Who's making cabinets?

[EricSchimel]

Just like the title says, who out there is making cabinets on their ShopBot?

[Tim Lucas]

We do, and more

[jTr]

Cabinets and furniture. Two to three large kitchens a year, multiple built-ins and furnishings fill out the schedule.

Jeff

[EricSchimel]

What's your process currently? Are you using eCabinets, are you drawing them by hand in CAD and bringing them into VCarve/Aspire? or something different altogether?

[jTr]

I'm a ten year Sketchup user. Many times, I've investigated automated cab software - just don't do enough kitchens to justify the investment in learning curves. Further, I feel Sketchup is much better tuned to the wide variety of work I engage in. Just cannot draft items like this conference table as easily in the dedicated cabinet programs.

DXF's exported, brought into VCarve Pro. Yes, it is more cumbersome than the more automated systems, but I enjoy the freedom of this system.
Mozaik is one piece of software I still consider fairly regularly, because it does automate much of the work, yet does so utilizing the Sketchup platform. They seem to have assembled enough plug-ins and written a few of their own to enable all this in Sketchup. Fairly reasonably priced compared to most.

[EricSchimel]

Thanks JTR, so two questions for you (and anyone else who'd like to answer)

If you had the ability to take 3D cabinets that were premade (and adjustable) in SketchUp and go directly to your machine, skipping CAM altogether would that be attractive to you? In other words, you could setup a kitchen and adjust the size and layout of each cabinet by just typing in the dimensions, then you'd press a button and just start loading sheets into your machine...

Second question:

It sounds like you do some cabinets, and a decent amount of custom work. What's the biggest pain point of getting a SketchUp model into VCarve? Is it the segmented curves issue? Excess geometry? Organization/layout of parts that are imported perhaps?

[dlcw]

Just finished my 375th cabinet for the year - 2017. Design the cabinets and layouts in eCabs. Send to ShopBot via SBLink and start cutting. Build my faceframes, drawer boxes and drawer faces in house. Make all the trim work in house. Outsource the doors and applied panels. Do all the finishing in house.

[EricSchimel]

What do you think of eCabinets?

[dlcw]

eCabinets - long and steep learning curve. The length and steepness will depend on how you want to use the program. Some folks make incredible 3D models for customer presentations including lighting, shadowing, accessory addons, etc. Other (like me) use it to design cabinets and place them in a custom layout based on the customers space. The program is very powerful. It is parameter driven. No drag and drop types of operations. You enter specific parameters you want to change and the program takes care of all related parameters and makes the adjustments. You do need to be careful because I've had the program make random changes to part joinery. I specified blind M&T and much to my surprise I end up with a butt joint. Most of this occurs in the Stretchers section of the program. Seems to be some gremlins lurking in there. The cutlists it generates are very helpful for make stuff like faceframes, doors, drawer faces and trim work. For example, every rail and stile is accounted for and you get dimensions for cutting them.

The interface to Shopbot via Shopbot Link is pretty good. There are some rough spots and some things you need to learn how to use when going from screen to cutting parts. For example, when cutting parts, the initial cuts are all climb cuts. Final cuts are conventional cuts. This compensates for the flex in Shopbot machines. Once you get all your cutting files configured and setup for your operation, it runs pretty smooth. I have manual bit change but it is very painless and I think I've gotten to the point that I can manually change bits faster than I've seen ATC's change bits.

Don't expect to install the program and begin designing and cutting perfect cabinets. It will take you time to get up to speed. Thermwood has excellent online training to help you get up to speed faster than I did (no online training at the time). The eCabinets forum is pretty good and you can normally get help there pretty fast from some very talented and experienced users - kinda like the Shopbot forum.

The program is free. Take the plunge and see if it is right for you.

[EricSchimel]

Thanks for the description, that's very helpful!

A few other questions for you:

How important is the construction method to you? IE, every woodworker I've run into has a different way he/she likes to make a cabinet box. Is one of the attractions of eCabinets that you can control how the boxes are made, or do you just do it "there way" and are happy because the program makes the overall job faster?

Also, on a typical kitchen (say around 15 cabinets) how much time are you spending getting eCabinets setup before you can go out to cutting?

[dlcw]

Personally I use the blind M&T construction method. I've used other construction methods and always come back to blind M&T. Like you said, each person likes to do it there way.

As far as getting eCabs "setup" that all depends on how custom the cabinets are. If you build a good base of seed cabinets, which I've been able to do over the last 9 years, I can have something set up and ready to send to the CNC in about 20-30 minutes. If you are starting from scratch having to build each cabinet, its going to take a lot longer. I've done so many cabinets over the years (hundreds and hundreds) for different projects and all those cabinets are in my seed library. I can pretty much pick them and put them into a batch or room layout and go.

My first project took me several days, just because I only had the Thermwood supplied seed cabinets and had to modify each one to my preferences. The longest time seems to be getting cabinets organized and setup in a layout exactly the way the customer wants them. I can normally do that over the course of a few meetings with the customer in front of the computer where we make the changes. I then take all the walls to LDE and print them out with dimensions and have the customer sign each drawing to make sure I haven't forgotten anything and they approve the design.

[nat_wheatley]

If you'll be marketing the software toward professional shops, you'll need to offer construction methods comparable to what they're already using.

[BowenJ]

I picked up my shopbot earlier this year, and then added ecabinets and the SBlink a few months later, all expressly for the purpose of building cabinets. I’ve used them both for other things, but that’s just gravy.

I second everything that @dlcw said. Ecab has a steep learning curve and it takes a lot of time on the front end getting all the parameters and details set up the way you want them, but then once that’s out of the way things become MUCH quicker and easier. If you’re looking into getting ecabinets for business applications I would recommend having a month’s worth of time/budget set aside, just so you have plenty of time to get over the learning curves and fine tune all the parameters you need to. After that it should start paying for itself easily.

I also highly recommend the “ecabinets tips and tricks” channel on YouTube for learning how to get the most out of ecabinets.

[EricSchimel]

So it sounds like once you learn it, eCabinets can be pretty fast a going from design to actually cutting cabinet parts. How custom can you get with it? And at what point is do you end up switching back to something more manual like VCarve or Aspire?

[dlcw]

Once you learn how to manipulate the parameters you can get VERY custom. I've designed more than just cabinets with it. I've designed end tables, hall tables, a gun display cabinet, and other things with it. You just have to learn some of the things beyond cabinet parameters to do these types of things. But the cabinet part is where it shines. You can do layout designs with as much or as little detail as you want. I've seen some layout designs on the Thermwood forums that would rival just about any layout design you could do in Sketchup. The WOW factor for a customer is incredible. But again, this pushes beyond designing and cutting cabinets.

[EricSchimel]

So let me ask you this:

With any purpose built program it's always easy (or should be) to do the thing that it was meant to do. In this case, eCabinets is meant for making cabinets. For doing weird things that aren't cabinets do you find that a very small percentage of people take the time or have the patience to push a program like that to extremes?

Now you mention that eCabinets can do designs and layouts that rival those that are in SketchUp, I'd argue the opposite from a "how easy is it to build something in SketchUp perspective. SketchUp is one of the easiest programs to design in 3D with, but in the CNC scenario it's much harder to get the machining information out of SketchUp and into your CNC... So is that why people would do a custom thing in eCabinets VS SketchUp (or AutoCAD, or Aspire) because the getting the toolpaths and the nesting is easier in eCabinets?

(if I'm wrong on my assumption please do call me out)

[dlcw]

I tried Mosaics addon to Sketchup for doing cabinetry. Tough to figure it out. I've found that to do high quality 3D presentations in Sketchup, you need costly add-ons. With eCabinets, all the lighting controls, lighting placement, shadowing, graduated coloring and lighting, etc. is built right into eCabs. Plus if you do build what you are drawing, it's really nice to click a button and send the cut files to the CNC, have all the cutlists produced for all your inhouse work, track the cost of materials, complete materials list, including hardware, have assembly marks in the pieces to make it easy to assemble the pieces, print all the CNC part labels, print all the CNC cheat sheets to match labels to cuts. Finally if the customer wants to see different door/drawer face then what you are showing them, eCabs can do wholesale changes right on screen. It can do the same with all the materials in your cabinets. The wholesale change feature is HUGE. I have access to all the features, regardless of whether I'm doing a cabinet job or a furniture project that can be done in eCabs. People have designed fireplace surrounds, range hoods, plus a lot more in eCabs. Here are images of things people have done: http://www.thermwood.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=4

I don't know of addons to Sketchup that will do all this. I've been using Sketchup since 2007. I use it for designing furniture and other things I can't do in eCabs. If I'm doing some intricate parts with complex curves and shapes, I use Aspire. For me Sketcchup is more of a program to do concept ideas for customer to be able to look at in 3D (eCabs does this too).

If there was an addon to Sketchup that could do all this, that wouldn't be enough for me to make the switch. The Sketchup/addon would have to do a LOT more to compel me to make the financial and time investment.

Please don't get me wrong. I think Sketchup is a very powerful and useful program (I wouldn't have been using it for 11 years if I didn't think so). But to try and get a general purpose program to do all the things a purpose built program to do is very tough to do. I am using it to design my house which I intend to build some day. That is something that would be very difficult and quite honestly, a waste of time to try and do in eCabs. But I don't build homes, I build cabinetry and furniture. I can show a builder what I want to do in Sketchup and then let him run with the design taking into account all the rules, regulations and requirements when building a house. But the Sketchup house concept is HUGE in helping him get started. I have yet (in 11 years) to have a project that I can't do in eCabs or Aspire.

Just my thoughts and opinions.

[jTr]

Eric,
I had been using sketchup for about 5 years prior to purchasing the shopbot. Therefore, ultimate goal was to convert my sketchup work to send to the shopbot. Not real easy, but as I read the other replies, I can tell you almost all the above can be done, given the right time and plug-ins. I also had several years experience with Cutlist Plus. What a relief to see it interfaced nicely with Sketchup for generating cutlists and nesting of plys so you may quickly generate a bill of materials/pricing for a job estimate. They have improved a bit over the years, and seem to be more and more keen to serving Sketchup users.

I have yet to hear any complaints about the Sketchup screen shots - most all my clients are quite happy with Sketchup and it's basic shadow effects. Really nice to take a photo of their flooring, tile and countertop materials and "paint" them in the room. Plenty of wow factor there.

Were I starting all over, knowing what I know now, I'd likely step into e-cabs. As I've grown in 10 years of business, things are gravitating towards more kitchens than I originally expected.
However, I cannot imagine designing a dining chair in it, which I do fairly regularly. Having set up all the methodology of going from Sketchup to VCPro for part files, I really enjoy staying within that platform. I cannot imagine abandoning Sketchup completely.
As for the age old question of curves from Sketchup to VCP, very simple to smooth them out.

So- questions you need to ask yourself:
- Which program are you most comfortable with, or are you just getting started?
- How complex are your designs typically? (eg: would you rather try designing an arcade cabinet in e-cabs, or Sketchup)
- How many rooms full of cabinetry do you generate per month/year?

All of these will help you focus on where to step. You are very right to research and ask lots of questions, as you are planting the seeds for productivity and creativity for years to come. As DLCW stated - not trying to sway you (too strongly;))either way, we're just trying to help you make a decision best suited to the direction you're aiming with your business. If you are not comfortable with the feel and flow of the design process, your creativity can suffer. Hands down, ecabinets is far easier to automate production. Based on my business experience, I cannot give up the "blank slate" freedom I've grown to appreciate with Sketchup.

Jeff

[jTr]

Testing-
sent reply yesterday and as with another recent post, was informed it must be reviewed by moderator. I see it still has not posted. Is length of reply the issue here?

Getting to a point I may not bother with this forum anymore.

Very disappointing.

Jeff

[EricSchimel]

That's odd as I've never had that happen to me... I know Bill sometimes has to come in and unlock a bunch of posts.. Maybe it will show up soon?

[Tim Lucas]

Eric,

Are you looking for software to use or are you preparing software to be used??

Tim

[EricSchimel]

I've been designing my own cabinets in SketchUp and them importing them into Aspire. This works great for all of the weird one off stuff that I do, and while it works for cabinetry, it's pretty inefficient. I figure there are a lot of people here that have been doing it for years and probably have some good feedback on what works, and what doesn't. Cabinets are a whole different animal than custom stuff...

[jTr]

Eric- Trying another response, as I see you are precisely where I was a few years ago, and still am. There are probably many things we could visit about regarding streamlining the process. Dang- this monitor hiccup is a real pain. Anyhow, years ago, one guy answered my plea for a way to make Sketchup work, and in one post gave me a full breakdown of importing dxfs from Sketchup to VCPro. An incredible help. Would sure like to visit, just hate to draft a few paragraphs only to see them disappear into oblivion.... again.
If you'd like, maybe send a pm - perhaps this is a way to discuss some tricks/techniques . I rarely get a chance to visit with anyone running their business with Sketchup and the Shopbot, so I am interested in a discussion.

Jeff

[jerry_stanek]

Eric- Trying another response, as I see you are precisely where I was a few years ago, and still am. There are probably many things we could visit about regarding streamlining the process. Dang- this monitor hiccup is a real pain. Anyhow, years ago, one guy answered my plea for a way to make Sketchup work, and in one post gave me a full breakdown of importing dxfs from Sketchup to VCPro. An incredible help. Would sure like to visit, just hate to draft a few paragraphs only to see them disappear into oblivion.... again.
If you'd like, maybe send a pm - perhaps this is a way to discuss some tricks/techniques . I rarely get a chance to visit with anyone running their business with Sketchup and the Shopbot, so I am interested in a discussion.

Jeff


Why don't you type it in a word program then copy and paste here

[ken_rychlik]

I have been cabinet building with cnc for a little over 10 years now. Started with v carve, went to the shopbot link when it came out. (I had my share of glitches and issues with the link and it took years for updated). They may be fixed now, but I bailed both on the shopbot and the link. I now use a combination of CPP (I wish he would return emails and support it better) and Vcarve along with a different brand cnc that I won't post here. I still have friends around here and still suggest shopbot as a first machine for anyone looking. I use full dado's so the sides of most cabinets are always the same. Copy paste and cut. With full dado's the streachers, decks, tops, ect are just straight pieces that can be cut on cnc or a table saw as the need arises. There are toolpath templates in vcarve that work like magic. Drop your parts on a sheet, load the toolpath template and hit go. Kind of like an atm machine. :-) When I use cpp I also import to v carve as I like the toolpath options more there. When it all comes down to it, a cabinet is just a box. A drawer is just a box as well. One simplification I did was made all my dado's to where it leaves 1/2 inch of material in the sides. That times 2 is one inch so all streachers are just 1 inch less than the cabinet width. I had customers think that a blind dado looked like no dado or just a butt joint from the front, and they actually like to see that each piece goes into the next. Oh by the way Don, I got away from the 3d stuff. It was time consuming and a front layout of each wall has been working fine to sell with. I have a full sheet of front views of all cabinet types, sizes and appliances. Just drag and drop them on a Vcarve sheet the size of that wall, and move along.

Ken

[Greencarvings]

I have been cabinet building with cnc for a little over 10 years now. Started with v carve, went to the shopbot link when it came out. (I had my share of glitches and issues with the link and it took years for updated). They may be fixed now, but I bailed both on the shopbot and the link. I now use a combination of CPP (I wish he would return emails and support it better) and Vcarve along with a different brand cnc that I won't post here. I still have friends around here and still suggest shopbot as a first machine for anyone looking. I use full dado's so the sides of most cabinets are always the same. Copy paste and cut. With full dado's the streachers, decks, tops, ect are just straight pieces that can be cut on cnc or a table saw as the need arises. There are toolpath templates in vcarve that work like magic. Drop your parts on a sheet, load the toolpath template and hit go. Kind of like an atm machine. :-) When I use cpp I also import to v carve as I like the toolpath options more there. When it all comes down to it, a cabinet is just a box. A drawer is just a box as well. One simplification I did was made all my dado's to where it leaves 1/2 inch of material in the sides. That times 2 is one inch so all streachers are just 1 inch less than the cabinet width. I had customers think that a blind dado looked like no dado or just a butt joint from the front, and they actually like to see that each piece goes into the next. Oh by the way Don, I got away from the 3d stuff. It was time consuming and a front layout of each wall has been working fine to sell with. I have a full sheet of front views of all cabinet types, sizes and appliances. Just drag and drop them on a Vcarve sheet the size of that wall, and move along.

Ken

This is my experience exactly the same as Ken, I did an entire 5000sq ft house full of cabinet, dining room, kitchen, built in pantry, and every closet as a built in, as well as a set of "locker" style cabinets for each family member for the entry way. I did it exactly like Ken.