in 15 minutes works. Now that I know I can do it, gotta make samples as Dr. Crumley has told us.

After this little project I will let him know the new price structure.

I am going to invest in a few specialty profile bits also. Some samples of a $50 3-d relief cut into the center of a supplied door that takes 30 min to machine sounds about right to me.

Still learning, but at least I am getting paid something to learn for my first try right? Machine is running in back room while I work in office. (I keep a close eye on it) about to put a camera on it next.

Also, last pic is of a little more cleaned up Bot. Not done organizing it yet. New control CPU on the way, then all wires will be tidied up. Am planning on upgrading to hardened rails this summer. Dad and I are gonna take on the project and also stiffen up the gantry. Got to get rid of that little bit of chatter.

Dave

kevin

04-07-2015, 06:24 PM

Dave looks good 35 a door is a good price .With free doors you can do a sheet full of doors in 20 minutes
to answer the question i did mill concrete on the bot i don't think the bot could handle it .I made a negative carving out of mdf used plastic paint yes solvent because i learned the hard way water-base breaks down

David Iannone

04-13-2015, 04:27 PM

Funny thing.......I finished the doors up Friday. I had been communicating with customer via text message letting him know I ran behind a little on the project. (had some other rush bread and butter jobs come in, but he didn't know that.) Sent progress photos. When I called him Friday to pickup, his customer is pissed cause job is late. Wow.....I said I didn't know there was a "deadline" or I would not have taken the project on since he knew this was my first shot at cabinet doors.

So it seems the doors now belong to me. My best guess is he must have botched up the rest of his job, and obviously didn't properly plan. What a jackleg.

The good news is I had the machine running while I was doing other work in the office. But most of all I learned something new and it cost my time. Material was his. (Although my time was worth a ****load more than that MDF)

Swing and a miss on this job.

But lemons into lemonade I think......Going to cut out some cabinet boxes to match these doors and make some nice tool storage cabinets out of them. (now I have to learn to layout a cabinet box.)

Just wanted to let the thread know the final result.

Dave