Want to start new Shopbot-based business, but would like advice/ guidance...

[texasvinny]

Hi Everyone,

I just joined the forum yesterday and this is my first post. I believe this is the correct area to post this, so, here goes!

I recently retired and want to start a CNC business where I produce CNC-carved products for sale. I have a niche area in mind where I've previously created multiple retirement shadow boxes (e.g. military, fireman, police..) without the use of CNC-type tools. I believe that CNC will not only help in the amount of precision and expanded design capability, but also in speed/ volume. In order to do this, I'll need to purchase a Shopbot and I'm eyeing the PRSalpha 48"x96" with Spindle. I understand the cost and my plans are to start with the shadowbox area and potentially expand into other areas with time (Hoping my retirement years extend a ways out yet! :-)). I've been woodworking since high school (35 years ago) and have a complete shop with many differing power tools (e.g. very experienced woodworking) and room to add more.

The questions for which I'd appreciate advice/guidance from those in this group with experience using Shopbot for their personal businesses are these:

(1) In addition to the Shopbot/Spindle/Software costs, what are some of the other costs I'll need to be aware of in getting started?

(2) How long does it take to become proficient with the software for the Shopbot [e.g. VCarve & Aspire (for 3D)]

(3) How long does it take to program/ perfect an advanced 3D design to replicate military-type emblems (e.g. Navy, Army, Marines, etc.)?

(4) What are some of the challenges you've run into in turning CNC Shopbot work into a commercial venture?

While I've woodworked for decades and spent many years as a software programmer, I know that there are always new twists and turns when venturing into new terrain. I certainly appreciate your insights regarding the questions above.

Happy to join the group and I hope I can repay with advice and guidance as I learn more in this area! Thanks!

[Tim Lucas]

Welcome!

I will try to answer some of your questions but I am sure others will have some great insight.

1. Router bits, elect, vacuum hold down or clamps (with clamps get more bits), material.

2. With your background maybe 2-6 months, its not hard to learn the basics and setting up simple tool paths but then to learn the feed rates of bits in different material takes a little more time

3. I don't do much 3D so am not qualified on this

4. My own mistakes and under estimating time.

If you can find someone close to you with a bot try to stop by while they are running a little production it will answer lots of questions

don't be afraid do talk about what you are making- thinking someone may use your ideas- what works for you will work for you but probably not for others.


Hope this helps
Tim

[ken_rychlik]

First suggestion. Buy a few year old machine. (Won't loose as much money if it's not your thing)
(1) Dust collection and Hold down choices to keep the parts from moving.
(2) Get the free demo versions and try them from vectric.com They have training videos also to work through. You can do this at no cost and get an idea if it's for you.
(3) Refer to answer 2
(4) A product that sells is more important than how you make it. CNC is NOT magic. It's just a tool. At first you stare at it while it runs, but after a while it is about as exciting as watching paint dry. When you give it stupid instructions, it follows perfectly. Small parts are a challenge to hold in place. I have a last supper 3d file that I run. It's about a 10x18 plaque. It takes 10 hrs on the machine. I can't make any money selling them at that rate. 2D v carved signs are easier to make money at. Less time on the machine and they still look good.
There are lots of slightly used machines for sale and for good reason. It's not for everyone.
For me it has been a life saver. I build cabinets, and mine is a workhorse.

[Gary Campbell]

All of the above are good. Especially to get going on the design software. Here are some averages:


http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30920&stc=1

[texasvinny]

Tim, Ken, Gary, Thanks to all three of you for taking the time to share your wisdom and thoughts on my question about the Shopbot business realm. Most assuredly appreciate your guidance given your experience and background in the area!

Tim - I had not thought of the feed rate for the bits in different species of wood. I'm guessing I'll need to gauge how fast/slow, given the wood I'm working with for a particular project...or possibly there is a chart that shares others' learnings in this area that I can go by.

Ken - Given the cost of new Shopbots, I can see the value of the cost savings in buying used. My concern in buying 'used' would be why the person is selling and is the machine going to work fine (it will still have a hefty price tag, probably). Is there a site where used Shopbots are typically advertised? Appreciate your comment about the time to run the 'Last Supper' design and how that impacts sales volume/ profit....Food for thought on my end!

Gary - Given your obvious training background, the information on your side is golden! Will help for me to mentally level-set that Rome won't be built in a day and not lose enthusiasm! :-)

[dlcw]

I'll throw in my experience here as well (two cents worth anyway):

1). This one is tough to quantify. In addition to what others have already stated, you will have a high cost of wasted material and broken bits as you learn how to operate your machine. Another high cost is trying to learn by trial and terror versus using this forum to bounce ideas off. Another big cost is YOUR TIME. You will have to invest a LOT of time into learning the software, learning the interactions between software and hardware and the things you can do with YOUR machine to make it perform better. Each machine is different and it takes time to figure out what makes your machine as efficient as possible. Feed rates and spindle machines for my machine will be different then your machine. You will need to learn what your machines sweet spots are. That takes TIME, and lots of it.

2). What is your current level of knowledge of CAD/CAM software and how/what it is used for, etc. This will be your baseline. Each person starts with a different baseline depending on their experience to date. For simple 2D vector work, you can become good at it pretty quickly. Now, to learn all the intricacies of the software and different ways to make it do things better and faster, that takes more time. For example, when you import a JPG file and covert it to a 2D vector file. The software does not create curves. It creates segments of straight line that look like a curve. Cutting these segmented straight lines is slow and hard on the machine. So you need to know how to node edit, efficiently, to create curves from segmented lines. Each node in a 2D or 3D file invokes a change in cutting for the machine. It will be determined by how fast you can grasp the concepts and learn the features you need.

3). Not a 3D person. Working on it though. The Vectric forum is a great place to get advice and help for 3D work. Their are some REAL geniuses that hang out there, and some of them are here too.

4). You need to understand what YOUR costs are to do business. Like Ken said, don't get hung up on the CNC being some sort of magic do all creation. It is JUST a tool in your shop like all your other tools. You need to take off your woodworkers hat and put on a business hat to figure out how you can make each tool in your shop contribute to the bottom line of your company. Purchase prices, maintenance, bits, blades, accessories, learning time investment, waste, etc. You need to know what your costs are for the business - utilities, insurance, vehicles, administration, sales and marketing, shipping, time cost to troubleshoot machine/software problems (production loss), accounting fees, legal fees, permitting (if required), etc. When you get a good handle on these numbers, and others, you will get a better idea of what you need to charge for your work to set it apart from being another Santa's Workshop. Look at how other woodworkers price in your area. Don't play the game of trying to underbid them (unless you can still make a reasonable profit). When you go down that rat hole, you cheapen your value and the value of other craftsman in your area. When going into the "product line" business, you have to have a really good idea of quantities you can expect to sell versus how much it costs you to make them. What do raw materials cost, storage of raw materials prior to use, production cost, inventory storage, inventory distribution, marketing, etc. What most woodworkers find, that want to go from hobby to a viable business, is they have to start thinking like a business person and not a woodworker. As you get more and more experience, you will refine your production process, as well as streamline other costs for your business. This is a cost savings to you. You need to put on your business hat to decide whether those cost savings are passed on as product price reductions or more profit per piece. And that will depend on what your target market will bare. Do you reduce the cost, thus widening your market and customer base or do you increase your profit, maintaining market and customer base with a lower chance of expanding. It's tough business decisions you will need to make, and they have nothing to do with woodworking.

So a background of woodworking does not automatically translate into successful business ventures. I've got 50+ years of woodworking experience. I went to a local business college and took classes on business (I already knew the woodworking part). It was a big investment in my education but has really paid off. It opened my eyes to the fact that just being a very experience woodworker does not make a business owner.

Remember to use this and other forums as you start your new adventure. People here will help, if they can. It's a great group! But remember, this forum is Shopbot owners. It is not a business forum. Some are very successful business owners who happen to use a CNC in their business.

Best of luck!! :)

[Brady Watson]

Lots of great advice given in this thread. I'll add a few nuggets...

Everyone here has their own MO for investing in CNC technology. It's sexy, has a certain mystique about it and it has the possibility to open up a whole new realm of possibilities not previously available. It can be very liberating & put an end to creative frustration. You might even make a few bucks along the way - while you get 'paid to play'. I've been doing this professionally, as a job shop (whatever comes through the door, 2D, 3D etc) for 17 years. It isn't easy by any means, but can be very rewarding. After running these tools for that long, I have no reservations about calling a rose a rose. These tools are nothing more than glorified table saws or router tables. They are capable of doing some amazing things, provided that you, the captain, can properly steer the machine to the goal line.

When it comes to an 'innocent robot' - they are only as good as the instructions you give it. That is to say, the (CAM) - or toolpath instructions sent to the machine can either create a masterpiece or a pile of scrap. The act of cutting on a CNC is the easy part. About 99% of the work is in the design/toolpath instructions & answering the most important question: "How am I going to hold this material down to resist the forces of cutting?"

In terms of 2D or 3D work - There is no steadfast schedule on how long it will take to master. You must master 2D drawing before you can effectively do 3D design from scratch. The 3D tools rely on underlying 2D shapes. There are many quick and easy paths to cutting 2D and 3D designs. You can purchase ready to cut 2D or 3D designs, which take out the design creation from the equation. This is something relatively easy to do, even for someone very new to CNC work. Vectric has done a very good job with their training materials covering topics from the noob to intermediate level. Once you get beyond these basics however, you're pretty much on your own. There aren't any training materials or seminars that I am aware of (there could be...but nobody wants to pay for them) - that will take your skill level up to a professional level. You need to take yourself there...enduring the frustrations, ah-ha moments and breakthroughs along the way.

You have to be really good with the computer. You have to understand every aspect of the machine, what it does, what it needs and what to look out for and do when things go wrong. You gotta know how to work your material - wood, metal, plastic; whatever it is. It is a long learning process THAT NEVER ENDS! I am still learning every day and getting better and better as I go. It takes a lot of confidence and good decision making to be successful. It certainly isn't for everyone...just like running a table saw isn't for everyone, right? Thankfully there are forums that can provide you support and check your sanity from time to time....but I mentioned confidence and faith in yourself because most of the time you'll be in YOUR little world, not able to explain to the MRS what the problem is - and it will be up to you to save yourself. There will be times you'll want to cry. There will be times you're looking for a hand to high five....Be patient with yourself.

Confidence is also important when it comes to taking risks and making money. Nearly all noobs to CNC routing sheepishly price their work too low and make excuses for their work. Take whatever price you think it should be and multiply it by 3 or 4 times. That will get you in the ballpark. If you're too cheap you won't make money AND the big clients won't hire you because you're too cheap. Crunch numbers and make sure you're going to make money. Many jobs aren't worth doing because I would be paying the customer to take the parts away. Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. Only experience can help you with pricing & knowing what to turn down. It's like a woman walking down the street. She's either hot or not. Nobody needs to tell you which one it is. Selecting work and pricing is a lot like that.

When you get your machine - DO. Go through all the tutorials and DO. Learn & try out every toolpath strategy - even if it is on boring shapes to understand what they can do. PLAY around while watching TV in CAD. Draw whatever your creative mind can come up with. SEE what you are made of in this dept. Don't give up - ever. Failure is not an option. You're only beat if you say so. By not giving up you get breakthroughs and grow in your abilities - just like any other skilled craft out there.

Keep in mind, just because you have a CNC doesn't mean you're going to make any money. Lots of machines out there doing nothing...or plans that didn't happen because they weren't fully formed with market research. There are lots of guys out there cutting out 3D clip art of military insignia. You could do this too with the caveat that you may be selling to a different crowd...and it goes without saying that you better be the best of the bunch. It's tough - especially with all the imports flooding this country and fewer people buying wood carved anything anymore. Your marketing and advertising will make the difference between makin or breakin.

The reality today is, it is hard to make a living with a CNC. That's only part of the equation, no different than owning a dump truck, plastic injection machine or backhoe. You gotta work it...be determined, unstoppable and able to pull in customers & spit out good product...reliably and repeatedly.

-B

[Brian Harnett]

Brady pretty much summed it up.

At least starting out you know what you need to move forward, I know a few people that bought a cnc machine without thinking about the software learning curve and became discouraged or started just buying pre made files.

I have had mine for 14 years had 10 years of cad use previous to the machine, designing furniture. It was a big help already having the software side mostly done. There are many tasks it does for me from signs to cutting mortise and tenons. Limits are only the imagination.

My business is custom work either stuff bigger shops don't want or there are still several large shops I work with that do not have cnc, and do not want to bother with getting one and investing in people with knowledge to use it. In the next few years that will change as they get more and more accepted.

Figuring out efficient ways to hold your parts I use vac and pnumatic cylinders for a lot of what I do sometimes just screws for one offs. I bought mine as an asset for my existing shop it has become one of the most valuable tools I have now.

One of the things to remember decimal points are extremely important.

[jTr]

Brady's post should be on front page of this forum!
In fact, all of the above are quite right and accurate.
I would simply suggest you consider a smaller machine VS even a used larger unit. Smaller investment and footprint. Easier to set up. Easier to liquidate.

I am not saying "plan to fail" by any means, but you should consider what you plan to make - don't think an 8' table will be necessary for quite some time, if ever, for your targeted market and products as described.

Most of all, I wish you good luck, as the rewards of all this effort may be just what you're looking for in your retirement.

Jeff

[jerry_stanek]

For used keep checking the for sale forum. A lot of them go up that are in very good shape and their owners want to upgrade. I bought my first one that way and I was the 3rd owner and shopbot still supported it when I had trouble. I sold that one and upgraded and I keep thinking about maybe I should upgrade again. My first one would have done everything you want and then some. The reason I upgraded was I wanted a spindle and now I would like a tool changer

[chiloquinruss]

Vectric has some killer tutorials. I made a small index of the ones I've watched so when I need a refresher I can go right to the right one. The hardest thing I had to learn was terminology. Just 'cause' ya' know woodworking and programming, doesn't mean ya' know CNC! ;) I also have a notebook next to my control computer because almost every job is different in some way. CNC-ing wood has all kinds of 'interesting' 'features' like grain, moisture, speeds, feeds, bits, etc, etc, etc. I've been in computers since the 60's and have had my Bot for 9 years, and I learn something 'new' everyday! What ever you 'think' you are going to do with your machine, forget it, you will end doing all kinds of fun stuff! Way more than I ever thought I would ever do! :rolleyes: Russ

[gundog]

I think you will be a natural at this with your past experience. I am going to just cheer you on as some of the guys who posted before me gave all the right answers and are very good at this stuff.

Mike

[Ajcoholic]

I was also an experienced woodworker (have been running our cabinet and furniture shop since the mid 1990’s) when I decided to add a Shopbot CNC router to the shop in early 2012.

Having just some CAD & CNC experience back in the early 90’s in college, I was very worried about learning the software. I decided (and purchased) to get Aspire a few months before my machine was built and shipped to me. Following the videos and trying to do some practice work with the software at least a little bit 5 of 7 days a week, I was ready to cut my first projects (both 2D and 3D) literally the day after I had my machine set up. I did have an electrician come and wire everything in ready for its arrival.

If you want to do it, and put in the time, you will do it. But, as previously said, it it a matter of how bad you want to do it.

I would have to say, learning to properly and effectively work hold is almost harder than using the machine. For me, clamps, T tracks, screws, Raptor nails and finally my fully equipped vacuum table were all ways to do it - with the universal vacuum being the real game changer the past 3 1/2 years. I’d be lost without it now.

As far as cutters and breaking bits go - it is in essence just a router. If you have used wood cutting tools before, you should have a good handle on cutting wood with the CNC. Experiment with feeds, depths, rpm etc and find out what works best. But I didn’t break any bits for the first several years I used my machine and in fact I have only broken them when trying to cut some crazy tough G10 phenolic, or when attempting a too deep, too aggressive cut in some hardwood. Don’t be scared, but be a bit cautious at the get go.

The machine is just another tool in th shed so to speak - bits one which can do things none other can. I still find it cool to see the machine in action, and I am a few months away from my 5th anniversary with the machine.

[willnewton]

In terms of the learning curve, most of your time will be spent learning the product design software. It does not take nearly as long to learn to operate the machine and the SB control software.

Start simple. Cut a circle. Once you can go from a circle that is in your head to a circle in your hand via Shopbot, you will have learned a surprising amount.

You will know a lot after a few weeks, after six months, you will probably be basically competent enough to do the basics and initiate more difficult projects.

Also, don’t spend time initially learning EVERYTHING about the design software. Think of a project and learn how to do that project. You will be able to keep a much higher interest level and your learning will stick. Getting good instruction from videos and tutorials is great, but it will be the DOING of projects that accelerates your learning.

Maybe one guy can whip out a set of kitchen cabinets on the SB, another can do an elaborate multi sided 3d carving, but maybe they don’t know how to cut G10 or hardened steel (not recommended, but you would be surprised) or use the 3d probe. Explore new techniques by building projects around them. I learned to cut G10 to build quadcopter frames. I learned to cut hardened steel and engrave for a metalworking project. I learned to probe scan for a pistol grip project. You get the the idea.

I took SB classes, read manuals and the forum posts, watched videos, and prepped as best I could, but when the day to start cutting with MY machine came, it was as if I had forgotten everything I just spent weeks learning. However, I knew where to go look for the hints and reminders I needed to get going.

The speed that you learn will be based on the amount and variety of production you engage in. I do not use my SB as often as many here, so even though I have had one many years, my total knowledge of the machine is somewhat limited vs. someone using it all day everyday. On the other hand, I have been designing for 3D printing every day for years, built several CNC machines from scratch, used CAD for decades, have a strong background in wood and metalworking, so I can get the job done.

You can do it. Especially with help from this forum. There is an insane wealth of knowledge here and if you want to figure something out, you will get the help you need.

[phil_o]

I bought a Shopbot when I retired 10 years ago. I wasn't out to make a living. I enjoy woodworking, taught high school woodworking for 35 years, I am very good at it. Over time I came up with a number of items that I thought would sell. I went to craft fairs, created a web page read up on marketing. Nothing worked, I was barely able to cover the entry fee for the events. I still enjoy woodworking, I make a few signs for people who know me, my grandkids get some cool gifts.
My point is, as has already been pointed out, the CNC tool is just a tool not a money making machine. You have to have a product that can be made more efficiently with the tool you are purchasing. Also, if you do not have experience with a CNC router it will take a while to learn how to make best use of it.

I wish you well,

Phil

[dana_swift]

... and spent many years as a software programmer... Hello Tex. For the last few years I have stopped posting on here, just read when I get a chance. That note about being in the software business before caught my attention and I though it worth comment on. As my background is Electrical Engineering/Software/Mathmatics. If you worked in software, probably your understanding of the computer is way above average already. In CNC it really pays! That will shorten your learning curve when it comes to understanding how the various programs use files, where they are stored and how you can manipulate them to your advantage. I certainly do. What I found is the quality of the Vectric products makes the quality of the Shopbot products shine. It gets you most anything you want done easily and quickly. (After the learning curve that has been mentioned many times already.) But having my background, I wanted more than what Vectric offered. This may happen, if you know woodworking, software, and math. (You didnt mention math, so Im guessing there) But I have found writing my own tool path generators is something that has provided great improvements to my own results. Creating SBP files from your own programs is a great way to create much scrap and create a friendly relationship with your bit supplier for a while. But for me it was well worth it. There are many toolpath options I wanted that no commercial CAM program generated. 4d with a rotary axis, for instance. I have written toolpathing programs that consider the direction of the grain in the stock. The paths automatically avoid tearout. Vectric products have no consideration of such an important aspect of the material. (Why?) If you know software, you can have all those features and others as you see the need for them. I have, and have created about a dozen toolpath types for my own use that work perfectly for my needs. When I am going to make hundreds of something, its worth the trouble to do custom toolpath design. If I am making onsies of something, Vectric is the only way to go! Having both options is like owning a buldozer. You can go anywhere you want, but be careful because not all destinations are without consequence. Fun? CNC will be very fun, at any level. But if you go for the deep design as I have, expect it to be thrilling. And that learning curve? Im not done learning yet. +++ To all my old readers on here- hello! I have been enjoying reading your posts.. I may even post again in a year or two! Who knows? Tex- good luck and best wishes with whatever path you take. My best advice is stop paralysis by analysis: Buy what you can afford and start learning. Sell things and see how well they sell. What ever makes you the most money, make more of em. You will only regret not starting sooner. That is my only regret. D

[bking1836]

Welcome!

I have many more questions than answers, as I am a new ShopBot owner with hopes of making a living through a combination of CNC and traditional woodworking. It has only been a few weeks since my PRS Standard 96-48 has been up and running, but it has been an eventful few weeks and I will share some thoughts:

1. This is a high cost venture -- both in terms of money and time/energy. Learning VCarve Pro, which is the quickest route to bring a design to life, is absolutely critical. I am finding that it comes relatively quickly, but I wouldn't say it has been "fast."

Moreover, your time and materials costs add up quickly. There's a reason anything not mass produced in a factory costs so much. Especially as you are learning the software and the tool, prototyping your ideas is a must, and prototyping is expensive and time consuming. Last week, inspired by a photo I saw online, I designed/tried to reverse engineer a chair, and I wanted to be able to cut it from one sheet of 3/4" plywood. My first cut-ready prototype took 5+ hours of design time on VCarve. I am probably 3-4 iterations from being ready to make something commercially viable. That investment of time and money is ultimately small IF I can eventually sell a bunch of chairs. Otherwise, it's a fun and expensive way to learn new skills. The point is that it's going to cost a lot of money -- and take probably a good year -- for me to achieve a level of proficiency that is required to have a chance at commercial success.

Similarly, holding down material is tricky, except for vacuum tables -- which are lovely but expensive. Everyone on the forum tells me I will eventually cave and get a vacuum table....If they're correct and the same holds for you, well, the venture just got even more expensive.

And finally, if you like a clean(ish) shop, an oversized DC system like the 3HP Gorilla Pro from Oneida will pay dividends. My CNC runs almost entirely dust free, which justifies the extra cost in my mind. Even surfacing the MDF spoilboard produced essentially no airborne dust, which amazed me.

2. Use forums and YouTube extensively, but also double and triple check ideas. I simply could not have gotten this venture off the ground without forums and YouTube. This forum has many excellent members who are generous with their time and wisdom. The Vectric forum is good too.

3. Unless you're happy as a hobbyist, none of this really matters unless you are fully committed to branding, marketing, pounding the pavement, networking, etc. There are a lot of really talented woodworkers, CNC operators, etc out there who can make some amazing stuff but don't/can't market and sell their creations.

I was a hobbyist woodworker with a decent shop and decided to leave my career in education back in June to pursue this dream. Then I spent the summer generating business ideas, researching, watching YouTubes, and reading forums. Through that process, I came up with around 8 different revenue streams that I thought I would enjoy. Now that my shop is up and running, I am in the process of rapid prototyping of those ideas, and hopefully this process will illuminate which ideas have real promise, which ones are duds, and which ones require further inquiry before making any decisions.

Although I am not "retired," thanks to my wife's steady job, I am fortunate to have the ability to spend money while earning nothing for an initial 1-2 year start-up period. Otherwise, I can't imagine how anyone could do this unless that person (1) was retired with some financial flexibility (you?), or (2) started very slowly as a hobby while maintaining another real job, gradually allowing the hobby to flourish and turn into a going concern.

Best of luck, and keep posting!
Brian

[dlcw]

Welcome!


1. This is a high cost venture -- both in terms of money and time/energy. Learning VCarve Pro, which is the quickest route to bring a design to life, is absolutely critical. I am finding that it comes relatively quickly, but I wouldn't say it has been "fast."

Moreover, your time and materials costs add up quickly. There's a reason anything not mass produced in a factory costs so much. Especially as you are learning the software and the tool, prototyping your ideas is a must, and prototyping is expensive and time consuming. Last week, inspired by a photo I saw online, I designed/tried to reverse engineer a chair, and I wanted to be able to cut it from one sheet of 3/4" plywood. My first cut-ready prototype took 5+ hours of design time on VCarve. I am probably 3-4 iterations from being ready to make something commercially viable. That investment of time and money is ultimately small IF I can eventually sell a bunch of chairs. Otherwise, it's a fun and expensive way to learn new skills. The point is that it's going to cost a lot of money -- and take probably a good year -- for me to achieve a level of proficiency that is required to have a chance at commercial success.
Brian

When people ask me how much to make a part, that they want to order in small quantities, but get China pricing, I tell them, the first one will cost $50,000. Each one after that will cost $1.25. They always choke on that because they don't understand what goes into making "just one part" and then "mass producing" in quantities of 5 to 10 per order. They seem to think that they can get China container pricing when they order 5 or 10 at a time. It is a big education effort, which takes time and adds to the overall cost.

When customers ask why things from China are so cheap I tell them that first it takes a long term, high volume commitment on their part to even get a manufacturing organization to even talk to you. Second, you have to order at least half container loads at a time, second, it takes 60 to 90 days to get the order, and if anything is wrong with the order, to bad, you get to start the 60 to 90 day lead order time all over again and eat the bad product. If the mistake is your fault (wasn't what you expected, but initially designed), they will charge you to fix the design and all the processes that go into the production. They also don't understand the time it takes to design the product, design the manufacturing process, design the material flow process, design the product packaging, design the shipping process, do prototypes, arrange for raw materials in bulk, and then refine all the above processes to make it a viable venture. That is mass production. It takes time and Chinese manufacturers are not willing to embark on a venture that nets them 5 or 10 per order. So if that is the business model someone is aiming for, good luck getting China container pricing. It just ain't gonna happen. It takes big $$$ investments to get volume pricing.

[Brady Watson]

Brian/Don

My first cut-ready prototype took 5+ hours of design time on VCarve. I am probably 3-4 iterations from being ready to make something commercially viable. That investment of time and money is ultimately small IF I can eventually sell a bunch of chairs. Otherwise, it's a fun and expensive way to learn new skills. The point is that it's going to cost a lot of money -- and take probably a good year -- for me to achieve a level of proficiency that is required to have a chance at commercial success.


Yeah...that (and the China mentality) for sure are challenging. I think that the downfall began with dollar stores. Just cheap fodder nobody really thought about because the junk was literally disposable. This sort of thing has migrated into every aspect of manufacturing - and the knock offs have gotten quite specific. (E.G. - I was looking for one of those long ball mills that FrogMill sells and I got web results showing knock-off CNC machines from China, same color combo and everything)

Another problem is society and the fact that few people are producers; as a matter of fact, it's generational with many families not even related to anyone who does any kind of manufacturing - they are so far removed from grassroots that I wonder what a lot of people do for a living...unless they are just on the dole. Don't get me started. I guess the hipster maker movement or whatever may show a small glimmer of hope in terms of youngins understanding the trials and tribulations of even small scale manufacturing via CNC routers and 3d printers. We can only hope...

Don't think you're alone when it comes to the time-consuming task of creating a viable product. Few truly understand that the end product has actually been created at least several times before it was given the stamp of approval. First, there's the vision - in your mind - and all its iterations before you even sit down and sketch it out. Many times there are a number of paper sketches. Then there's all the different versions that you created in CAD - both before and after you have tried to machine/make one of them. This dance is no different whether you are new to CNC/CAD etc or have been doing it for years. Aesthetics and good design isn't even mentioned and that's a big part of things on the front end too...

I sometimes wish I could be the person my dog thinks I am...although, some days I wish I could be the guy that 'just pushes a button' and the customer's dream part comes out perfectly with zero effort. I mean, that is ALL WE DO, right? RIGHT??!! :p

-B

[Brian Harnett]

I have posted this information before, since the subject of holding parts has come up a few times I put some links to my pneumatic system for holding parts suitable for production.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j3e6WJxbWs

And an old thread http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/showthread.php?19242-Clamping-setup-for-dovetails

[bking1836]

Brian/Don

Don't think you're alone when it comes to the time-consuming task of creating a viable product. Few truly understand that the end product has actually been created at least several times before it was given the stamp of approval.

I have thought a lot about the business side of CNC and woodworking. Best I can tell, the traditional woodworkers who seem to do well financially either make cabinets, remodel houses or have managed to carve out a niche in the high-end furniture or art market. Or their businesses are diversified to include teaching, consulting, YouTube, milling/kiln drying, etc. in addition to shop work.

The CNC is just another tool -- albeit an expensive, powerful and unique one. Its value proposition is a combination of precision, easy repeatability, and the ability to do complicated tasks that are either too time consuming or downright impossible by hand. If you plan to make things for a living and use a CNC in the process, it had better leverage one of those value propositions. Otherwise you're just prolonging your ROI unless you already have an established woodworking business in which the addition of a CNC will create efficiencies and drive margins higher.

I don't have an existing woodworking business, and I decided to turn my hobby into (hopefully) a profitable business by leveraging the power of digital fabrication. I realize it's a steep hill to climb. So from the beginning my plan has been to go after the high/higher end market, in part because my previous professions have helped me create a significant network of people in my area who fit that demographic; but mostly because that's where the margins are. But even without access to a wealthier crowd, I just can't see myself producing and selling $79 items unless they literally cost $5 in materials and take less than 20 minutes total to produce. The question, then, becomes this: where's the sweet spot of market price vs. design time + production time + materials cost + overhead? I have some ideas, but I would love others to share their experiences.

[dlcw]

You're right. The CNC machine is just a tool, like other tools in your shop. I think basing a business around a CNC might not be a good business plan. There are a lot of things that other machines do better and more efficiently, like flattening a board with a jointer, or thickness planing with a planer or ripping pieces on a tablesaw. Yes, these can all be done with a CNC, but why would you? I use ALL my shop tools on a daily basis. Once I get done cutting anywhere from 60 to 90 sheets of plywood for a cabinet job, the CNC sits there. I use my other tools to build faceframes, doors, drawer faces, trim, etc.

As far as the "sweet spot", I know, I for one, do not have an answer for this. I guess it would come down to a LOT of market research to determine if your product is viable at a price you can make a decent living at. Each person, who wants to undertake this vocation, will have to determine that. In my area, a $30-$40 cutting board made from any wood (exotic or domestic) will not sell well. High end cabinets with all the trimmings would not sell well, art furniture won't sell. My cabinet work is not low end. They are medium-high end. I've stayed out of the low-end cabinet market. To many other cabinet makers in the area servicing that market.

I've had to go outside my area (about 50 to 100 miles) to find builders I can work with to build cabinetry (I've been quite successful at this). I would much rather be making high-end - but functional (not art) - furniture, but there just isn't a "make a decent living at it" market for it here. So I pay the bills with cabinet work and dally in furniture and other stuff. Combine that with the fact that I'm approaching retirement, I'm not all that motivated in spending my retirement years beating the bushes trying to build my business any further then I have. I certainly wouldn't entertain trying to develop a "product" and bring it to market at this point in my life. That proposition can take years. I'd rather be out kayaking, 4-wheeling, camping, traveling or hiking. LOL :)

So, each person needs to determine if they have the time and energy to undertake the daunting task of creating a product that they can make a decent living at and convince people that the sign on the door does not say "Santa's Workshop". It's a tough proposition and I wish anyone undertaking this venture the best of luck! :)

[bking1836]

You're right. The CNC machine is just a tool, like other tools in your shop. I think basing a business around a CNC might not be a good business plan. There are a lot of things that other machines do better and more efficiently, like flattening a board with a jointer, or thickness planing with a planer or ripping pieces on a tablesaw.

I guess it depends on what you mean by basing a business around a CNC. If you mean setting up shop with a CNC and a dust collector, then I agree that could be a tough business model. My shop has most of the other traditional tools you'd find in a woodshop, including a 13" planer and a 6" benchtop jointer (I bit the bullet...). BUT I did make a conscious decision not to invest in a large format jointer, planer or belt sander -- tools that all together can cost as much as some CNCs.

My point is that if you intend to use the CNC as part of an income-producing venture -- not just as a hobby -- then you have to capitalize on what's uniquely useful about it if you expect any decent ROI. To my mind, its value proposition is its ability to cut precisely, especially complicated cuts, in a way that is totally repeatable -- signs, 3d carvings, inlays, flat pack plywood furniture, artistic joinery and whatever else people can dream up. Meanwhile, when the CNC isn't at work in its highest and best use, it can flatten a walnut slab that I will make into a table (which, incidentally, it is doing as I type, and it is a SLOW process; but still a helluva lot faster than my belt sander :).

All that being said, and quite humbly, I fully admit that I am a CNC newbie. And if this ends up being an expensive hobby, I will have to adjust!

[joe]

Well, well,

I think B. Watson put his finger on it. "The reality today is, it is hard to make a living with a CNC.

However this fellow may have no need to fortify his income with a CNC. If he does, there's going to be a need for a marketing. I've found, in my business, people don't flock to you because you're offering carving services or box chairs. It's all about selling a product.

www.normansignco.com

[genek]

First where do you live. I allow new shop bot owners or those of thinking of buying a shop bot to come to My shop and see My operation. We make wooden Kitchen products, military products and other items. We do quite good with our line. I generally get wholesale orders any where from $500.00 to $4,000.00 per order. We average around $2,500.00 per week of orders going out. I am running about 2 weeks behind on getting orders out. We are currently doing $125,000.00 per year. We do mostly wholesale so our volume is higher than those that do retail. My shop bot runs 6 to 7 days a week. We have customers in 38 states and 9 military bases. A good product line makes or breaks one. Most companies fail in my opinion in their marketing. Most do not know how to sale their product or their self. We do very little advertisement, our product and quality sales itself with our marketing strategy.

[woodshop]

Ok... How does retirement work again? We retire and try to turn our hobbies into cash.
For men: Buy wood working equipment and start making sawdust.
For women: Hock the house and 401k and go open up a gift shop.

According to my SBA friend, most retirees fail trying to turn hobbies into cash within the first year. They simply do not know marketing well enough or at all.

Most craft shows around the country are chock full of retirees with wood or metal crafts.

Also, many retirees don't want to work that hard. They find running a "Production Shop" is a bunch of work. (We run two CNC's everyday and our shop is NEVER clean. Sawdust everywhere. Cans of paint or sealer everywhere. Big scrap pile of wood sits outside the shop waiting to be burned or thrown away. And here comes a new load of lumber that needs to be stacked somewhere.)

I run my complete business on my IPhone. Pictures galore. Accept credit cards - YES! Communication with the customer is a serious thing and we use phone-email-text-pony express like Mad People. Never want to leave a customer hanging or waiting... Big mistake.

We make and sell original art in wood. We never buy any ready-made vectors to cut. We make our own vectors.

We have a serious background in CAD. Been making vectors since 1985. Huge advantage.

If all of that wasn't enough, we now have to contend with the "Maker Revolution" spreading across the nation. Many younger artists and wood workers can find MAKER SHOPS to rent by the hour. We see many kids showing up at craft shows selling their "Maker Art."

So... Against all that, why do we continue to work so darn hard here? I love wood. I love art. I love making customers happy. I love being busy every day, with purpose. I am in my late 60's. Gotta be busy!

[bleeth]

You nailed it Dave. Tough enough to make it as a well trained pro. At least 50% of time and money invested in a business goes to marketing or the business flops.
Nobody is gonna buy your mousetrap if they don't know you have it!!

[woodshop]

Thanks, bleeth. Yes, marketing!!!

As a side note and possibly pertinent to this thread, we took our web site down. Why? The Chinese were snooping around too much. (We watch the hits and where those hits come from carefully.)
People steal ideas.
I am usually a target for "Idea Thiefs" at the craft shows around here.