Patience has paid off

[Tom Bachman]

Well, my patience, I believe, has paid off. After three years of looking, I believe I found my machine. Even though I would love to buy a newer, PRS machine, they always tend to be out of my price range and or too far for me to justify travelling for. I located a 48x96 PRT standard machine with a vacuum table & pump. It has a Porter-Cable router motor and it comes with a computer and Aspire loaded. When I located it, the ad said he wanted $7k. When I finally got through to him on email he sent pictures and some additional information and saying his new machine was coming in and needed the room, so he dropped the price to $4k. With that type of price, I'm not sure that I can go wrong.

So when I go to look at it, what should I look for? Anything specific to the PRT I should know? I'm just waiting for him to get back to me with some answers to some questions I had for him, but I'm 90% sure I'm going for this one.

[Brian Harnett]

I have a 48x96 2003 prt machine, I did upgrade to a prs controller years ago quite a bit smoother with it. I do custom work and small production runs its paid for itself many times.

[Tom Bachman]

I received a bit more information after my post last night. The current owner has had it for 6 years. He bought it from a friend (the original owner) who used it very sparingly. The current owner has used it to cut ply, MDF, acrylic, PVC and hardwoods. He did not use it all day everyday in a production situation.He's selling it due to the fact he has bought a new faster machine. He's not sure whether or not he upgraded the board, he's calling Shopbot today to get info about what all he had done. He did buy a new Porter Cable router about a year ago. The machine is still setup and I will be able to run it before I make my final decision.

I am going to find a trailer today so when I go look at the machine, I, more than likely, will be able to bring it home. Once that happens, I'll have a lot more questions.

[tri4sale]

Tom

Is it on a wooden or metal frame? I've looked at a few older machines that were on a wooden base, and I'd decided against those, too worried the table would adjust based on humidity levels in shop.

[Tom Bachman]

It's a metal frame.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/toms94/other/IMG_0040_zpsxkndrhyb.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toms94/media/other/IMG_0040_zpsxkndrhyb.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/toms94/other/IMG_0042_zpsyskf8vry.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toms94/media/other/IMG_0042_zpsyskf8vry.jpg.html)

[Brian Moran]

A point to note is that if he is keeping his Aspire licence for use with his new machine, you won't legally be allowed to use it with the current machine. If it is going to be transferred with the PRT, you will both need to contact Vectric to arrange transfer of the licence.

Brian

[tlempicke]

Just to amplify that a bit.

Even if you get a copy of the program that is un-licensed it would be worth your money to buy the correct thing from vectric.

Shopbot (IMHOP) wouldn't be Shopbot without Vectric. At least for me.

Here is why

I owned one of the very first Shopbots back in the '90s. I was trying to run it using some software that I paid an pretty good price for, but it was clunky and I was spending all of my time fighting with the computer and making scrap to stoke the fireplace with. I am now on my fourth machine and Aspire makes all of the difference. I sit down at the computer and reliably produce what I have in mind. Between the Shopbot operating program and Aspire the learning curve is pleasant and rewarding enough that you are likely to stick with it.

I am saying that in spite of the fact that I am a bit PO'd at them for the minute because they will not support my installation. I am using Parallels on a Mac operating system.

Just be aware that the design software you use is every bit as important as your machine. The training and support you will get from Shopbot and Aspire is one of the major reasons you have elected to go this route so don't stop a few feet short of your goal.

[Tom Bachman]

A point to note is that if he is keeping his Aspire licence for use with his new machine, you won't legally be allowed to use it with the current machine. If it is going to be transferred with the PRT, you will both need to contact Vectric to arrange transfer of the licence.

Brian

Yes, I understand this as this is what I had to do when I purchased the used machine for the school. We paid for the transfer and made it legal. I'm assuming that I am getting the license as well.

[tri4sale]

Yes, I understand this as this is what I had to do when I purchased the used machine for the school. We paid for the transfer and made it legal. I'm assuming that I am getting the license as well.

Be sure the license is transferable, I was told once that the license can only be transferred once time. So if he is second owner, there is a chance license was transferred once already.

[srwtlc]

It looks to be around 2000 - '01 vintage. The biggest ding is going to be the direct drive motors that were used then. Slow and low res. You'll struggle to get good edge quality, especially on circles and angled cuts. Max feed rate will be about 3"/sec if all is rolling freely. If it's using the original controller, be sure that all the drivers are functional as they had a habit of 'blowing out' and needing replacing and at this time, that may be an issue to have repaired. If you get a different controller, you'll be looking for different motors too. One gauge of wear is to check the v-rails. Are they worn down and 'mushroomed' anywhere along them, more wear in one place than others. They can be 'dressed' if done properly to true it back up. Inspect the pinions for wear due to use or no lube. Loose adjustment on turnbuckles and Y car hold down v-rollers. Condition of the PC router. The vac pump is probably the only bonus in the package.

If speed and cut quality isn't an issue, it may be fine and the price is good enough. I had one of that vintage for seven years and the first thing to replace was the direct drive motors for some 3.6:1 gearbox ones. Next was a controller, but it worked and paid for itself many times over and was sold for what I paid for it. Hey, if you buy it and need a controller for it, I have a Mach3 box that I'd sell ya. ;-)

[Tom Bachman]

Yes, that is the vintage he told me it was. Speed isn't of the greatest importance to me, heck I've got time. How much to upgrade to the new motors? And how much work is involved? How does that control box compare to the 4g shopbot?

I'll probably just use it the way it is for a while, but thinking about upgrading it is already in the back of my mind.

[bob_dodd]

I have 3 Oriental PK296A1A-SG3.6 motors , I used them on a Shopbot PRT , The SG stands for STRAIGHT GEAR Shopbot uses a Tapered Hub Gear I Believe , What this means is a couple of thousands of inch more play with the SG gears, also 6 25 tooth gears $75.00 shipping included to lower 48 states
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28982&stc=1
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28980&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28981&stc=1

[Tom Bachman]

Bob, is that $75/each? Three motors is what it takes? For some reason I was thinking the 96" axis used one on each side....?

[bob_dodd]

Tom
$75.00 for everything , the X axis has 2 motors , the Y axis has 1 , You would still need 1 motor for the Z axis , I think sometimes they used a 7.2 motor on the Z
if interested send a private message
Bob

[Tom Bachman]

Pm sent on motors.

[curtiss]

Congrats, Once you get set up, the first thing to make is a "retired sign" for your shop. It looks like this...

RETIRED
...Don't want to...
...Don't have to...
...Can't make me.

[scottp55]

LOVE it Curtiss!! :)
GOTTA make myself one of those:)
scott

[Tom Bachman]

OK, I've got it home. I leveled the table, using my laser level, and hooked it up. The control software looks a little different and works a bit different. Older version of machine. I'll have to learn the commands. The bot responds to my commands....I had to figure out where 0.0.0 was (catty corner from where I was expecting). I called Shopbot today and got the lowdown on my machine, 4th owner, built in 2001, nothing major....

I created a simple test file with the aspire that was on the computer. zeroed the Z axis, saved the file as Shopbot inch .shp and then ran the file.

OK, I was expecting a much more smooth cut. What I got was very "jumpy", not smooth. Is this common for PRT machines? (I'm guessing not) Is it because of the direct drive motors? (My guess maybe, but I doubt it) Is it a problem with wear? (my guess, possibly) Would upgrading to the 296 motors Bob showed in a post below help the problem? (my guess maybe) Will upgrading to the 4G board solve the problem? (again my guess is Maybe) I was expecting more like what I got from the Buddy we had at school.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/toms94/Maintenence/IMG_0486_zpsgqa0tbui.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toms94/media/Maintenence/IMG_0486_zpsgqa0tbui.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/toms94/Maintenence/IMG_0485_zpsqsufvbec.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toms94/media/Maintenence/IMG_0485_zpsqsufvbec.jpg.html)

HELP !

[Tom Bachman]

I can live with SLOW! I can't live with jumpy! I need help!

[Tom Bachman]

Those pictures read COYOTE CABINETS in a rather weird font.

[srwtlc]

Drop a motor or two out and take a close look at the wear on the pinions. If it has never had any, get some. Next, make sure that all the pinions are tight on the motor shaft. Tighten those set screws to the point of bending/breaking your allen wrench, then check them again. They have a habit of coming loose and then the pinions slip on the shafts. Some blue thread locker can be used. Replace the motors and make sure that the turnbuckles are adjusted properly. I believe it was 2.5 turns from no slack. Try your cut again.

How do the motors sound? If they sound like they're stripping and not moving properly, you could have some blown drivers.

Try just some straight cuts like rectangles circles.

Is it running the old DOS version? That would be a blast from the past! ;-)

[Tom Bachman]

I think I figured out, at least part of, the problem. Running the y axis runs smoothly and quietly, the z axis is also smooth and quiet. The motor on the side furthest away (48y side) is warm after just a bit of moving. And the gear on the near side (0y) is worn pretty badly. I think it is time to buy those motors/gears from Bob.

Should all the motors be the same? Bob has three, I was thinking putting those on the X and Y, leaving the Z as it is. Or should I purchase another one like the rest?

I checked the rails and bearings and everything there seems to be ok, so hopefully, the motor exchange will fix the jumpiness.

[Tom Bachman]

Ok, just for giggles, I tried moving the gantry with only the far side x motor attached, I found that it moves smoothly and quietly up and down the length of the machine. Does this indicate the motor is bad or the driver? I received the motors from Bob today, Thank you Bob. The gears that he sent are larger diameter than the ones on the machine currently. The motors also, are of different mounting bolt style....both in spacing and the fact that the motor has female thread, indicating that the machine bolts need to come through from the mounting plate. Where currently, the bolt go through a flange on the motor and thread into the mounting plate on the machine.

Any help you can give me here would be greatly appreciated.

[bob_dodd]

Tom If you shut off the control box ( important ) and change (swap ) the X1 and X2 Plugs on the back of the control box and see if it runs rough or smooth , this will let you know if the driver is good or bad ,, only have one motor engaged as they might not run in right direction ,, and twist Y car
I think the A or B axis can be programed to run the X axis if the driver is bad , will look through paper work if I can find it

[Bob T]

Responding to the pic of your text, I would add that when doing your first tests you may want to go with a new bit, use something that is more carve-able than pine (mdf) , and text that is more normal, easier to evaluate

[Tom Bachman]

Responding to the pic of your text, I would add that when doing your first tests you may want to go with a new bit, use something that is more carve-able than pine (mdf) , and text that is more normal, easier to evaluate

That was a brand new 60* V bit, but it was REALLY jerky. The gear, I found later, was worn badly.

[Tom Bachman]

Tom If you shut off the control box ( important ) and change (swap ) the X1 and X2 Plugs on the back of the control box and see if it runs rough or smooth , this will let you know if the driver is good or bad ,, only have one motor engaged as they might not run in right direction ,, and twist Y car
I think the A or B axis can be programed to run the X axis if the driver is bad , will look through paper work if I can find it


Thanks Bob, I'll try that tomorrow.

Any idea on the motor issue, as far as how I am to mount the new motors? The mount is different. Thanks for all the help.

[bob_dodd]

Tom
Looked at your pictures you posted of your machine , you might be able to adapt , by drilling new holes , or by making them out of aluminum plate , or a botter may have some extras , willing to part with them , If I still had my machine I would have made them for you , I made a DXF file of a mount but could not post it here ,will email it to youhttp://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29024&stc=1

[Tom Bachman]

Thanks again Bob. I'll either figure out how to machine them myself or maybe someone here has a set they aren't using or willing to machine them for me. Right now, I need to figure out if it is a motor or a driver problem.

[Tom Bachman]

Well, I swapped the the cables for X1 and X2 and get nearly the same reaction from the other motor. So, I'm guessing the problem lies in the control board. I have an unused connector and I'm guessing that this is the one some were talking about re-assigning, but I have no idea how that is done. Any help would be appreciated.

[bob_dodd]

Tom
My PRT control box was set up this way , but back then things changed a lot , would also talk to Frank at Shopbot , with that said;;
The X channel that you are having trouble with ,, on the printed circuit board right next to the grey Wago connector there are two voltage didoes ( check the numbers on them on internet , should be rated around 48 volts +- ) These are there I believe to protect the drivers , when the X carriage gets moved / pushed by hand when control box was off, to keep back feeding voltage from damaging the driver , these are installed right next to the grey connector , one band will be facing down and the other up , with the power off to control box , remove one leg from PC board or cut one leg to disconnect , if motor works ok replace these diodes as they are damaged

[Tom Bachman]

I re-designed the motor plate and will try to get them cut out of aluminum plate, using the schools' ShopBot.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/toms94/other/motor%20plates_zps6hxm5bl4.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toms94/media/other/motor%20plates_zps6hxm5bl4.jpg.html)

Just wondering on the rewiring of the motors. Below are the pictures of the motors as they came off the machine. Looks to me, like they were I wired the exact same. Am I missing something?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/toms94/other/X1%20motor%20-wires_zpsr7xvf6cz.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toms94/media/other/X1%20motor%20-wires_zpsr7xvf6cz.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/toms94/other/X2%20motor%20-wires_zpsiwvtqufz.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toms94/media/other/X2%20motor%20-wires_zpsiwvtqufz.jpg.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/toms94/other/y%20motor%20-wires_zpsw7vol4ez.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toms94/media/other/y%20motor%20-wires_zpsw7vol4ez.jpg.html)

Any help on which wires to use in which order, on the new PK296 motors, would be greatly appreciated.

[Tom Bachman]

The Control board as it sits in the box.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/toms94/other/Control%20board%20connection%202_zpsagro1zb4.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toms94/media/other/Control%20board%20connection%202_zpsagro1zb4.jpg.h tml)

The connection of the Z-zero plate wires which doesn't work. Not sure if this is connected to the correct input. Does this make any sense to anyone? It appears to me that the Z-zero is connected to the same input as something else. Is this the way it is supposed to be?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/toms94/other/Control%20board%20z-zero%20connection_zpspfhuods7.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/toms94/media/other/Control%20board%20z-zero%20connection_zpspfhuods7.jpg.html)

[Tom Bachman]

Well,I got the motors mounted and wired them just like the motors they replaced. My next issue was it with the gear reduction of the new motors, it would only move about 1/6 of what I input. I don't know how to tell the controls that I have different motors with larger pinion gears. it did move, and moved reasonably smooth jumped a bit. After pondering that for a few days I decided today to put the original motors back on and swapped the X1 and Y motors to check against the bad motor. It worked a little better but still moans and groans on the X1 side. Then, I came up with the brilliant idea that I should swap the rack gears from the far end to the near. That wasn't as easy as I had thought it might be, but I got them swapped and did a trial cut again. A little better, but still the X1 side continues to be a little "jerky". Making me think, I might have a bad rack.

Still looking for help on this. I would love to get this running.

[tlempicke]

Tom
You are really close to your goal. Go back to the point where your machine was running smoothly. Within the Shopbot control program is a correction factor to take care of your problem. If you think about it you will realize that the program had to be written to accommodate different motors and gearing so there is a built in correction factor. Each time you start the software it loads the proper correction factors along with other parameters. As a for instance I have two machines, one that I use Summers (A 48 inch Buddy) and one that I use winters ( A desktop) I carry the same laptop back and forth so that I have all of my cutting files and each time I do that I have to re-load the right setup file.
Unfortunately the Shopbot drive program was written so that to get to the parts of it that you need you have to be connected to a Shopbot and I am at home so I can not access that part of the program.
From memory,
You need to find the correction factors for your setup. At one point in time I built my own machine and used a shopbot box to drive the motors. I was able to figure out the correction factor using a dial indicator and moving the gantry, but that was a long time ago. I just looked at the Quick Start guide and it is written for the newer machines even though it handles correction factors in the same way.
At any rate you can generate a correction factor for just about any configuration possible.

[bob_dodd]

Tom
In the Shopbot command console under "VALUES" goto "UNIT VALUES" change the X, Y, Z to 1833.465 this is for 3.6 with 25 Tooth pinion gear , or change to 2291.831 if using 3.6 with 20 tooth gear , this should get it to move the right distance , if not change these number larger or smaller till the proper distance is achieved
Looking at the picture of control box I only see 4 heat sinks , so I do not think you have the extra channel installed
The Z zero , I would try removing the other wires and just leaving the Z zero connected and see if it works that way ,
The X1 issue ( when connecting or disconnecting any wires in control box have it turned off ) try connecting the X1 wire to the Y channel , check direction of rotation of motor , if not moving in proper rotation , change the unit value by adding a - before number (-1833.465 ) and see if it moves smoothly , could be a bad driver , also check the wire going to the X1 for being damaged Hope this helps
check this post http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?10490-circuit-board-repair

[Tom Bachman]

Today I decided to create a new mounting plate, the one I built before wasn't quite right. So I got it built, attached the 3.6 motor, installed on the X1 side. Changed the value for the X axis to 1833.4648 and because I didn't have two mounting plates made yet (I was making sure my second design worked right), I removed the X2 motor from the equation. So in order to test and see if the new value was right (or at least close) I fired up the box and did an MX 10. The computer showed the x axis moving, but the machine didn't budge, not even a sound. So thinking I didn't have the Wago properly set up, I rechecked that my connections were good there. Tried again, Except MX 0. (as the software thought it was at X 10) The computer showed it moving to X0 but, just like before, NOTHING.

Thinking I might have something else wrong I did a MY 10. she moved right over to the correct location.......Huuuummmmmmmm. So I thought, I'll take the motor off X1, reverse the mounting plate and put it on the X2 side. I do so, and then run MX 10, smooth as silk moves to the correct location (I didn't really check the measurement, close anyway).

It then DAWNED on me, that the X1 side is not working at all, thus, the moaning and groaning and jerkyness is because the motor is basically being dragged up and down the rack.

I then decided to run the same file I've been running as a test, which is my business logo. Now mind you I did this with just the X2 motor attached to the machine. But it ran it very clean and smooth...especially considering doing it with 1 X axis motor.

Now, I must figure out where the problem lies, on the board, or the wiring between the control box and motor.

As a second thought here I don't think the value is quite right as the letters are quite elongated as compared to the way they look in the design program.

I'm getting closer! Any help or suggestions you may have for me as I troubleshoot this latest discovery would be greatly appreciated!

[bob_dodd]

Tom
( control box off ) if you have a ohm meter unhook X1 wire from control box and motor ring out this wire green to green and so on , if wire checks out ok ,,Remount the 3.6 motor on X1 side , connect wire to motor , unplug X1 and X2 from control box (turned off ) now plug the X1 wire into X2 position on control box , now try to move gantry , if it moves than the X1 driver is most likely faulty,, http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?10490-circuit-board-repair
read this thread as it mentions a repair place for the control board ,
hope this helps
Bob

[Tom Bachman]

The first picture is using the original motors but after I swapped racks end for end. The cut was smoother and less jumpy, but the groan and moan were still there. At least the cut was recognizable.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29100&d=1476313955&thumb=1&stc=1

This picture is of the one I did with only the X2 motor (3.6 gear reduction) engaged and after adjusting the X value unit

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29101&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1476313955
As far adjusting the X unit value, I did an M2 10,10. I then measured the distances it actually moved 12 5/8, 10. Then I calculated 10 (the distance it was supposed to move) divided by 12 5/8 (the distance it actually moved, and came up with .7920. So I multiplied .7920 x 1833.4648 (the unit value I had programmed into the X unit value) and came up with 1452.1041. Before inputting that value into the program I moved the machine back (JH) to 0, 0, 1. I then did another M2 10, 10, and measured both X and Y for locations. This time the machine went straight to 10, 10.

Determined that I had the values set right, I made the cut that you see in the lower picture. Now the picture was taken with my phone, and the perspective is off a bit. The "C"s are identical.

[Tom Bachman]

Tom
( control box off ) if you have a ohm meter unhook X1 wire from control box and motor ring out this wire green to green and so on , if wire checks out ok ,,Remount the 3.6 motor on X1 side , connect wire to motor , unplug X1 and X2 from control box (turned off ) now plug the X1 wire into X2 position on control box , now try to move gantry , if it moves than the X1 driver is most likely faulty,, http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?10490-circuit-board-repair
read this thread as it mentions a repair place for the control board ,
hope this helps
Bob

Thank you Bob for replying so quick. I do have an Ohm meter and will do that in the next few days. I'm trying to stay current with my cabinet jobs as well as try to get this going. I'll keep you posted.

If I need to have the board repaired, I'm wondering if I should go ahead and upgrade to a 4G board. What are the pros and cons?

[Tom Bachman]

It appears that the driver for that motor is bad. I think I'm leaning toward having this board repaired. I'll contact the company in the other thread and see what it is going to take.

Thanks for the input.