What's really inside particle board....

[jTr]

I have a batch of "designer" melamine that's destroying bits at an alarming rate. Product is Stevenswood Takase Teak. Bits are the same brand I've used with almost flawless results for years now. Just tuned up/lubed bot for this big run. My Centurion bits only last about 3 sheets and start chipping this dark colored product at about 1 chip per 30". Never had such a problem in 5 years. Last project was Hardrock Maple and worked great.

Examined brand new bit by magnifying with a lupe after 3 sheets, and finding scored/chipped edges on the solid carbide compression edges of bit. Seems there must be a lot more than just sawdust in the core of this batch.....

Anyone have suggestions for a better grade of carbide via another manufacturer, or do I just have to burn an extra couple hundred bucks in tooling to get through this?

Jeff

[scottp55]

Jeff,
from the site"...core materials contains 100% recycled and/or recovered fiber with the option of no added urea formaldehyde in the core or surface "
You seeing any metal filings or chips after the cut? A magnet going through the sawdust show the type of garbage thrown in.
Not much you can do if they're throwing floor sweepings into the vat.
:(
Bummer!
scott

[Burkhardt]

Not cheap, but I suspect a PCD bit would hold up longer, supposedly 25 times the life of carbide:
http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5729-cnc-polycrystalline-diamond-pcd-compression-router-bit-updown-shear-with-carbide-plunge-point-rh-rotation.aspx

[dlcw]

I did a 40 sheet project in melamine about 4 years ago and what I've found destroys bits with melamine is the resin to hold all the stuff together and the melamine skin really eats bits fast. I think on 40 sheets I went thru at least 8 1/4" compression bits and 10 sets of replacement inserts for a 90* bevel cutter. Other then diamond, not sure what would hold up for any length of time with melamine.

[gc3]

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Melamine_Tooling_Issue_Grooves.html
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Tooling_and_Settings_for_Machining_Laminated.html

[harryball]

I found a fork in particle board once. In my experience anything can be in particle board.

[myxpykalix]

My experience has been when not using a dust hood and watching the bit cut, several times i've seen sparks fly off the cut like it was striking bits of metal. I think they throw whatever junk they have into some of this stuff.

[jTr]

I agree- some very strange material ends up in those sheets....

Based on responses and weighing past experience, I think the key is the facing. Not only a print, but has a texture as well, and this is my first experience with the product. I also have seen the groove effect in bits long ago when I was cleaning up melamine on a router table....

The PCD bit looks attractive - actually fairly reasonable for what it is. Only catch is bit diameter, as I'm all batched up for 1/4". Just received a backup supply of bits today- trying a variety of brands and prices -will report whether any of these make a difference.

While I thought of breaking sheets down into groups of three, altering depth of cut to stretch bit life, I've found the tip is suffering the most, so eventually the upcut tip is causing issues on the bottom face as it wears.

Oh well- quote a few hundred more bucks on the next batch of this product to cover tooling.
(gosh, I miss cutting plywood....)

Thanks all!

Jeff

PS: As mentioned in one of the woodweb posts, every time I contact suppliers regarding any QC controls or issues like this, they all say the same thing: "that's strange - I've never seen or heard of this problem before". Makes you want to say: "well then it must not be happening to me now....":rolleyes:

[Tom Bachman]

I've found metal shavings/chunks in particleboard. I too have seen little sparks come off while machining particleboard, both straight particleboard and melamine.

[Ajcoholic]

I have been using Canadian made particle board (90% of my veneers are laid up on 3/4" particle board core) as well as the melamine I use. I go through enough per year to get a good idea of whats what. In my experience the stuff Im buying is very clean, uniform and I have never cut anything odd like metal/stones/etc.

Most of the veneers I use are also made in Ontario, not far from me. The only non-Canadian product I use is some of the newer textured wood grain melamines, or high gloss, and super matte, and they are imported from Europe. Also pretty uniformly clean.

Where are these products manufactured, that you guys are using? USA made or imported?

[bleeth]

Pb comes in all kinds of varieties. My suppliers typically carried a couple different grades as there are plenty out there who only want the cheapest. That stuff is typically less dense and less consistent in content then the quality true cabinet grade product. All my cabinet machining was done with a single 5mm Centurion bit. Typical yield was 20 sheets per bit. Different suppliers carried different brands, but as long as I only bought their better quality (No-touch the cheap import or big box crud) We got smooth cuts and dados.

[jTr]

Andrew - Boise-Cascade is stamped on the sheets, meaning most likely made in USA, though supplier has said they are pulling some out of Canada. It is a wood grain pattern and embossed, pushing $65/sheet. They are sole distributor of this specialty product, so at the mercy of their choice for core, regardless of price.

Also, Andrew, are you cutting with a compression bit on the 'bot, or mainly on your panel saw?

Dave, I also can typically do a full job 15-20 sheets one bit, which is why this has been such a shock.
I took your advice long ago and have been very pleased with Centurion tools, which are the ones getting heavily worn by this batch.

Again, just plodding forward and trying a few other brands of bits, and hoping I may have just had a few rough sheets to start...

jeff

[jTr]

I do have a local mill using our local Black Hills pine to produce PB, melamine and "pre-finished" trims. They go by Dakota Panel and distribute throughout the Menards stores, which they are a subsidiary of. Have a friend who works there, and they swear this is some of the best core going with high demand from many other furniture factories, due to it's high sap content and their process of dosing the face layers with fine dust for a smoother surface to adhere just about anything to. Sadly, they do not produce the embossed stuff. Even worse, I've had terrible luck with their facings. Lots of random tear offs re-pressed onto facings, fold-overs and edge inconsistencies pushing 1/2" + in from edges. Last batch had a hand-print sized bare spot. If they could get the face application process cleaned up, it would be an awesome product. Never had any sparks or stones from the core material itself.

[Michaelodunk]

I'm not sure it there is real Teak in this product but if there is Teak is VERY abrasive.

[Ajcoholic]

Andrew - Boise-Cascade is stamped on the sheets, meaning most likely made in USA, though supplier has said they are pulling some out of Canada. It is a wood grain pattern and embossed, pushing $65/sheet. They are sole distributor of this specialty product, so at the mercy of their choice for core, regardless of price.

Also, Andrew, are you cutting with a compression bit on the 'bot, or mainly on your panel saw?


Dave, I also can typically do a full job 15-20 sheets one bit, which is why this has been such a shock.
I took your advice long ago and have been very pleased with Centurion tools, which are the ones getting heavily worn by this batch.

Again, just plodding forward and trying a few other brands of bits, and hoping I may have just had a few rough sheets to start...

jeff

When I do cut melamine on the CNC I do use either 1/4" or 3/8" mortise compression bits. I do way more veneer (wood) on particle board core, and generally just use a down cut spiral as I use MDF as a spoilboard and it gives a superb bottom cut edge.

I still cut 90% of my stock on the sliding panel saw - use the CNC for oddly shaped pieces (corner shelves, angular stuff, etc) or where I want to cut pockets/mortices annd cut out in one process.

Ive been using some Eggar and some Flakeboard embossed woodgrain melamine this past year. Didnt notice much difference. The Eggar is made in Europe. I am also looking to buy a few other imported boards sold through Richelieu Hardware (Nature+ embossed melamine).

WHat about trying some of those newer bits from Onsrud, FS tool etc with the fancy coatings?

[Gary Campbell]

jTr...
Call Fred at Centurion and ask if he has any of the C6 carbide compressions.

[jTr]

Gary, thanks for recommendation. Fred was very informative, so I'll share what I learned in hopes of helping others:

Fred recommended "HP" or High Performance series. They are only available in 3/8, but may be worth re-calculating my part files to alleviate the problem. "C-6" is in reference to cobalt content of 6% where 10% is normally used. The cobalt component is essentially a binder/filler rather than 100% carbide. He also stressed the importance of collet condition - if problems like this persist, collet replacement can help. Kind of like replacing pinions - they can look good to the eye, yet be worn enough contribute to cut issues. Sensitive products and situations like this require optimal performance from both bit and collet, Finally, 3/8" is going to flex much less than 1/4" as we all can logically expect.

In the future I will develop a standard part file and tool path template for melamine jobs and run the 3/8 bits, provided it proves helpful. In the interest of maximizing quantity of parts, I've always done what most of us do by using a 1/4" bit. However, quality is job one, and what has previously worked is no longer reliable in order to produce optimal results with these newer, more attractive offerings in melamine.

Thanks to all - I will implement a few of these strategies and report what helped the most.

jeff