How do you come up with quotes?

[wespor]

Been missing from these forums for a while. I have a Desktop and do mostly my own work, products and what not. I'm not very familiar with custom work and services. A business relation of mine recently asked me for some quotes and I'm having trouble coming up with them.

First was an asymmetrical circle cut out of 1.5" maple, roughly 4" in diameter. Simply enough job but she wants quotes for lots of 50 at a time, up to 500 total.

Second is 5 of these 11" star shaped trophies out of .5" maple, also seemingly simple enough.

Without having the files yet, how could/should I go about coming up with quotes? I can't make the estimates off of experience very well.

[Ajcoholic]

Been missing from these forums for a while. I have a Desktop and do mostly my own work, products and what not. I'm not very familiar with custom work and services. A business relation of mine recently asked me for some quotes and I'm having trouble coming up with them.

First was an asymmetrical circle cut out of 1.5" maple, roughly 4" in diameter. Simply enough job but she wants quotes for lots of 50 at a time, up to 500 total.

Second is 5 of these 11" star shaped trophies out of .5" maple, also seemingly simple enough.

Without having the files yet, how could/should I go about coming up with quotes? I can't make the estimates off of experience very well.

All my shop work (no matter what it is) is charged out at $70/hr plus materials. I mark up my materials (wood, hardware, etc) 60%.

To estimate time, you really need to at least draw up a similar sized circle or star and see how long it would take to cut. Then add prep time, if you are milling your own stock - or at least handling to load and unload, clean up etc.

[MogulTx]

Having bid custom jobs for many years ( at least 25 now) I would tell you not to provide anything more than a rough order of magnitude ( ROM) pricing until you have the drawing, and specs! Please. You can't get TOO terribly hurt on small projects most of the time---- but 500 of them? Yeah. You can probably get hit between the eyes.

[Ajcoholic]

Having bid custom jobs for many years ( at least 25 now) I would tell you not to provide anything more than a rough order of magnitude ( ROM) pricing until you have the drawing, and specs! Please. You can't get TOO terribly hurt on small projects most of the time---- but 500 of them? Yeah. You can probably get hit between the eyes.

Sure.. even a minute per unit off is possibly a whole day's labour. No one wants to "donate" a days labour for free! lol

When I am doing anything in multiples, I often do a run of half a dozen or a dozen to guage a more accurate costing.

Even today (family is out of town so I worked this morning) I timed myself how long it took me to machine 30 dovetailed drawer boxes. Both per unit and for the whole job. I remember this and use it for future costing.

Ive also been estimating for 21 years now, and I will say - in the custom woodworking business, it is a never ending learning/refining process. I do base new jobs on previous work - and the more info you gather the better.

One thing I learned - especially for jobs that have lots of units... you HAVE to include time for cleaning up afterwards, extra time for material handling, etc. Just moving things around, etc and getting things ready for the next job should be costed out in the current job. It is easy to overlook that stuff and just cost time based on when the machine is running.

[MogulTx]

Completely agree with you, Andrew.

All of it adds up and can cost. ( I rarely have made a mistake to the "good side"!)

And I have not perfected the time estimator on my set up- so I too, would rely on a prototype to really nail down the times.

[coryatjohn]

I don't do anything for pay with my SB but I did work for 25 years as a consultant and custom software engineer.

I had a very simple method for coming up with quotes:

Method A: Time and materials quote. Just charged for time and materials without any padding.

Method B: Fixed quote: Best maximum estimate of time and materials and then doubled it.

If a customer asked what I thought about how long a project would take in "Method A" (non-binding estimate) I would tell them my best maximum estimate and then multiply it by 160%. I call this the "Scotty principle." Scotty, from "Star Trek" would always tell Captain Kirk that it would take X time to fix the problem, then Kirk would say "I need it in X/20." Of course Scotty would come through and do it in the nick of time. By quoting a time period way above what your maximum estimate is, you always come in under budget and on time. It is far better to shock a potential customer and have them run away then it is to come in way over budget and late. Scotty never was late. He never went over budget. The Scotty principle is the way to guarantee you'll make money on any particular project.

[scottp55]

Weston,
In addition to all the good advice above, I wouldn't quote anything until I had made a batch of the circles(keeping careful track of ALL times from start to finish)and making SURE that your idea of what they want is the same as their idea of the finished product!
Nothing like finding out "Oh..I thought they would have a smoother edge/radiused edge/no mill marks/all identical/ad infinitum" Afterwords.
Nesting efficiently,and jigging for fast swap out, and sanding blanks to grit they want BEFORE cutting out the small pieces so you only have to sand edges would be important, but maybe do first batch without the jig/pre-sanding to leave an additional gravy/fudge factor.
Sanding/finishing time can bite you in the butt if you haven't actually done a batch.
Maybe also get a good idea of their lead time expectations as well(and check your hardwood supplier to see how often they get 8/4 in?(nothing like getting the job and finding out they're down to culls and next shipment is 2 weeks away). You going S2S or S4S? Or planing/dimensioning yourself?
Having one good edge jointed makes a large difference if jigging against a fence.

[khaos]

I would like to add that I use a psp method that is ongoing to estimate software. This method could be extremely useful for ANY type of estimation.

Basically get a notebook. Start putting your projects in with details estimate your time and materials. After you finish the job put the actuals. The next time you do a similar job you can use the last actual time to inform your new estimate. Keep doing it and as you progress you will see your estimates get very close to your actuals. This logging process really is paramount to getting estimates locked in.

IMHO: the logging and referring back is the key. Leave room for a table of contents in the front.

There is a lot more that is relevant to software and a bit that seems to be fluff and support a bunch of seminars.
If you care, read more ... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_software_process)

[ken_rychlik]

Quite often, I cut a sample. I do this both to make sure they are happy with the quality and I get my time estimate. The the pricing is like, $5 dollars each for less than 50,,, $4.50 each for 51-200,, $4.00 each for orders over 200. People get scared with an hourly rate. They want to know what their cost will be per unit. Do your own math on hourly rate that you feel comfortable with and after cutting a sample, you can give a solid quote per unit without telling them how much you want to make per hr. Include bits, electricity, set up, clean up, and trash haul off. It all takes time and you don't want to give away time. I don't mind giving away the sample to keep my butt covered for larger jobs. I carve "sample" and my name and number into it.

[chiloquinruss]

The only thing I would add to the chorus here is beware of the 500 pricing customer who will take 10 now and then "I'll be back"! Setup time and take down time and artwork time remains the same whether you cut 1 or a 1,000! I charge the same hourly rate for any work done. Russ