New Vacuum table design, thoughts? [Archive]

EricSchimel

09-16-2015, 11:28 PM

So, I have a PRS 4x8 that came with 4 lighthouse motors just bolted to the bottom of the table. I motor for each of the 4 zones.

My table is in need of replacing and I wanted a better system. I figure since I'm doing it, I should do it once and do it right. To that end I've decided to go from 4 to 8 zones. I cut all kinds of things and I really want the flexibility.

Also, I want to reuse the lighthouse motors now, and later if I get busier get a regen blower. So I've designed a system that houses the 4 lighthouse motors in a baffled box. It feeds into a main 3" PVC pipe and then to 8 valves for each zone. 2" pipes go from each valve to the zones on the tables.

I tried to keep it simple, easy to build, and allow me to swap out the lighthouse motors for the regen. What do you all think? (The drawing is rough, I am just getting layouts at this point)

The pictures are in this link (Posting here isn't working) https://goo.gl/photos/MUq1RJaKRV2xxrFk7

Simops

09-17-2015, 05:12 AM

Eric looks OK ..... Having a stationery table (as opposed to the Buddy) makes it much easier to design. I highly recommend a Regan blower.....especially biggest HP you can get. Make sure you seal the plenum zones well as you can get quite a bit of leakage especially with smaller sized pumps. I used 3 coats of Shellac.....worked very well.

Good luck....and let us know how you go...

Brady Watson

09-17-2015, 07:08 AM

The shape of the zones is important and should not be arbitrary. You want to tailor the shape of the zones to fit the work you intend to do.

Have a look at my dual input vac system (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?18356-New-Dual-Pump-Vacuum-System) and note how the zones are laid out over a 5x12' area.

-B

EricSchimel

09-17-2015, 07:37 AM

Brady, I was having a hard time deciding what kind/size of zones I was going to use. I definitely will cut a fair about of full sheets, and also some smaller stuff. There have been times that I've cut a fair amount of things that are smaller than a 1/4 sheet so that's where I got the idea of the 8 zone. 8 zone also seemed to make sense as I was able to hold a full sheet down in the earlier setup with 1 motor per each of the 4 zones. With this setup, I'll be able to direct more suction to a smaller area if I need it, something I wasn't able to do before.

If I am cutting a really small piece I am fine with screws/clamps because it's likely not something that's going to require production speed.

Simops, I do really want a regen blower and I'll definitely get one in the near future which is why I designed this system the way that I did. So as far as the shape of the zones... I just did all squares because it fit nicely and allows me to have only a few pipe cuts to make. I moved the suction holes off of center of each zone to clear the cross beams on the ShopBot... Do you think that will affect the vacuum performance at all?

Brady Watson

09-17-2015, 09:34 AM

Lay out your zones to match your work in sizes that make sense for you.

If I were laying it out, I would make sure my zones allowed for the full 4x8 area, a 4x4, a 2x4 and then break up the last 2x4' zone into an area that matched my smaller work - perhaps 2 @ 12x24.

This would create 5 zones.

3 @ 24x48
2 @ 12x24 (located down near 0,0)

You can turn on zones for:

12x24
24x48
48x48
48x96

Outside of this, you can make custom jigs that you can lay on the table top for smaller work using the same motors, or a small higher pull pump with gasketing. No setup does it all...so you just take your best shot considering the work you plan on doing.

-B

EricSchimel

09-17-2015, 09:59 AM

That's pretty close to what I have now. I have 8 24x24 zones so that covers me for just about all sizes that I'd cut. Being able to individually turn each one on and off gives me a lot of control. I figure for anything smaller I'd just keep a 12"x24" peice of MDF around to block off half a zone. I figure if I do that, I should be able to suck down something pretty small... I think....

Brady Watson

09-17-2015, 10:11 AM

Leakage is the enemy...Sealing things off should be #1. There is no way to tell what is going on without a gauge plumbed into the system.

You'll find yourself looking at it as the job progresses...which may prompt you to reach for block offs or trash bags...

Thoughtful part programming and nesting can make the difference between holding down a job and failing half way through.

-B

joe

09-17-2015, 10:33 AM

I've gotta agree with Brady about leakage.

What's been left out of this discussion has to do with the materials being held down. If and when you have a sheet of slightly warped material like HDU, PVC or glued up wood it will require more hold-down vacuum than a flat sheet of plastic.

Since I've not had much need for thin flimsy stock a vacuum hasn't been used. A few years back I spent a few days and lots of bucks getting one set up. After a few months it was deposited in the Dimsey Dumster. All of my work is dimensional which allows for secure hold downs. Thirty years and still going with no vacuum.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

EricSchimel

09-17-2015, 10:40 AM

You know, there's a part of me that thinks I could get away with no vacuum at all... I mean for full sheets where you're panneling them up for cabinetry it makes a lot of sense to me. When I'm making stuff like www.makertable.com where there are lots of detailed parts, tabs seem to work very well. I'm already sanding stuff anyway. Tabs work and they work well.

Still though, for not much money I can get this vacuum system setup so I'm going to go ahead and do it.

joe

09-17-2015, 01:32 PM

I've seen some attractive small vac hold downs that are made to be taken on and off the router bed. They are much quieter and efficient than the whole bed method.

Still, when manufacturing dimensional signs like the one below, a vacuum is out of the question. We've debated this topic for years.

Joe
www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=26082&stc=1

Brady Watson

09-17-2015, 01:41 PM

Excellent example, Joe.

There is no 'one size fits everyone' - nor hold down that 'does it all'.

I came up with the BradyVac system of removable bleeder/grid for times where you have to clamp, screw or bolt something down - where a traditional vacuum table layup would prohibit this or be damaged.

-B

EricSchimel

09-18-2015, 02:36 PM

I really appreciate the input. I'm going to get to building and see what's what!

Alex Naumenko

09-18-2015, 03:34 PM

My table has 4 zones 24x48. Plus I got piece of .75 plywood for attaching jigs and warped wood with screws. I have few pices of banner material for masking unused area to prevent vacuum loss. When I cut letters or multiple shapes I am using same banner strips to cover cut parts. So far did not loose anything yet.

EricSchimel

09-18-2015, 05:58 PM

Do you keep an extra sheet that you put on top of your vacuum tube for when you're screwing parts down? And if so... Do you use the vacuum to hold that sheet down or just clamps?

Brady Watson

09-18-2015, 06:51 PM

This is what I call a "carrier board". It is an accessory sheet of material (my choice is MDO plywood).

Vacuum holds it to the bed. Screws and clamps are attached to the top of it, the same as if you didn't have a vacuum system.

Keep it in a safe spot when you aren't using it.

-B

EricSchimel

09-18-2015, 07:45 PM

That's a brilliant idea. Knowing that I was going to replace my bed I swiss cheesed the hell out of it shooting screws through it...

Do you surface plane down that "carrier board"? I would think that with MDO you couldn't really do that....

Simops

09-19-2015, 05:51 AM

Yep, as Brady says.....a carrier board......that's what I use for screw down use when I'm cutting irregular pieces that are not flat bottom enough to suck down, especially with my weaker even pump.
Also when cutting two sided and using pins to index. The "carrier" board is sucked down by the suction table and holds firm OK. This way I don't damage my bleeder deck.

Cheers

Ajcoholic

09-19-2015, 11:54 AM

Now that I also have a vacuum (universal) I often make my jigs and fixtures that hold solid wood pieces, from plywood or melamine, and just set them on the vac table to hold them in place.

Although I can (within minutes) remove my plenum and hold down parts via clamps on the T slot aluminum deck, it is even faster to leave it there and use the vac.

I have only lost a few parts from movement. Usually I just place scraps of melamine around the parts to be machined, to both help hold them in place and also close off the majority of the bleeder board that is uncovered.

EricSchimel

09-21-2015, 08:56 PM

Alright, I'm tweaking my design a little more. I think I've nearly got it....

Everything is designed to actual PVC pipe specs so I can generate a order and cut list from SketchUp. I ended up angling all the pipe to raise the main 3" suction pipe up high enough.

Last thing I need to do is fit a vacuum gauge and finish the box.

2610726108261092611026111

genek

09-22-2015, 01:07 PM

Simops

09-24-2015, 04:35 AM

Hi Eugene,

Did you see my thread here....http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?21337-My-BT48-Vac-Table-Project

If you need further specific info on what I did let me know.....

Cheers

EricSchimel

10-16-2015, 06:13 PM

Alright, a bit of an update: I've got nearly all of the piping done. The vacuum box with the 4 lighthouse motors is nearly done as well. More pictures of that coming later...

Here is a link to the build so far:

https://goo.gl/photos/MUq1RJaKRV2xxrFk7

I designed the whole system in SketchUp and used it to make all of my cuts.

Brady Watson

10-16-2015, 06:28 PM

Jeez...good for you! Doing them in CAD is over the top.

The way I would do them in the field would be to get the manifold sorted out & strapped down. Then do the 2" holes, silicone and attach the pipe flanges under the table in whatever location the customer required. Then eyeball the 90s from manifold to 90 at each port, measure and cut the straights. Then glue it all together. Once you get the manifold cranked down, the rest is pretty easy...but the glue can make you loopy and screw up, so keep that in mind.

-B

EricSchimel

10-16-2015, 10:14 PM

Yeah, doing it in SketchUp was necessary for this design, I wanted to make sure that I could pack all the pipes and valves where I wanted them. I also used it to design the baffled muffler box which I'll post more about once I finish building it :)

scottp55

10-17-2015, 04:22 AM

Nice looking octopus Eric:)
Makes me glad I have a Desktop:)
scott

EricSchimel

10-25-2015, 08:41 AM

So I got the table up and running, and it works fantastic. Pictures are in the link below:

https://goo.gl/photos/MUq1RJaKRV2xxrFk7

I've got a few more things to clean up on it. I've already got the switches mounted and the milk crates are gone in favor if some nice hangars.

The holding power is excellent. Even without the edges totally sealed yet I'm able to hold down even small parts about 6" square easily.

I am happy with the motor box too. I've got 4 lighthouse motors in it that exhaust into some perforated baffles. Each motor is plumbed in with it's own check valve so I can toggle any combination of motors I want at any time. It's just a bit louder than a large shop vac. I checked the temps and even with them running for an hour straight they only got to about 100 degrees on the main body.

After fooling with it I cut about 10 sheets of cabinet parts (easy, big rectangles) and I was able to confidently cut them with only 1 motor on. Not sure what I'm pulling for vacuum as I have yet to install my gauge...

EricSchimel

10-26-2015, 12:10 PM

Vacuum gauge is in. At the far end of my 3" manifold I'm pulling about 6hg with the table fully covered. That's with two motors. With one I pull about 4-5.

Fooling around with smaller stuff it seems that between 3-5 offers some great stick. My initial impressions are that I'll rarely need more than two motors running at any given time. I figured that would be the case, but since I already owned 4 I figured why not hook them all up.

Brady Watson

10-26-2015, 12:38 PM

What do you pull with a combination of motors on/off and NOTHING on top of the table with all zones OPEN? This will be your baseline. Effective vacuum will be max vac shown on gauge with all zones CLOSED (not just top of table covered) minus, the initial open air reading you got with all zones open and nothing on the table.

Differences on the gauge between all zones closed and entire top of table covered with all zones open, will be how much leakage you are getting around the edges & possibly in the plumbing. Hopefully you siliconed the pipe flanges where they meet the table at each zone...

Your numbers sound low. You should be getting at least 8 Hg" with everything closed; possibly more.

-B

EricSchimel

10-26-2015, 01:08 PM

There's almost no reading on the gauge when every zone is open and the table is clear. With every zone closed off I can get 10, maybe even more. The motors sounded angry when I did that.

The numbers I was pulling were before the edges were sealed, I've since rectified that but haven't re-tested.

The silver tape I used on some of the pipe sections isn't the best either. It's just there temporarily so I can make sure I've got everything set before I glue it in place.

Brady Watson

10-26-2015, 04:16 PM

The silver tape I used on some of the pipe sections isn't the best either. It's just there temporarily so I can make sure I've got everything set before I glue it in place.

There you go...Once you 'do a proper job' you'll get some more suction out of it.

-B

Simops

10-27-2015, 01:30 AM

Brady......Just wandering where is the best place to put the vacuum gauge? I have the pump, then the pressure relief valve then the filter then the manifold.....so is it best between pump and relief valve or other side between filter and manifold?
Just cburious

Brady Watson

10-27-2015, 07:16 AM

Between PR valve and manifold. This way you can tell if your PR valve is open or not.

-B

EricSchimel

10-28-2015, 07:13 AM

Alright here are the numbers:

With all zones closed and 1 or 2 motors running I'm seeing 8 to 9 hg.

With all zones open and nothing in the table I'm seeing 0 to .5

With a full sheet on the table and all zones open I'm seeing 5

Not sure if this makes a difference but I'm using LDF (trupan) for the spoil board. I surfaced both sides before installing it. It seems to have good flow. Full sheets stick like crazy. I cut about 15 sheets of cabinet parts the other day on it (lots of rectangles) and it worked awesome.

If I only have one zone open and I put something small on it like an 8" rectangle it sticks really well too.

Kyle Stapleton

10-28-2015, 07:50 AM

You have a lot of leaks, start checking all of your joints.
Yours numbers for a covered table should be similar to the numbers of all valves closed.

Simops

10-29-2015, 04:25 AM

I'm using LDF (trupan) for the spoil board.

Lucky if you can source LDF......absolutely not available in AUS! Only manufacturer that can do it wants a minimum order of 1000 8x4 sheets��. Can get in NZ but not here ..and we're 5 x the population size.....go figure!

I'm sure that if I could get LDF it would further improve my suction.....especially on a marginal 2.2Hp pump.

Cheers

EricSchimel

11-02-2015, 02:22 PM

Alright, I've finally had a chance to go back and check things out. Here's what I've got:

My table is 49x97 so when I put a 96x48 sheet on there there is a space all the way around. With a full sheet on it and two of the four motors running I could feel air being sucked in around that exposed edge. I pulled the sheet off and covered the edge with some blue painters tape. That improved things a bit. I now can get 6.25 with the table covered with a sheet of Baltic Birch.

I also checked all of my other pipe fittings and everything seems to be sealed really well. I don't have all of the pipes glued in, but the ones that are press fit are sealed up with several wraps of shurtape.

So, here are the stats:

With TWO motors running and all valves closed I'm getting 8hg

With TWO motors running, a sheet fully covering the table,blue tape on the edge and all valves open I'm getting 6hg

With TWO motors running, a sheet fully covering the table all valves open I'm getting 5-5.5hg

With TWO motors running, a sheet fully covering the table, blue tape on the edit and any one valve open I'm getting 7hg

It may be worth noting to that my vacuum gauge is all the way at the opposite end of my 3" main pipe. This means that the motors are sucking through about 9-10' of pipe before reaching the vacuum gauge.

Anecdotally I can tell you that this thing sticks stuff like crazy. Anything that is larger than about 8x8 can be held down with a lot of force. To me that seems like a good performing table.

For the parts that are exposed around the edge on the top of the table (where I've currently got that blue tape) I'm thinking of just putting some paint on there to seal it up.

EricSchimel

11-07-2015, 07:33 AM

So what do you guys think?

Brady Watson

11-07-2015, 07:40 AM

You have a leak somewhere if you are able to pull 8 with everything closed, and less when you have all zones open and the table covered. There's no secret method, other than to keep sealing things up until you get 8 with everything opened up and the top of the table sealed off with a few trash bags or drop cloths.

The important thing is performance. If it is working, then good...but you want to get every bit of vacuum you can because you are paying for it...and leakage is just wasted energy.

-B

curtiss

11-07-2015, 07:59 AM

Any leaks under the table ? Will a piece of paper stick anywhere under the table, or perhaps some small pieces of Styrofoam stick to the piping connections to the tabel ?

So 6 inches of hg equals about how many psi of hold down on a part ?

Kyle Stapleton

11-07-2015, 08:41 AM

A true vacuum is about 30" of hg which would place about 15 psi on your material, so for easy math take you inches of hg and divide by two and that will get you in the ballpark. Said you are pulling 6" of hg that is about 3psi, a 96x48 sheet of ply has a surface area of 4608 sq in take that and times it by your 3psi and you should have about 14,000 lbs of hold down force. Now that is just the math, sometimes math and the real world do not mess but it will be close.

EricSchimel

11-07-2015, 06:39 PM

Good thought about the paper trick. I didn't think of that. I had an idea about finding leaks using smoke or something...

It's weird because it seems to stick things really well... I'm going to try and totally cover the table top with some plastic and see what I get.

Thanks for the continued suggestions folks!

jerry_stanek

11-08-2015, 07:16 AM

I'm an old hippy and use incense for finding leaks in my system

EricSchimel

11-08-2015, 01:28 PM

That's actually a brilliant idea.... So here are the results:

Table fully covered by plastic sheet: 6hg. I went all around with the incense and I can'f find any kind of a leak. The edges I had already sealed with silicon so there was nothing there. Every pipe joint was good, nothing coming through the bottom of the table.

I'm wondering if it's just overall flex in the pipes and the inherent lossiness that can come with sucking air through wood... This is my first vacuum table so I don't know if that's a thing...

Brady Watson

11-08-2015, 03:52 PM

I'm wondering if it's just overall flex in the pipes and the inherent lossiness that can come with sucking air through wood... This is my first vacuum table so I don't know if that's a thing...

No...the laws of physics still apply. No magic to be had...there are reasons for all of it.

The only way to 100% tell is to use an ultrasonic leak detector...which aren't cheap. Unfortunately it is hit or miss with any kind of smoke because there are currents going around the room that can be more powerful than vacuum suction loss at a tiny hole.

Your HAND is the best leak detector. Feel for coolness first, then listen to that same area with your ear.

I would repeat the conditions you had before and see if you can pull the same numbers with the system totally closed. If you can, you still haven't found where you are losing vacuum, which is somewhere in the 20-25% range if I recall.

-B

shilala

11-08-2015, 08:53 PM

I built a small vacuum bed just to see what I'd be up against when I build a real one.
I've read a ton of threads, and have been working on vac systems and equipment for years, all a pain in the ass. Some from poor design, but most from poor installation.

I built my little bed just to iron out design, problems, material, zoning, and all the other problems that creep up. I want my finished product to be infinitely flexible for any project and be able to completely shut off zones from a control panel, making it easy to use.
I'd suggest to anyone to do exactly the same thing, build a small test bed that you can throw away when you're done.
I powered mine with my Festool vac which has curves much like a Fein, just a little better, and it was available.

This little "test" didn't take long and taught me an invaluable amount of do's and don'ts. It took my brain from basics and readied it for design, as well.
I don't have much use right now, but it's something I'll do this winter, for sure.

matney_models

11-15-2015, 12:47 AM

Try to use a incense sticks. I found all mine and fixed them.

EricSchimel

06-24-2016, 09:24 AM

Hey all, it's been a while and I thought I'd post an update:

I'm about through my spoilboard using this new system and it's great. I call it the "V8 Vacuum"

Suction is awesome, and having individual control of the motors and all 8 zones has been really handy as I alternate from full sheet work to small jobs. If I plan my cuts accordingly in Aspire, I can kill zones as parts are completed and pull them off the machine by shutting down zones.

If anyone's interested, here's the as built model in SketchUp, this is what I got all of my pipe lengths from, and what I used to mill my vacuum box:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model.html?id=3759b8ff-64bb-4418-94d8-494bca1d8a4c

My next improvement when I get through this spoilboard is to really coat the hell out of the plenum. I coated it a couple of time with watered down glue, but I think I'm going to go back with some thick waterproof paint of some sort and really make sure it's extra airtight.

joe

06-24-2016, 09:34 AM

OH no, not another vacuum improvement. Looks like there will never be an end to the search. Good thing about it is it keeps part-timers with a current project.

EricSchimel

06-24-2016, 12:49 PM

I actually posted that because I was able to get a lot of help on my design from looking at what others did, and with direct feedback from generous people here on this forum. I want people to be able to benefit from any improvements I've made.

I don't think is's a "never ending search" but more like continuous improvement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

Vacuum tables are for anyone, not just part time people. For me, I needed to be able to cut more material faster with a better end result, this vacuum system allows me to do that.

GeneMpls

06-24-2016, 01:13 PM

OH no, not another vacuum improvement. Looks like there will never be an end to the search. Good thing about it is it keeps part-timers with a current project.

Come on Joe, you are better than this

mark_stief

06-24-2016, 01:28 PM

Must be in a bad mood this week He's looking down his nose at everybody for some reason and then wonders why people don't want to post pictures of their signs

joe

06-24-2016, 08:29 PM

Look guys, I've been making signs for years without a vacuum. This IS NOT a necessity for everyone. I see a vacuum a complete waste of time on most work. If you gotta have something like this a Puck System should be considered.

Gene, bless your heart. I'm not better than this. I'm always here to point out dumb idea's. But for the hobby class they need more projects to keep them busy just in case they decide to make something. Anyway I'm glad to have Gene reading.

Not sure but I'm suspicious we crank out more $'s, per week, than the hobby class posting. And I don't use or need a vacuum.

EricSchimel

06-24-2016, 09:26 PM

I'm really glad that you've been working without a vacuum for years and it's been working just fine. As you say it's not a necessity for everyone, agreed, vacuum systems aren't magic. If I've done something dumb in my design, or even my decision to use one in the first place, some actual information and real feedback would be welcomed. Instead you've pointed out that using a vacuum is dumb without having even one clue what I do. Then you go on to elude that you probably make more money than me. Again, you have no idea what I do, how or why I do it and certainly no idea what I get paid to do it. This is the last place for a wallet measuring contest.

To paraphrase your own words, you're not better than this. Furthermore I've got to guess you don't know anything about vacuum systems since you don't use one. So not only is your feedback likely not going to be useful, it's also not wanted. Kindly don't post in this thread anymore. If you feel the burning desire to continue providing useless feedback, send me a PM and spare the general public.

Now, back on track, thanks to some great feedback from Brady and others my system is working quite well. The model that I posted earlier:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model.html?id=3759b8ff-64bb-4418-94d8-494bca1d8a4c

This is a 4 220v lighthouse motor system. The motors are mounted in a vac box with a baffled muffler system. Each motor is run through a check valve and then into a small manifold. This means I can use any combination of motors to get the desired suction I need. The check valve manifold then goes into the main manifold where I have 8 zones, each 24" x 24". This allows me to individually turn on and off each zone, and also pick how many motors are running at any given time. It's great for full sheets, and with the turn of a few valves I can direct a lot of suction at a very small section. A lot of times I plan my cuts so that I can kill of zones as I cut and remove parts. This can save time on big jobs. "Merge parts" in Aspire works well with this setup.

This is an exact as built model. You can actually get all the pipe lengths from it, and if you want to build the vacuum box you can actually use VCarve or Aspire's SketchUp import function to pull the box, and the hanging brackets in and mill them.

If anyone needs help opening up the files let me know and I can walk you through it.

Ajcoholic

06-24-2016, 10:00 PM

Look guys, I've been making signs for years without a vacuum.

Wow that's amazing Joe. But did it ever occur to you many here don't just do signs, and consider the fact that a vacuum hold down might actually increase productivity tenfold?

I invested a lot of time and money two years ago into my vacuum system. The best thing I could have done besides get the machine in the first place.

Why can't you just leave well enough alone when you have nothing productive to add to the thread? I know you have your fans. But seriously, you are quite an abrasive man at times. That adds zero to any conversation.

joe

06-24-2016, 10:13 PM

Eric,

I have come to the opinion about the general futility of this topic by spending the money and time around 2000 to built a total setup. I was so excited, like most SBers thinking this was going to improve my products and save time. After a few months it found it's way to the dumpster. It worked well but couldn't see any reason to turn it on. Over the years I've even tried making several re-movable vac pallets, specific for different jobs then went on to Vac pucks. So it's not exactly as if I'm clueless on the topic.

While there are many high production CNC shops cutting flexible stock needing to be held in place while cutting, that's that not what this forum is all about. I'm sure many of the fellows would really enjoy making your octopus looking configuration. In my mind it's doubtful how it will change their end product. My best example would go like this. If the "Router Fairy" installed the best, high dollar, CNC equipment in one's garage, what would be the net effect with a SBers production? Another down side to Vacuums is the noise not to mention the added heat.

What would be fun is if one of the fellows following this thread would commit to a step by step build. And a little testimony to bolster the interest.

Not knowing what you build I'm sure everyone would enjoy seeing some of your stuff. I'd be happy to post more pix of Non Vacuum projects but since I've been posting them for years I'm sure everyone know what I'm up to.

joe

06-24-2016, 10:37 PM

Joe

Thanks for posting. I value your opinion and enjoy looking over your work. Your father did a good job teaching you the proper steps to build a fine business. Wish you would post more of what you're doing.

About vacuums. Isn't it curious the legnth of this thread. While there is a need, in some cases, the amount of discussion on this topic amazes. But I will take your advice and leave well enough alone. Thanks for your input.

srwtlc

06-24-2016, 11:22 PM

I've been driving my bot(s) around for 16 years now and I've never had a full vac table, but have often used vac jigs for product runs. There have been many time where a full table would have saved me much time and effort, but I've just never taken the time to either build or buy. No other reason than just 'not now, but maybe one day'. I have always enjoyed reading of other users design thoughts, decisions, and experiences. If and when the time comes that I want to do one, I will likely take what I have gleaned over the years and apply it to my own journey down the vac road.

That said, I want to thank you Eric, for your excellent contribution to all of us and those to come that will be looking for vacuum solutions to fit their needs (and budget). If you're a cabinet shop or one that uses various types of sheet goods for products, a good vacuum system can be an invaluable addition to your business. Try telling a cabinet shop that has a CNC that it's a total waste of time to have a vacuum table! There are a number of us here that would be greatly hindered in our production without using vacuum. Among others, our resident 'Bat Man' comes to mind. Tell him it's a waste of time!

I was saddened to read Joe's post this morning to once again see him looking down his nose (foot firmly implanted in mouth) on anyone that doesn't fit his criteria for a good idea, product, or successful (or maybe not quite so successful) business. Not all of us start at the pinnacle of our chosen profession and are able to bestow our knowledge to the lowly 'part-timer' working class, bolstering our achievements whilst demeaning those of others. I may not make as much as Joe in a day, month, or year, but I have food on the table, a roof over my head, a wife that loves me and I her and I consider myself a blessed man for these as well as the daily struggles that keep me humble.

knight_toolworks

06-24-2016, 11:32 PM

there is no one way with cnc. I cut pretty much everything that can be cut on a bot in multiple thicknesses. I mean about everything it is crazy sometimes. sometimes it can only be done with a vacuum sometimes I can do without. sometimes I need nails or screws or a jig or spay adhesive or double sided tape or a combo. when I use a vac I almost never need to use tabs or a onion skin. thats with just the black box vac setup. but I can also cut 700 little waves out of a 30x60 piece of 1/8" baltic birch by stapling the sheets edges down to the bed and no vac. I use the best method or the most cost effective for that material. since Pretty much only cut customers material I have to be pretty flexible.

Ajcoholic

06-26-2016, 02:50 PM

Since this topic is in the general Shopbot forum and not even in the sign forum, I am pretty sure that many of us do indeed value a vacuum hold down.

I did detail the construction of my system in great detail, back in 2014 when I built both the aluminum deck, and the universal vacuum for it (based on Brady's Buddy set up). Since it was in the Buddy forum, I doubt many with out Buddy's read it. But the priciples are the same. I am using a 48" by 48" universal vac layout with two 24" by 48" zones.

Over the past two years, I have gone to almost exclusive cutting of most of my solid wood, and also all of my sheet goods - using the universal vacuum.

WHat I do (for instance, this past week where we did a run of bar stools X6), is throw an older, thinner sheet of MDF on my bleeder board, and cut a 1/4" deep pocket into it - sized for the blank I am cutting. I just lay scrap pcs of melemine on the MDF that I dont want air to pass through, and drop my wooden blank into the pocket. The vacuum pulls through the bleeder, and through the extra MDF panel and holds the blank down firmly enough. The pocketing stops any sideways movement. And the use of down spiral tools also makes the lifting of the blank a non issue.

I cut up to 1 3/4" thick material like this, shape seats, etc. WOrks great! So much faster than clamping. Positioning is perfect each time, and for different operations I just pull up the blanks and when one tool is done switch tools and carry on again. LEaving the final cut outs until the last step.

I only find it necessary to clamp solid wood when I am cutting a blank that isnt flat. However, when I am doing this kind of work, I laminate up my blanks, joint and plane just before I CNC machine. Then everything is flat and true and I get very good hold down.

By the way, I am using plain old cabinet grade (called superior grade here in Canada) MDF. 3/4" for my bleeder, I swap out to a new one when I get below 1/2". I save the used spoil boards for this type of pocketing machine work.

WHen I am running multiple parts, I make multiple pockets. As well as being faster due to no clamping, another huge benefit is that each part is perfectly positioned (and I leave my vacuum on during the whole machining operation, so the spoil board also doesnt move).

Brian Harnett

06-26-2016, 06:37 PM

OH no, not another vacuum improvement. Looks like there will never be an end to the search. Good thing about it is it keeps part-timers with a current project.

Geez from a guy that badmouths shopbot on other forums and farms out his cnc work

Some of us actually like to tinker and learn. I enjoy coming here and finding something new than worrying about the almighty dollar on every job.

The term troll I think applies.

I may someday make a full vac system I have some small vac tables I clamp on when doing production like shaped seats, I just run them on a fein.

Or gasket pucks on the vac pump.

Pneumatic clamps come in handy too.

joe

06-26-2016, 07:14 PM

Ajcoholic

06-26-2016, 08:22 PM

Firstly, my name is Andrew (as in my sig). Not a big issue, but my father is Joe, as is my son. Sometime in the future he may become the 4th generation of woodworker in our family..

Joe, I am pretty sure what irritates people is not as much "what" you say, but HOW you say it, and come across as very condescending and patronizing to an extent.

This thread was about some productive talk about vac systems. No need to even care, never mind post and come down on anypne simply because you think (for you) vacuum hold down wasn't worth the effort.

Sharing ideas and what we are all doing is what I love about this forum. In the almost 5 years here Ive never had an arguement with anyone, and only had two members (for unknown reasons) give me a hard time. It is sad to see how you at times, really without reason, come down on others. Critiquing someones work is one thing. Telling someone they arent worth you time, or the constant slagging of the "hobby" guys and how they are somehow not worthy of even being a member here is very rude.

Everyone who owns a SHopbot CNC router most definitely HAS a place here, whether they are running it to build cabinets, signs etc on a commercial basis, or in their home or garage for fun or pleasure. Its a Shopbot forum after all.

And I am pretty sure Brian is a woodworker by trade - and having read a ton of his projects here, he is doing a lot of varied work. One of the guys who I value input from.

joe

06-26-2016, 08:54 PM

outcaststudios

06-26-2016, 09:12 PM

haha this guy (joe)was totally NOT at all helpful to me when i asked the simplest question. in fact, he was borderline aggressive and dismissive as well as making broad assumptions based on nothing about my work ethic and expectations...and it turned out at the end of the thread he didnt have any experience at all with what i was asking and the advice he gave me was not even remotely helpful. i guess some people are just insecure about their abilities, and so they feel the need to put others down? i at least know i am always going to learn, since i am usually open to other peoples suggestions when they are given out in a reasonable manner ,and that i am absolutely not ever going to know as much as id like to about anything,including humans on the internet.

Ajcoholic

06-26-2016, 09:14 PM

Andrew,

It's been a long standing requirement on this forum to refrain from personal attacks. Over the past few months I've been the subject of several of these and as a gentleman didn't respond. I could care less if anyone agree's with me on any topic and that's a thin excuse you give for breaking the rules.

You are correct about my lack of interest in helping the hobby minded. Help yourself. I'm interested in helping those guys in the sign trade. It's a difficult business and few guys are able to make it. That's my only interest on the forum. So I mainly stay in this area. There's not much commitment from the Hobby guy. They don't have a family to support. The successful cabinet shops aren't very active helping the hobby minded. You for example seldom post photo's or creative how to steps for the 401 crowd,

I too can break the rules if that's what you fellows want. This is my second request to cut it out. No more personal analysis.

Joe,
I have LOTS and LOTS of how to posts, detailing how I have built furniture like chairs and so forth, kids furniture, etc. The fact you keep saying I seldom post, shows me you don't/havent read what I do post.

If you are interested in signage, then why would you post in this thread, which is not in the sign forum and has absolutely nothing to do specifically with signs? Just wondering.

I am not trying to attack you. I am trying to explain to you that you can say something several ways - you sometimes come across as, well, not very nice. WHat else can I say?

Maybe re read some of you posts, and put yourself in the other persons place. I doubt you will "get" what I am trying to say. As stated previously... its not what you say but how.

Ajcoholic

06-26-2016, 09:19 PM

My father, who is a master craftsman and at nearly 86, still works a full 6 to 7 hours a day in the shop (with one of my former employees). He would spend hours helping guys who came into the shop and needed advice building a complex set of stairs, or railing or designing a kitchen.

My dad is a class act. Always out to help the other shop guys who were our competition, but needed advice too. I never saw him tell anyone who came to our shop needing advice to "get lost"... I guess I feel that we are all in this together and can only be better off if we all help one another.

No matter how experienced you are - remember there is someone who is that much more experienced and has a bigger shop, makes more $$, has more employees etc. If only the "biggest and best" posted here, this would be a pretty small forum.

joe

06-26-2016, 09:30 PM

Outcaststudios

Gotta laugh on that one.

Hope everyone gets a chance to read this post on Vcarv undersigns. This guy claims to have built lots of signs, see the photo's, but doesn't know the first thing about finishing. This is the kind of posting I stay away from. Looks from here as if he's clueless.

Once again I'm wanting to help the sign shop folks.

www.normansignco.com (http://www.normansignco.com)

GI am looking to Vcarve my first HDU sign. the size is 47.5"x77.5" out of 1" 15lb HDU. Looking for some help on bit types and tips? was thinking about routing .25"-.3875" depth?

genek

06-26-2016, 09:36 PM

Andrew,

It's been a long standing requirement on this forum to refrain from personal attacks. Over the past few months I've been the subject of several of these and as a gentleman didn't respond. I could care less if anyone agree's with me on any topic and that's a thin excuse you give for breaking the rules.

You are correct about my lack of interest in helping the hobby minded. Help yourself. I'm interested in helping those guys in the sign trade. It's a difficult business and few guys are able to make it. That's my only interest on the forum. So I mainly stay in this area. There's not much commitment from the Hobby guy. They don't have a family to support. The successful cabinet shops aren't very active helping the hobby minded. You for example seldom post photo's or creative how to steps for the 401 crowd,

I too can break the rules if that's what you fellows want. This is my second request to cut it out. No more personal analysis.
I find it hard to understand how you find fault with everyone that is not a sign maker. I find painting signs very meaningless work. I find it so simple that I farm out the signs I make to our Local High School Art class and have two Young ladies that Paint them for me. . I make several signs a Month.. but my main Income is from making wooden Kitchen Items. We ship out on the average $6,000.00 plus a month. We are currently shipping to 41 states. My business started out as a hobby after I retired from the Military. There will be and always will be better ways of doing things. This forum is open for people to share ideas, and experience so that others can learn. You sold your cnc.. so why make the comments you do. You go looking for things to make fun or find fault in.

joe

06-26-2016, 09:46 PM

Out of defense,

I agree with you when you say, "I find it hard to understand".

Not interested in making spoons, forks and knives because I find it "Meaningless Work.

I'm only interested helping guys in the sign trade. So leave me along!

Brian Harnett

06-26-2016, 10:12 PM

Brian,

You're way out of line. I don't belong to any other forum. I'll call you out on that. As a matter of fact I've never attacked you personally and don't appreciate your assertions. The reason I welcome input by Joe is he's an active commercial guy. Everyone benefits when we exchange critical evaluations of materials and equipment. It's important to listen to guys who are in production and know what they are talking about.

What makes this forum valuable is the exchange of idea's and techniques. Because one business finds a vacuum of no use, and states to, should not open them up to negative comments like yours. So stop it. I'm capable of critical verbal handouts if that's what you want. Lets call it a truce on the personal attacks. What do you say?

Joe the last was few years ago but not the first, you jumped on me not long after I got my machine on this forum around 2004 about the software I was using. I have a really good memory.

The last time was on the 3d sign forum why you went off on me I don't really know why neither did the moderators that messaged me. But that was the last time I bothered to post my work.

Their is a huge difference between constructive criticism and just
being a TROLL.

Oh And about bashing shopbott that was on the 3d sign forum go ahead say you did not try to steer away people from buying them. "Keep away from the blue machines" among more specific sayings.

JimmyD

06-26-2016, 10:21 PM

Message to Forum Moderator------------------

Please, can you please close this thread? The catalyst here will not stop, no matter how nicely or rudely asked. This is inappropriate, a waste of time and serves no positive purpose. Please make it go away. Yes, I know I could mind my own business, but sometime, someone has to step up and ask for it to cease.

Jim

outcaststudios

06-26-2016, 10:34 PM

yes i agree. its difficult to have a forum that is supposed to be helpful and supportive of people who are here to learn new things, when certain people always feel the need to have melt downs and attack them for 'not knowing' something,and make learning whatever it is they want to learn,really difficult. a 'straw man' argument is a way of trying to make some one 'look bad' so that their opinion is discounted. that is usually a ploy used by someone who has no real argument,because, if they did have a valid point then it would be obvious to the group. it is not obvious to the group why poster joe is behaving this way. mods should lock/delete threads like this so they dont devolve into a circuitous out-chest-puffing festival.