Question About SB'ers Development...

[rb99]

It has been some time since I have been here, and I am going through threads and topics getting caught up on things. I find SB has really matured, and bloomed into something really great. If you go through the SB Blog, you see in the last couple of years the machine and it's usage has matured greatly.

I am wondering what is OK around here now. It seems like accessories that were developed and shared are now offered commercially by the people that once shared them freely on the board. Others also added and help with the development, or at least followed and asked questions along the way.

Is asking questions about these things considered bad form now? I see some of the threads get closed, or the content is missing. Then I see the thing that was freely shared is now a proprietary item for sale. Almost everything is now a commercial item.

Can I ask for help to build my own accessories? Is that stepping on toes? If I want to build, *for example only*, a drag knife, or a Vac Box, or a super Z or a dust foot is this something not done anymore? Can we use these as models and discuss them or is that considered bad form now and off limits? Would asking what the Donek offset is and how to achieve that offset (again as an example only) be wrong here?

It seems to me things may have changed this way.

[bleeth]

RB99 (Is that Rob? Welcome back!-I see you're thinking of upgrading the mill)
Guys are still tinkering with their own versions of different accessories and getting help/suggestions along the way.
Definitely some of the most useful/successful inventions by users for their tool are now offered for sale by the makers or their assigned agents.
Why not? It's called capitalism.
Recently there have been do-it-yourself threads about dust shoes, vac boxes, drag knives, etc. Others would just as soon buy it than re-invent it.
I've done both self development and buying others gizmos. Sometimes I have the time and inclination and other times I am glad I can just order it and get into production.

[rb99]

Richard...

Yes just the cost now with Canadian $$ is well over 30% hit. So things that are $250 come in at almost $500.

Also if I want a vacuum table I am not making money so I might try building the Vac Box. Then again I might not. I just don't want to piss everyone off asking questions that I should not be- etiquette wise.

[Brady Watson]

Richard,
The vacuum box was started by yours truly way back in 2007 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?545-The-9-15-Open-Source-Vacuum-Project). I deemed it an open source project - kind of a gift to the community - that came out of my own R&D. I was messing with it for a few years and figured there wasn't any money to be made from it & it would have been a crime to just shelf the info - so I just gave it to everyone. There have been commercial derivatives of the project, which have vastly improved on my work. I did give my blessing to those doing it & receive no money in return. All the information conducive to making your own setup has already been posted ad nauseam.

I for one do not want to hold anybody's hand when it comes time to build your own. I feel that all the hard work is done - and your cost of admission is learning about the system and building it on your own. If someone else wants to contribute box designs et al - go for it. I don't have plans, never did and never will. I don't want to come off mean...I just don't want to do that sort of thing with my 'spare time' - if you catch my drift. I've only done one or two motor designs that didn't have a box - so I wouldn't be of much help anyway. I run a Becker and FPz these days...

When it comes to the drag knife, my personal opinion on the subject of making your own is, go for it, but keep it to yourself. Nobody can stop you from making anything. However, I would find the question of asking about specs for a commercial product that is currently being sold, by one of our own - a bit pushy and in bad taste. I mean, here's a guy, much like you or me, that took time away from his family to make a product nobody else was making...he took the risk, did the work, and is feeding his family in these tough times with the fruit of his labor. Publishing specs or blatantly reverse engineering his stuff is out of bounds. I know times are tight for a lot of folks, but that doesn't trump someone else's right to earn a living. Again...this is my opinion on the subject - and not personally directed at you...just saying - we all know right from wrong.


-B

[MogulTx]

I need a "like" button for that, Brady.

[rb99]

Richard,
The vacuum box was started by yours truly way back in 2007 (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?545-The-9-15-Open-Source-Vacuum-Project). I deemed it an open source project - kind of a gift to the community - that came out of my own R&D. I was messing with it for a few years and figured there wasn't any money to be made from it & it would have been a crime to just shelf the info - so I just gave it to everyone. There have been commercial derivatives of the project, which have vastly improved on my work. I did give my blessing to those doing it & receive no money in return. All the information conducive to making your own setup has already been posted ad nauseam.

I for one do not want to hold anybody's hand when it comes time to build your own. I feel that all the hard work is done - and your cost of admission is learning about the system and building it on your own. If someone else wants to contribute box designs et al - go for it. I don't have plans, never did and never will. I don't want to come off mean...I just don't want to do that sort of thing with my 'spare time' - if you catch my drift. I've only done one or two motor designs that didn't have a box - so I wouldn't be of much help anyway. I run a Becker and FPz these days...

When it comes to the drag knife, my personal opinion on the subject of making your own is, go for it, but keep it to yourself. Nobody can stop you from making anything. However, I would find the question of asking about specs for a commercial product that is currently being sold, by one of our own - a bit pushy and in bad taste. I mean, here's a guy, much like you or me, that took time away from his family to make a product nobody else was making...he took the risk, did the work, and is feeding his family in these tough times with the fruit of his labor. Publishing specs or blatantly reverse engineering his stuff is out of bounds. I know times are tight for a lot of folks, but that doesn't trump someone else's right to earn a living. Again...this is my opinion on the subject - and not personally directed at you...just saying - we all know right from wrong.


-B

Sure... That was what I thought. If you read through all the threads from years ago like I have been doing for hours and hours (and hours), there was a comradery about these projects, and everyone was pitching in and helping and contributing to the development. Then someone commercializes it and the fun comradery is now over. Not having been around here for a number of years, as well as missing big stretches I see a real change in attitude about the SB and the group here.

I am not looking at someone doing the work. I was hoping that same enthusiasm for the SB and using and developing was still alive. I guess it is not. And if I use the old forum posts and try to bring them up to be discussed it would be considered as you say "a bit pushy and in bad taste". I am not trying to make anyone upset, or take away anyone's right to earn a living etc. Please don't think I am. I just notice a big change in this online community. The projects got commercialized, and now everything is taking someone's livelihood away from them. Before it was some people with a common interest and hobby, working together for the fun of it. Now it seems the fun is gone. It is all about making money off each other and if you try to build it yourself with the help of the SB community it would be in bad taste and taking money from someone.

I think what I was seeing was an open source community, that has now become a closed source one. No problem, I will try to do what I can do.

BTW I am in the process of purchasing a used Donek knife, it was strictly an example. I am not the sharpest tool in the CNC shed, so I won't be a threat to anyone...

[Gary Campbell]

Richard....
Like yourself, I have noticed great change in the personality of the forums over the last decade. These changes are, I believe, due to the popularity gain with CNC in general, the wide reaches of the internet and a personality shift in the user base.

Machines have evolved for the better and include less need to "hack" or improve and there is a drastic shift to immediate gratification. Machine owners seem to have more money to purchase mods or accessories than the time, talent or perseverance to develop them.

Since you have mentioned the vac box, which like Brady, I have knowledge and immeasurable hours into, I would like to explain how an idea evolves "these days". Before I do, let me say that I encourage you to build your own and that if you read and understand the posts by Brady in his "Open Source" thread and by myself in the "Black Box" thread, you will surely succeed.

After testing a few iterations of series and parallel configurations and conversations with the vac motor supplier, it became apparent that the vast majority of non debris failures were due to excessive heat. Heat caused by long exhaust pipes, mufflers and mostly poorly designed enclosures. Enclosures that reduced noise, but turned the motors into grenades that blew in minutes.

My first Black Box (circa 2010) used the vacuum exhaust to provide a venturi effect that moved lots of extra air over the motors to cool them and scavenge the cooling fan exhaust, extending the life of the motors well beyond the published spec. This info and a few minor details were shared only with SB'ers that were doing "the work" vs. those that wanted an "easy button".

Never offered the product for sale publicly, but did build and/or install around 20 of them in the $1500 range prior to being hired by ShopBot in 2011 . It was determined that selling the product would be a conflict with my employment, so I gave the eCabs files to those in the community to convert and post for the good of the SB community with the intent that the development would continue as it seemed to have "back in the day". Not so.

After being hired by another CNC company I was approached to design a similar product that could be bolted as a factory installed single phase vacuum product on their machines. This new design (circa 2013) proved to both flow better, run cooler and had integral zone valves. Rights to mfgr the design were sold to a 3rd party on a royalty basis. That agreement, based on the first 300 units will soon expire, prohibited me from contributing to other "vacuum motor products for cnc machines". Like Brady, I have shared all that I wish to on this subject.

The why: A quick search of my inbox using "black box vacuum" returns over 2300 emails since 2011. The majority of them from non SB owners (62,000 views cant all be from registered forum members or owners) and contain the following: (highlights)

"I know you don't want to post info on the black box anymore, but could you please.....:
Redesign the file ready to cut on xxx machine?
Get me a discount on the motors?
Change the file so I can use 1/2" MDF?
Send me a file in GCode?
Provide a wiring diagram?
Convert the file to metric?
Redesign so I can cut it from 1 sheet?
Provide a part number for motors that aren't so expensive?
Show me a material that is available in xxx location from xxx supplier?
Give me a BOL on the plumbing parts?
Design a plenum to fit my machine?
Send me a complete set of plans as I plan to sell these in xxx location?
I built your plans to the letter and my motors burned up, what is wrong?
I built your plans to the letter and mine wont hold anything down, what is wrong?
The list goes on an on.... ad nauseum

So yes, using information I researched in part on this forum, and specifically that from Brady and Harold Weber, and their incentive to do my own testing, the vacuum motor in a box was commercialized by myself. I guess I am a capitalist, probably always will be. I will not be ashamed of generating tens of thousands of dollars from an idea in sales and royalties, even if the original thought was not mine. All do-it yourselfers dream of this. Or they should.

The problem may lie in todays definition of do-it yourself. Back when I started most seemed to, not so much today. It seems that knowledge is now open or crowd sourced. Maybe I am a dinosaur in that I believe that do-it yourself means just that, doing it yourself. Take an idea, experiment, make mistakes, waste money and repeat till one succeeds. My guess is that we are all here because a guy named Ted Hall did exactly that.

Sorry for the length of the rant, GC

[rb99]

Thanks Gary. I appreciate the post, especially the way you explained it with kindness. I agree with what you say. Also if I got 2300 emails I would be tired. I have watched your YouTube videos and your abilities are amazing.

[tri4sale]

The problem may lie in todays definition of do-it yourself. Back when I started most seemed to, not so much today. It seems that knowledge is now open or crowd sourced. Maybe I am a dinosaur in that I believe that do-it yourself means just that, doing it yourself. Take an idea, experiment, make mistakes, waste money and repeat till one succeeds. My guess is that we are all here because a guy named Ted Hall did exactly that.

Sorry for the length of the rant, GC

Didn't seem like a rant at all, very good read.

I do think there is a large mentality that want the instructables style of things just laid out to them, in steps 1, 2, 3... and expect the results to be perfect, and it to cost 10% of what you can just buy one for commercially, and they don't want the true maker experience of 10's (or 100's) of prototypes that failed.

[rb99]

Well for me if the widget has been diy perfected by the forum, why should that info be hidden? Why would someone want me to make a bunch of errors for no reason? I am not a machinist, and I am not making money with my SB other than cutting a few pieces of sheet stock once in a while...

[donek]

Well for me if the widget has been diy perfected by the forum, why should that info be hidden? Why would someone want me to make a bunch of errors for no reason? I am not a machinist, and I am not making money with my SB other than cutting a few pieces of sheet stock once in a while...

I am sure you have a job that pays your mortgage, puts food on your table, hopefully sends your kids to College, and most importantly provides you with health coverage and piece of mind. If someone put out a video or set of instructions that enabled your boss to do the job you do for free, thus taking away that piece of mind, you would probably want to keep that video or set of instructions out of his hands.

The guys you want to make things easy for you, didn't have it easy. They spent hundreds, maybe thousands of hours developing this idea and making it work. You may spend many hours away from your family hard at work too, but you always get that paycheck every other week. The guy developing an idea did not generate any income from those hours of work, frustration and failures. The guy you want to give you his hard earned knowledge for free doesn't get his paycheck until the hard part is done... Until he's made it look really easy. Then he has to endure people asking him why is your time and effort worth as much as mine? Why should you get to earn enough from this idea that looks so simple to pay for your mortgage, put your kids through college, pay for your own health coverage...

It took almost a year of my spare time to develop the first drag knife I used in producing snowboards back in 1999. A year and a half later, I had developed another that made the previous one look totally lame. I used that tool through 2012. At that time I had a few more tricks up my sleeve and mentally designed a new tool. Being pragmatic, I thought, surely somebody is producing a commercial version of this tool by now, and I'll just buy theirs. My investigations turned up nothing but others asking if I would make them one. So I invested another couple hundred hours in developing this new idea and made a handful of prototypes. They sold almost immediately. So I went into production.

I get questions from people who have never run their own business and have always been employed by someone their entire life, that totally baffle me. It shows that they are totally unaware of where their paychack comes from and how all the great things in their life are generated. These questions indicate that these people have an extremely limited understanding of what things really cost.

What do you think the insurance costs for a company that makes an unbalanced tool with a knife attached to it that is mounted in a motor that can spin at 20,000rpm?

Have you ever investigate the cost of health insurance for a family that is self employed?

I would imagine you can approximate that families other expenses.

Take a stab at what you think it costs to manufacture that tool... and then triple it.

Total up the above costs and then add another 50% because we haven't mentioned any overhead. Subtract the actual cost to manufacture and figure out how many units need to be sold to support that family.

That's right. The price we're charging for all our hard work and frustration doesn't even come close to covering it.

The last thing I have to say is. Support the innovators, the guys with vision, and passion... Support small business, don't undermine it.

[rb99]

I went to college for graphic design. I then apprenticed at a number of ad agencies. I spent years learning to make signs. Does that mean people should not make their own signs but should feel guilty if they think about doing that and only buy signs from me? I have had large clients that I did tons of work for year after year buy their own cutters and printers and started making their signs in house.

There are a number of guys online showing how they made their own drag knives. Because you have decided to invest and make a great product, I should not be able to make my own for my own purposes? I should feel guilty if I ask or collaborate with others to do that?

Support small business... what about my small business? If I have the equipment to make something that is commercially available do I not have the right to support my own business and make my own? If there is a forum where people help each other with CNC should I not be able to ask questions about making the widget without being chastised? Every time a project gets commercialized does that business now own the rights to free speech?

I am not going to make a drag knife. I am buying one. I have no jobs for it, but think it is really cool. As I said it was only an example. This is a discussion, so I am not running out to reinvent the great knife you have. I wish you nothing but the best and continued success with the best drag knife made.

[tri4sale]

There are a number of guys online showing how they made their own drag knives. Because you have decided to invest and make a great product, I should not be able to make my own for my own purposes? I should feel guilty if I ask or collaborate with others to do that?


No, you should be able to make one for your own purpose, and look over the old forum messages, and even ask questions, with zero guilt. You may or may not get answers. There are a lot of great products that have been released commercially after development and feedback from this site. Some of those things you maybe able to improve on, and create a better widget then what is out there now. And in this great free economy we have, you can produce and sell. And someone may come along and develop an even better widget. Nothing is stopping you from reading old posts, trying to develop your own version, and asking questions. And nothing is forcing anyone to answer those questions. Sometime recently, someone posted about creating a new dust shoe, and even though Kent's shoe gets good review here, people offered advise and opinions. I'm sure some people choose not to offer their advise and opinions, but some did.

[Ajcoholic]

I see both sides.

Similarly to designs of furniture, if someone spent a good amount of time working on something they sell for business, I can completely see why they wouldn't freely share their files with others.

That being said, I have given away my files to several prime since I know unless you're in my community, you won't hurt my business. Something that is sold on line across countries is different.

If I were selling a product I designed and spent time developing - that could be reproduced and sold in competition with mine ( or even for single use) I could see why you would be a bit more quiet with your design ideas etc.

I'm not against sharing what I've learned and I try and to help others. Even in my business, I share with my competitors who I get materials from etc. it's not going to hurt me due to the nature of my work.

But if I were selling all over and had to worry about not just my local area I'm sure I'd think differently.

Also ive had requests for basically talking someone through the entire build process - which I just don't have time for. You need to put at least a bit of effort into building something. Especially if you've gotten a good head start.

I've asked others for help here in the past. Some have helped me out graciously. Others not so much as a response. But it doesn't bother me. I understand everyone treats their own intellectual property differently. And that's their right. No reason to get upset about it in my opinion.

[jerry_stanek]

So if widgetworks designed their drag knife and sold it then no one else should design one and sell it.

[rb99]

I wished I wouldn't have used the drag knife as a hypothetical example. I really like what Donek has done and didn't mean to get his product caught up in this discussion, a discussion that was meant to be dealing in generalities. My apologies to Donek.

Perhaps we could change it to "If company ABC designs product XYZ and sold it then..."

[Brady Watson]

OK - I give up. Which 'widget' are we talking about here?

Who specifically is not giving you what you need? What is it that you need exactly?

If there is some conspiracy going on, I want to know about it.

Please enlighten me, by citing specific examples/posts. Without clarity there can be no understanding.

-B

[rb99]

Brady as I asked: Is this forum still friendly to guys like me who want to build stuff, and ask for help from the forum to build that stuff if it has been commercialized by other forumites? As I read through the posts from years ago until now, I get a sense, and as well from some of the posts on this thread, that I should be buying these items from the guys who are profiting (or trying to profit) instead of getting help from the users here to build my own. I am not able to build this stuff without the help and guidance of the other guys who do have experience. Down the road I would like to make a vac box and set up a vacuum table on my machine. First I need to get my machine working as well as it is able to. Then I would like to make a zero plate. Then worry about the other stuff.

[donek]

I apologize for my rantish post. Some people choose to make their developments open source and others do not. That decision is dependent upon the developers intention for the creation and market size. I'm a huge fan of open source electronics like arduino. Several people have developed marketable products as a result of that platform and I would imagine, some have kept things close to their vest. The market size for a drag knife isn't even close to that of the arduino.

I have a lot invested in the drag knife. And there are some overseas companies that have not had the decency to alter any dimensions or model numbers while knocking it off. We are patent pending on a certain aspect of that design and those benefiting from the distribution of certain designs are infringing on that concept. We are quite confident the patent will be issued. Once it is, the question comes down to how we will address those infringements. As you can imagine, both of these issues leave me extremely frustrated.

I have run a small business all my life. There is little chance the snowboard brand will continue to benefit me when I retire or should I meet an untimely demise. If properly protected, the drag knife business will, with luck, continue to benefit my family should the unexpected happen. This is my sole purpose in protecting that technology... Seeing my kids through school and ensuring my family is provided for.

My earlier comments were me venting about comments and questions from people who seem to believe every concept should be open source. But as I tried to explain, most of these individuals have almost no grasp on the economics of running a business.

I think most people here are very willing to share their insight and knowledge on many topics. I, myself, have shared a great deal. I don't believe people will bash you for asking. Someone might point out proprietary issues, but most will simply plow on. I remember one post about someone building a drag knife and someone else chimed in to say they'd made the attempt and it failed and ultimately purchased our tool. Don't be afraid to ask. You may or may not get a response from the experts, but you're likely to get a response from someone.

[jerry_stanek]

You are more than welcome to ask for any help. We are here to help one another no matter what it is. Asking to help make some thing that is commercially available is not a problem as most have built some thing they could have bought that was on the market. The Dornek knife is a good example as he took one style and he came up with a netter product.

[GeneMpls]

One of the reasons I am so enamored of my CNC router is that I can build almost any thing with it and with a professional look. I built, modified, and restored streetrods and Corvettes since I was 14 and as a profession for 35 years. I LOVE to build things. My current business is wide format printing and when we bought a new 64 inch printer I spent a month remodeling it and adapting it to work best for our application.
I needed a drag knife- so of course I looked at all the picts on line and designed and built my own... and had a grand time doing it, and it worked fairly well. We had a big job come up needing a DK... and we bought a Donek and it is a piece of art. I kind of lost my focus here... is it that there is room for all of us? Gene

[Brady Watson]

Build whatever you want...post pics, ask questions. Those who have built the thing(s) that you are interested in can choose to respond and share their information at their discretion - with the caveat that we don't hijack someone's living; which I think we have already established here.

When it comes to the Lighthouse vacuum stuff...It is still open source. The fact that someone made a commercial derivative is irrelevant. This means you can carry on & build one yourself. There are commercial vacuum cleaners that use those same exact motors, but rival manufacturers don't cry foul because they put an identical motor in a different wrapper. Same thing here.

I wouldn't expect anyone who took the time to perfect their 'wrapper' for financial gain to just share the specs openly...and I wouldn't get upset about that either. I say good for them for finding a niche. I knew this was a possibility when I put the information 'in public'. It's my baby & I am OK with this. If one of my brothers gains from my research, then I've done my job.

I will most likely not be participating (and have not) in lighthouse vacuum builds or be giving advice - simply because I haven't kept up with the latest and greatest info. Part numbers and specs have changed since I started fooling with these things 10 years ago...

Here is a list of the 'rules' that must be agreed to before building one of these systems. I posted this in the very first Open Source Vacuum thread using the lighthouse motors, which highlights the YOU in Do it YOUrself:



1) If you are not good with electricity, spend a few bucks and get an electrician.

2) If you are really, really lazy and you want every little thing spelled out for you every step of the way, this is not for you.

3) This is as much a learning process as it is a means to an end. You will learn much as you build this setup, and be rewarded with a powerful vacuum powerplant for your effort.

4) This is NOT a replacement for a professional vacuum system made for production work, although it's performance approaches some of these units.

5) Do your homework, your OWN research and use your own ingenuity to make YOUR version better than what I have come up with.

6) If you build a system using any of these motors, please post a picture to the group to inspire others.

-B

[bleeth]

" Is this forum still friendly to guys like me who want to build stuff"

Yes, but it is not exactly the same as it was 10 years ago. Back then the concept of a small shop or individual owning a cnc was still pretty new and information on the web was sparse. Those who owned them were a fraction in number to those that do now. Much has been learned and much information disseminated. Various add-on devices that improve an owners experience have been developed. On this forum, and from what I have seen it is still the most active and open one around sponsored by a specific manufacturer, there is a huge amount of knowledge sharing.

SB has not stood still either. The PRS is so much more robust than the PRT and PR's that less tinkering is needed. The first PRT Alpha's weren't so hot. Now it is a whole different tool and control system. Most of the questions that have to do with getting better quality cutting are answerable through bit selection and toolpath strategy, rather than tool modification.

So go ahead: get your mill running the way you want, and then make your improvements. When you need help (and as one who has been tinkering and updating my mill since I bought it and has had plenty of help) go ahead and ask.

I've noticed on another thread you asking about motors. I went through the same thing as I decided my original standard motors weren't powerful enough. As you have done so much looking in past issues, I would imagine you came across my old threads on upgrading and may have even seen that I developed a ready to go gear-box design for 1:1 Oriental motors. Would you like to have my dxf drawings and parts list that I spent many hours developing? Great. I sell them for $125.00, which represents only a couple hours of my standard hourly rates and I guarantee you are not making me rich!. I do guarantee you will save many hours of research. Or you can go on the web and look at the commercially available gearboxes and buy them ready to go. Or you can develop your own, and ask some questions here on the forum, and I am sure you will get help and guidance, some even from me, but I won't compete against myself either. Or buy all new motors that have a gearbox built in. Just as I freely posted the steps that I took along the way, and shared my methods and much specific information, you can share as much or as little as you want.

[Brian Harnett]

Back in 2003 the old forum was much more hands on as were the construction of the machines, I liked the fact I could save quite a bit by making my own table and I like the process of learning and making things.

Some just need the bot or whatever tool to make a product and money, nothing wrong with that either. I have spent many hours making something I could have purchased for a fraction of my time value but the experience of learning would be lost.

I spend way too much time tinkering in the shop just ask my wife.