Stealing patterns

[genek]

I JUST SENT A COMPANY A NASTY LETTER FOR HAVING ME TO DESIGN AND MAKE SOMETHING FOR THEM. THEY HAVE TRIED TO STEAL MY PATTERN, THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, I WILL GO AFTER THAT BEER COMPANY AND ANYONE THAT PRODUCES MY PATTERN.

HERE IS THE LETTER I JUST SENT TO THEM,.

I AM VERY TEED OFF OVER THIS...

The problem I have is with section 15 of your agreement. I do not give up my rights to my designs, patterns or anything. I have cc my attorney in this. With that clause attached as far as I am concerned the deal is off. You are to return my Prototype forthwith, You do not have my permission to use, share or do anything with the pattern, any pictures or drawing that has been sent to you. You are to destroy all drawings and pictures You do not have the right to manufacture or have manufactured my design of the beer tasting caddy, flat, tray or any name you would put or assign to my design.


I find it very disturbing that a company would ask someone to design something then try to steal that design with the clause you inserted in your agreement. The fact that You sent it with a P.O. with out mentioning that there was an agreement attached is not right. That document is not a legal binding document, I did not sign nor will I sign or agree to its terms. I can make way more money making my design and selling than what you ordered.

[David Iannone]

That is horrible Eugene. Sometimes the big companies try to act like they have big muscles. You will prevail in the end.

[Sk8MFG]

Did they commission you to design and develop a product for them?

[MogulTx]

I frequently have companies tell me that any design work or concept work that I do is "work for hire"... I specifically inform customers that any design work that we do is OUR IP (Intellectual Property) and remains our property unless they are willing to pay us for our design work. (The rate would be high, for sure- and would be quoted separately.) The sale to them gives them a one-time license for the product sold, NOT an ownership in or control or rights to our designs in any way.... You HAVE TO READ THE CONTRACTS AND TERMS AND CONDITIONS that these sneaky, gnarly little lawyers puke out. They steal with their pens... Good for you that you caught it without signing the document. Don't relent. Keep your ideas. They belong to you.

[tri4sale]

You should have a contract up front before any design work stating that design work is property of designer and not company hiring, a lot of people assume that if they hire you to design something it's their design to do with as they please. Have to put everything in writing up front nowadays!

Not a lawyer, but one once told me that as an independent contractor any work I design I have the rights too unless it is stated in writing otherwise.

[gundog]

I make boat parts for fishing boats many of my designs have been copied I have patents on 2 products but with about 60 products I make I can't afford to patent them all. People have no scruples and don't care how much time and money you have in your designs. I purposely don't post my work on sites like this because I don't need to show people how to make my stuff that have machines that can copy my work. I remember a guy on here that showed off all his signs and talked about the money he made, then one day someone started copping his signs and he got upset I thought to myself what did you expect? Some people buy these machines with no idea what they are going to make with them so they look to see what other folks are making with them to make money. My .02

Mike

[harryball]

I had a guy buy one of our bat house kits... then call to complain that it was so complex there was no way he could copy it. I just said, "That's the point." He was actually upset because the product he bought was not something he could use as a template to make his own by hand AND he actually CALLED me to complain about it. :confused:

After reading this thread, I may add a clause in the manual that states the design is proprietary and they don't have permission to copy it etc...

/RB

[genek]

Most think that they can buy a product trace or re-draw the product and it is theirs, that is simple not the case.

copyright laws require a 40% change in the design, Patent laws are less but the overall look is what gets most. These laws are very hard to understand. One can lose everything they own in a heart beat over patent and copyrights if one is not careful.

[genek]

I had some products like what they wanted out for display.. One of their Reps asked if I could add a grove in the wood for a card which was easy and I said that I could. I made several samples and sent them to them. They liked it and ordered then the agreement showed up.

[Davo]

How does copyright work for tools..etc?

You would think craftsman would sue all other brands since tools are all almost 100% the same design....screw drivers, sockets, wrenches..etc.

[tri4sale]

How does copyright work for tools..etc?

You would think craftsman would sue all other brands since tools are all almost 100% the same design....screw drivers, sockets, wrenches..etc.



Copyright protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works, such as poetry, novels, movies, photographs, songs, computer software, and architecture.
Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, domain names, or short phrases. In some cases these things may be protected as trademarks. Copyright also does not protect ideas, concepts, systems, or methods of doing something, although it may protect the way these things are expressed. Reference: www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html (http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html)

I believe tools would be more a patent item, not copyright. Most tools sold by Craftsman would fall under prior art / public domain and not be patentable and most have been around much longer than Craftsman.

[Burkhardt]

Not knowing Eugene's customer or his intentions, I would not discount the possibility that somebody just took a boilerplate contract or copied one they had used before without reading and adapting. Or maybe they used it for an actual contract design before and nobody noticed the difference.

But whatever the reason, it shows that it pays to review the legalese detail.

BTW, experienced IP lawyers from the major firms in our area are about $400-500 per hour. They charge us for every minute of phone call and probably when they dream about our company at night.

[coryatjohn]

In a previous life I worked as a consultant to many large companies. They always hit me with the NDA requirement. I always fired back with the "I won't work with an NDA." and 99 times out of 100, they just changed the contract. Basically, if they want to work with you, they will change the boilerplate contract if you're reasonable. If the want to screw you, they won't.

[khaos]

You should Harry. The money from your designs that go to improve the habitat is where the value is. Let alone the physical habitat your designs provide.

[MogulTx]

I have found that John is pretty "spot on" on this. If they FORCE these terms on you - it is because they intend to hold you to them- and stick it to you.

I get a lot of BIG companies telling me that my work is "work for hire" and that any inventions, process improvements, new ideas, etc.,etc.,etc. that we come up with during the manufacture of their product belong to them... And I tell them "No. I won't work under that restriction. You supply me a print and I build to print. Anything I come up with is mine. My processes are proprietary to me." I have had a few decline to accept this- and I have walked away. I had one that agreed- found out the basis of one very specific vendor and process that I used to make their product work- and claimed to have been associated with that vendor previously. They went around us and went to that vendor. To my great satisfaction, their other supplier, with this help, could not complete the projects satisfactorily. They (the customer) are a major corporation. I could have fought them- but it would have cost MANY 10's of thousands and several years. What I am concerned about is that their integrity is already showing that it is compromised and they could just as easily steal some of the direct IP that only exists in my main business... Direct IP that we had to expose them to in order to prove our claims about quality and performance. If they do that, there will be some problems...

If it is in writing and it would cause you heartburn if they enforce it, then DON'T SIGN. Modify the contract. Negotiate. Do NOT give in!

[paul_z]

I had a company present similar terms and I replied that I would agree with the terms ... however ... the cost for my design time has been changed to $1000/hr. The claim was removed.

Paul Z

[David Iannone]

I purposely don't post my work on sites like this because I don't need to show people how to make my stuff that have machines that can copy my work. I remember a guy on here that showed off all his signs and talked about the money he made, then one day someone started copping his signs and he got upset I thought to myself what did you expect?

Mike

Hi Mike,

First off let me say I wish you would post more of your work here. I have looked on your website and seen your product, looks great. I don't think you have a lot to worry about (imo). If someone was such an assmonkey to want to copy you directly and resell I suppose they could buy one of your products and roll the dice trying to dismantle and copy it right?

Look at this post by Andrew Coholic:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?21403-another-chair-project-and-a-new-tool
Just cause the pics and descriptions are there doesn't mean anyone could just copy. As a matter of fact Andrew actually helped a fellow on here with the profile he does in aspire cause the guy wanted to make chairs too.

Look at my Post:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?21178-Wholesale-cheap-vinyl-signs-for-tommorrow
Dime a dozen signs I sell on ebay. Many years ago a wise man once told me there is enough business out there for all of us. I wouldn't mind helping anyone who cared to try what I am up to now a days.

Look at Joe Cumley post:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?20971-Bringing-old-signs-back-to-life
Just cause the steps are laid out doesn't mean anyone reading could do what Joe does.

The copy cats are everywhere, but what I am trying to say is just cause they can copy it means nothing. In my opinion it is just as hard to find potential customers as it is to make the product.

I am not sure who was the guy making signs that got mad because he got copied, but maybe the type of signs he was doing were something already being done by people years before he got a CNC? Or was he breaking new ground with a new type of sign no one had ever done before?

Most of ALL, look at Eugene, he continues to help folks who want to get into his industry and sell wholesale. Perfect example of "there is enough business out there for all of us".

Just my 2 cents worth.

Mike, this isn't pointed at you so don't take it that way. Actually I want to build a cleaning station and put it on the side of my building at home to clean my fish. I do a lot of fishing on West Point Lake. Do you mind sharing the PVC material you use on your marine cutting tables? I would like to do it right the first time.

Dave

[kevin]

Copy is a gray area did you originally invented the spoon or did you copy .Where all influenced by design of some else its different if some one take picture from your web site say they made it.
I had designer say in a magazine article that here people made my island. I complained read below


Dear,
I just had the pleasure of reading the most recent issue of --------- magazine, I am blown away by the amount of local talent in the design and construction space in the province.
However while reading the “5 looks to love” section I was surprised at what I saw: The Rustic Modern piece, which highlights ------------ involvement in a kitchen/living space, was unsettling as it contained much of our work, however we never received any type of credit mentioned within the article.
The island which was featured in the magazine, the one which has three different levels, was not only not -------------, but she had little to no involvement with the entire project. We were hired and dealt primarily with the customer on this project,--------- brought us an idea based off a piece of furniture she had seen in a magazine, afterwards we designed, produced, and installed the piece in the home with no involvement from ------.
It is unsettling that the article, which although we feel is a compelling piece which touches on some key points in the design world, gives us no credit at KD Custom Woodworking, even though all other articles in the segment credit around four or five other artists involved with projects. Within the article there are around seven photos of the living area, of these five contain our work, with no mention of our business, and conversely the notion which is conveyed is that --------- was the creative mind behind our pieces.
I know that yourself and staff understand the complexity involved in putting together a kitchen/living space, and thus the extensive personal required, and we are sure this was just a minor oversight. However the issue that our work is being credited to another designer troubles us, and we would like to hear back from yourself on what we can do about this, feel free to email me back on this address or call at 709-596-8303.
We appreciate your time,
Sincerely,
Kevin Dunphy

No lawyer was involved my work was featured in next issue I WON .This is not advise be carefully how you handle it make it work to your advantage .The internet is a great tool for the little guy

[Ajcoholic]

Hi Mike,

First off let me say I wish you would post more of your work here. I have looked on your website and seen your product, looks great. I don't think you have a lot to worry about (imo). If someone was such an assmonkey to want to copy you directly and resell I suppose they could buy one of your products and roll the dice trying to dismantle and copy it right?

Look at this post by Andrew Coholic:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?21403-another-chair-project-and-a-new-tool
Just cause the pics and descriptions are there doesn't mean anyone could just copy. As a matter of fact Andrew actually helped a fellow on here with the profile he does in aspire cause the guy wanted to make chairs too.

Look at my Post:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?21178-Wholesale-cheap-vinyl-signs-for-tommorrow
Dime a dozen signs I sell on ebay. Many years ago a wise man once told me there is enough business out there for all of us. I wouldn't mind helping anyone who cared to try what I am up to now a days.

Look at Joe Cumley post:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?20971-Bringing-old-signs-back-to-life
Just cause the steps are laid out doesn't mean anyone reading could do what Joe does.

The copy cats are everywhere, but what I am trying to say is just cause they can copy it means nothing. In my opinion it is just as hard to find potential customers as it is to make the product.

I am not sure who was the guy making signs that got mad because he got copied, but maybe the type of signs he was doing were something already being done by people years before he got a CNC? Or was he breaking new ground with a new type of sign no one had ever done before?

Most of ALL, look at Eugene, he continues to help folks who want to get into his industry and sell wholesale. Perfect example of "there is enough business out there for all of us".

Just my 2 cents worth.

Mike, this isn't pointed at you so don't take it that way. Actually I want to build a cleaning station and put it on the side of my building at home to clean my fish. I do a lot of fishing on West Point Lake. Do you mind sharing the PVC material you use on your marine cutting tables? I would like to do it right the first time.

Dave


Dave,
I actually sent a guy the Aspire files for that stool the other day.

Since 99% of my work is for the local area (say within 100 miles) and there aren't any other general purpose woodworking shops like mine around here, I dont mind sharing everything I know (suppliers, info in general, etc). If someone opened up a wood shop next door I might be a little more weary of giving all my ideas away... but with the way my business works its not an issue.

With others who do a lot of their selling (of the same product, repeatedly, in a more retail like setting) I would be a lot more carfeul of sharing not only designs but also suppliers, construction methods etc. As when you start dealing on line and shipping stuff, you can have a competitor anywhere.

That being said, I have tried to help steer other guys who tried to start a woodworking business around here, in the right direction. Not too long ago I saw a few guys trying to start a cabinet business who were buying materials and hardware retail. I tild them where to get set up for wholesale purchasing etc. It is not my style to try and see other guys learn things the hard way. But again, if they came to me and said "I want to make exactly what you are making, and take work away from you" I might think of it a little differently.

Luckily where I live there is a fairly high demand for custom cabinetry, furniture and other woodwork - and very few places that can or will do it. So the guys who are in business tend to be friendly and helpful, rather than the opposite.

[genek]

This is the way I look at it. I can only service so many stores, I can only make so much product. I do not worry about competition, if you look at my product, then go look At Berea Colleges product, and other sites here in Kentucky you will find that they have for sale some of the same product that I make. ( I even make product for them to sale that is actually my product.) I make product for other companies to sale as there own. There are at least 7 people that I have shared my files with to help them get started just here in Kentucky. I have at least one person that I am mentoring each year, As their work reaches a point that I know that it is good, I take their product and sale it to my customers or introduce their product to my customers. I have a person that I am mentoring now. I have brought him in less than six months from starving to now he is ready to start doing heavy production and has Made more money in this six months than he had made in the past two years. I offered to help others here on shop bot by allowing them to sale on my web site. I have shared my files on here. I don't mind giving them to people that are in need of help, what does tee me off is when some one tries to steal it. Ask me... most would get a surprise .

I have been working on getting a building that is not out in the boone docks as my shop is so that I can have people come to my shop and learn to do production runs, learn to make product like mine so they can make a living. Joe Crumbly is a wonderful Sign Maker, Do I make as money as he does, probably not, However one can make a decent living with the desk top, a buddy like mine or a standard shop bot or any cnc; doing what I Do, Most fail due to not know how to find customers and to get customers. When I get off my butt and quit trying to do it by myself, and do a kickstarter for the building I can make that happen. I want a place that shop bot, aspire, artcam or who ever would like to have a place to come and have classes that is close to the center of the U.S. they can.

[gundog]

Mike, this isn't pointed at you so don't take it that way. Actually I want to build a cleaning station and put it on the side of my building at home to clean my fish. I do a lot of fishing on West Point Lake. Do you mind sharing the PVC material you use on your marine cutting tables? I would like to do it right the first time.

Dave

I don't take offense at all and I am always happy to help people I use Seaboard by Vicom or Starboard by King for all my tables. When I started I used standard HDPE cutting board material but it is not UV stabilized and it warps more than the marine boards.

I have many of my designs copied locally. I have built a small niche business building things no one else builds I like it that way it allows me to set the price. I usually go way past the normal in my designs trying to make them very unique. I have folks call me from all over the US and a few from abroad saying they have never seen the stuff I offer. They are right I start fresh with my designs and build stuff I don't see other people making.

I don't have near the artistic and wood working talent that some of you have and I marvel at the work displayed on here by folks like Andrew and Joe Crumley and many others but those are 2 names that come to mind. I for the most part I make mechanical objects from aluminum & plastic for the Sport fishing industry. It is hard to make things that fall in a price point people will buy it is easy to make stuff people want but hitting the right price point to sell to companies that retail these items is not easy. I have 2 US patents and both have been copied we are dealing with 1 right now with an ex employee that has infringed on my latest patent coping stuff he learned from me how to make. I am now very careful who I hire and what I let them learn. I feel it is less of a threat to a master wood worker or sign maker to be copied I can look at all of these fine works produced by folks on here and know I do not possess the talent to reproduce the stuff they build or create. My stuff being mostly mechanical type objects are much easier to reproduce or at least that is how I see it.

Mike

[genek]

I don't take offense at all and I am always happy to help people I use Seaboard by Vicom or Starboard by King for all my tables. When I started I used standard HDPE cutting board material but it is not UV stabilized and it warps more than the marine boards.

I have many of my designs copied locally. I have built a small niche business building things no one else builds I like it that way it allows me to set the price. I usually go way past the normal in my designs trying to make them very unique. I have folks call me from all over the US and a few from abroad saying they have never seen the stuff I offer. They are right I start fresh with my designs and build stuff I don't see other people making.

I don't have near the artistic and wood working talent that some of you have and I marvel at the work displayed on here by folks like Andrew and Joe Crumley and many others but those are 2 names that come to mind. I for the most part I make mechanical objects from aluminum & plastic for the Sport fishing industry. It is hard to make things that fall in a price point people will buy it is easy to make stuff people want but hitting the right price point to sell to companies that retail these items is not easy. I have 2 US patents and both have been copied we are dealing with 1 right now with an ex employee that has infringed on my latest patent coping stuff he learned from me how to make. I am now very careful who I hire and what I let them learn. I feel it is less of a threat to a master wood worker or sign maker to be copied I can look at all of these fine works produced by folks on here and know I do not possess the talent to reproduce the stuff they build or create. My stuff being mostly mechanical type objects are much easier to reproduce or at least that is how I see it.

Mike

Mike one way to do new employee's is to make them sign a non compete clause. Stating that they will not compete against you... Talk to your attorney,, he can write it in a way,, that they can not even go work for a competitor.

You have the talent you just do not give yourself the chance to see it.