Black box vs large blower/vac

[Kyle Stapleton]

Moving to a new shop so it is time to update some tool so it gets wired right.

I was planning on getting a store made Black box hurricane (2,500 shipped) or a used blower/vac and putting the Feins to work cleaning the shop.

We have 3 phase.

Thanks,

[David Iannone]

Sounds like a good plan. One day I hope to be able to upgrade to the Hurricane.

When do you make the move?

Dave

[pkirby]

I would recommend buying the Hurricane. Because my cheapness gets the best of me sometimes, I built Gary's first design by myself but it took quite a bit of time. I would definitely buy his Hurricane version if I had to do it over again.

[Kyle Stapleton]

Thanks, I think that is what we will be doing.

[Ken Sully]

Kyle
Are you going to sell the current vac you and Scott built?

[Ajcoholic]

Why rule out a good used regen vac? I picked up that German made 10hp unit for under a grand.

I know brand new would cost substantially more but there are a lot of used units in the USA. Look on used equipment dealer sites.

[Kyle Stapleton]

Ken, will be putting the feins to work cleaning the shop.
Andrew, I have been looking but have been coming up empty. So if you have any leads please let me know.

[danhamm]

have 2- 3 phase 2.2 kw regens fom china,I ordered 220 single phase they sent 3 phase, they resent the order and I paid he shipping is all.

If your interested I can supply pictures and price not expensive. PM me.

[Kyle Stapleton]

What are the specs?

[mark_stief]

Kyle Some sites are EX-factory RT-machinery IRS Auctions Jeez just do a search for vacuum pumps and you'll be busy all day looking

[Ajcoholic]

What are the specs?

2.2 kW = 3 hp.

For your 5x8 bed I would be looking at at least 10 HP minimum for larger parts, and more like 15 to 20 HP.

Based upon my own experience with my 4x4 bed and a 10 HP blower (which is very similar to the specs claimed by the 4 vac black box Hurricane unit) I can hold even pretty small parts very well.

If I were looking at a 4x8 or 5x8 bed I would want to double what I have now. A pair of 10 HP units would be nice, using only both when you are cutting the whole bed.

As stated, do a search for used regen vac, you will get a LOT of units. Or, contact some industrial woodworking machinery companies and they should be able to steer you in the right direction. Tons on ebay as well.

I know everyone's opinions differ but if you have the ability, to run the industrial vac unit why not?

I remember speaking to the fellow that sells these Hurricane units last year, when I was exploring my vacuum table setup, and even he stated that they are mainly for those who either cant afford, or cannot run (due to power constraints) a large multi-HP blower. But while a blower is made to run continuously for many years without service, the vac motors just are not going to last nearly as long.

[Kyle Stapleton]

Mark, I have looked at all the used site and can not find anything in the 2,500.00 price range. (On eBay but most have not specs listed and it is a little over my head)
If anyone knows of one please let me know.
I will be buying in May.

Thanks,

[Ajcoholic]

Mark, I have looked at all the used site and can not find anything in the 2,500.00 price range. (On eBay but most have not specs listed and it is a little over my head)
If anyone knows of one please let me know.
I will be buying in May.

Thanks,

Kyle,
In my research, I found that across the brands, although some differences will be seen in specs, you can pretty much generalize the CFM and vacuum force as equal with HP rating. Looking at the basic single stage ring compressor.

Here are a few...

http://www.jmindustrial.com/Details.aspx?Item=12966

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMETEK-10-HP-VACUUM-Pump-BLOWER-EN85BD90WL-/251391236063?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8815d7df

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VFC8004A-7W-Fuji-Regenerative-Blower-10-hp-23-11-5-amps-200-230-460-Volts-/150986272701?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23277bafbd

http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/Dayton/regenerative_blower/regenerative_blower.htm

The last link is where I purchased my vacuum booster and filter. They sell a 10 HP Fuji regen vac for just over $2500. Similar specs to the Elmo Rietschle I purchased used.

If you do a search on "ring compressor", "regen blower/vac", "regenerative blower" etc you will get a ton of links. Lots used, lots new. Pricing all over the place.

I remember seeing a lot of used Fuji's for decent pricing well under $2K. Some closer to a grand.

Good luck - and no matter what you choose. I just thought I'd throw this out there as it is where I was exactly a year ago.

[danhamm]

AJCoholic, I can see why some folks get pissed with you, your sum total of experience is not that great that gives you the right to comment on others systems.
2- 3hp in series = 6hp which runs my table just fine.
I will bet you are using low density spoil board that provides no back pressure what so ever, so you would need all the flow of a 10hp system to cover the "Whole" 4x4 table you have. ever heard of the word "ego".

sure Nancy, do it I couldn't care less.

[mark_stief]

Wow Didn't see that coming

[bleeth]

I have been using a single 7.5HP regen blower to hold down for years.I have a 4 x 8 full size table with 8 zones controlled by knife valves and 2" piping. The blower is around 20 feet of piping from the table so it blows out the door of the shop (we don't need the heat). From the table there are 3 90 degree turns in the pipe which reduces strength somewhat, besides several angles under the table. Grooves in the plenum are 1/2" wide x 3/8" deep and each zone has a series of them from 23" square down to around 6" square with connecting grooves. (all that is to give an idea of "stored air volume" which helps the system)
I not only cut larger cabinet parts, but also many small frames for desk walls (like 3 1/2"-5" x 28-40" that have 1 1/2" x 4" slots cut out of them for running wire through. I have also cut pieces smaller than a zone or combined zones by laying down so other stock covering the zone area not covered by my project piece.
I rarely have a hold down problem. I bought it from a guy who thought he needed to upgrade and got a much bigger unit. Afterward he told me he didn't really get that much improvement in holding power.
I believe strongly in getting enough power to do the job, as I pointed out in your post about the compressor, and often do when people ask about routers/vs spindles. But I also don't see any reason why someone should need 15-20HP for a 5 x 8 table (although if the price is right, why not). The problem with some units is not the HP, it is the volume of air they move. If it is more of a high pressure/low volume rig then it is not suitable for a full table hold down where parts will be cut through. Learning to maximize cutting strategy for your vacuum so you are losing the least vacuum when doing your most aggressive through cuts is a big part of it as well.Of course, the plenum is sealed as well as the edges of it and the spoilboard. I use a couple coats of shellac.

[Ajcoholic]

AJCoholic, I can see why some folks get pissed with you, your sum total of experience is not that great that gives you the right to comment on others systems.
2- 3hp in series = 6hp which runs my table just fine.
I will bet you are using low density spoil board that provides no back pressure what so ever, so you would need all the flow of a 10hp system to cover the "Whole" 4x4 table you have. ever heard of the word "ego".

sure Nancy, do it I couldn't care less.

Ive been a member here for nearly 4 years, and I dont believe I have ever upset anyone as you state.

I am very honest and clear in my experiences, and I can only comment on what I have personally experienced myself. With the vacuum stuff, everyone's expectations will be different. I have done a lot of research and you will get everything from 5 HP is enough to 40 HP isnt.

I think I am WELL within my right as a member here to voice my own opinion. The fellow asked what 2.2kW equated to and I said 3 HP. If that bugs you, not much I can do about that.

if and when I decide to go larger to a 4x8 or 5x8 table, I will probably get a larger unit. If Dave says 7.5 HP is enough for him, I appreciate and respect that. If two 3 HP pumps are good for you, thats great. If I say I think more HP is better, than again, thats my opinion and you should respect that as well.

In the end, I hope by getting a range of experiences and differing answers the OP can determine what will be the best bang for his buck and the main thing is that whatever he decided to use will work.

No need to get worked up.

PS I use plain old cabinet grade MDF made here in Ontario for my spoil board. No light weight stuff is available here. I use what I can get.

[knight_toolworks]

just to make things more interesting on my 4x8 most of the time my 2 220 black box vans are ok. I seldom have parts come loose usually only when they are pretty small and i have other methods of dealing with it. but would like a vac setup that is more durable I think I am lucky to get a year out of a set of motors. though I did buy new brushes to test that out next time I need to change them. so something in the 3hp range that will do as well?

[knight_toolworks]

I think this guy would work. I can't remember how many cfms/ two of the black box motors pulls http://www.amazon.com/Regenerative-Blower-Depot-1Phase-220V-240V/dp/B00P2U8SSY/ref=sr_1_47?ie=UTF8&qid=1429071676&sr=8-47&keywords=Regenerative+Blower it is quiet and seems the only good choice that runs on 1 phase.

[tlempicke]

AJCoholic, I can see why some folks get pissed with you, your sum total of experience is not that great that gives you the right to comment on others systems.
2- 3hp in series = 6hp which runs my table just fine.
I will bet you are using low density spoil board that provides no back pressure what so ever, so you would need all the flow of a 10hp system to cover the "Whole" 4x4 table you have. ever heard of the word "ego".

sure Nancy, do it I couldn't care less.

Apparently your Momma never taught you much about manners. Thankfully there is an IGNORE list on this forum, which until now I have never hd to use.