What keeps you from using your indexer/rotary/4th axis?

[rcnewcomb]

I have a similar thread on the Vectric forum, but I wanted to post here in just to get better coverage.


I'm putting together some training material on wrapped rotary machining. I'd like to hear from those of you who are curious about rotary axis, but haven't really done anything with it.


If you do have one, have you done anything with it yet? (Mine sat under the CNC table for 2-3 years before I did anything with it)
If not, why?
If yes, what problems did you encounter?


For those with an unused rotary...
Do you have to swap a controller and/or a motor in order to use it?
Does it sit in/on the bed of the table or off to the side? i.e. do you have to set up/tear down something to use it, or can you quickly switch between table work and rotary work?
Have you ever hooked it up, and can you turn it with the control software?


What are the very basic questions you wish someone would address regarding rotary?

[Burkhardt]

I installed a rotary axis shortly after I built my CNC machine in 2012 and have used it occasionally since.

There is really nothing holding me back and it works just fine. Most of the time it is sitting on the corner of my machine table (unless I need the entire table).
I have used it to machine a set of spiral twisted table legs (came out nicely), a few chess pieces (never finished the whole set), to do a few feasibility projects like making a variety of helical spires, finials, lead screws, cylindrical mazes and the like.
Even wrote some special software to program the machine code for such projects but never published that (except the maze software).

I guess the "problem" is that the applications are a bit exotic and (compared to the overall CNC project universe) the rotary axis is just not as useful unless you just have the special project that REALLY needs that feature. On top of that, most rotary 3d-machining (like most quality 3d-mchining) takes a lot of machine time and does not lend itself to economic machine use.

Well, just my 2 cents....

[steve_g]

Randall:

I made my unit, challenged myself to master it, and made several projects - mainly decorative wood bracelets for my daughters… I injured my hand trying to bearing rout a radius on the inside edge of one of them and never went back to it… It’s still setting on a box beside my Alpha many years later… I’ll have to say also that there hasn’t been a financial incentive to go back to it either…

Now I say “9.75 fingers in, 9.75 out another good day in the shop!”

SG

[tlempicke]

I bought a cheapie off of EBay. Had to do some mods to it to get a useful machine but it was part of the learning process. Made a set of table legs (and some wood for the fireplace) that turned out very well. Now have plans to make some parts for a table. Good learning experience but as earlier noticed the time factor is large.

[willnewton]

Mine has never been hooked up or installed and sat in a drawer for years. I have never had a use for it. I bought it with my machine because it seemed like the thing to do at the time.

I used to do production woodturning, so it is a complete waste of my time to set up for a turning operation. I also used to do contract woodcarving for other woodworkers, so it is also a waste of time to set up a digital carving as well.

In both cases, I can complete projects faster “by hand” than I can install the fourth axis or set up the control software or manage the digital object in my design software.

I can imagine that some project may come my way that would need the 4th axis, but it hasn’t happened yet.

I have no desire to even invent a project to learn how to use it. I have watched videos of it in action and the whole process seems painfully slow. I don’t want to waste billable hours trying to do a bunch of complicated setup to make something work when I can simply go to work and get the job done faster.

[Brady Watson]

Many of the challenges I had early on are still true today. Thought I'd chime in from memory - although things have gotten WAY better over the course of time where kids today don't know how good they've got it when it comes to indexing....

1) No instructions on how to mount the indexer and hook it up in software.

Long, long ago in a land far far away, I bought my first indexer from SB. It came with a single sheet of paper that showed the difference between a cove and a bead. There were no instructions on how to mount it. How to set it up in SB2 or later SB3....The head and tail stocks were too tall to mount on top of the bed and clear the Z, so you were guaranteed failure right out of the box. Mine sat for a few years before I messed with it. I wound up mounting it off the table and later, just bought a lathe, converted it to an indexer and welded another 18" onto the end of my table just for the indexer. This way it was always setup. In more recent times, SB has provided mounting options for the indexer. It only took like 20 years, but hey...they do it now.

2) I've got it mounted, now what?

Early on there were NO gadgets, tutorials or help (even from SB because even THEY didn't really know how to run the indexer, aside from a simple MB move). There were a few guys doing 3D incremental indexing (not really) using ArtCAM combined with calculating the 'magic number' using a function of Pi and your Unit Value to basically wrap a 3D toolpath around the indexer. There were secret handshakes involved and there were still plenty of questions. Documentation has gotten WAY better in more recent times, although it still leaves a bit to be desired. I suppose you must prove yourself worthy by tracking down all the info from SB and Vectric and then understand it all - which is 1000x easier than it was for me.

3) What kind of file do I need for the indexer and how do I make it?

Depending on the desired outcome, the kind of model needed for the indexer was a source of confusion. Does it need to be 'full 3D'? Could I make in in ArtCAM/Aspire, a 2.5D program? What about models that dipped in the center that couldn't be unwrapped? What then??? What about if I wanted to miter/fishmouth a tube so I could weld it to another on an angle? How about just engraving on the surface? Can I do a statue and get full coverage? How about machining something on 2,4 or more sides using conventional 3-axis toolpaths? How do you do those barley twist things with the form cutters? Can I use this thing as a lathe? What's the difference? The answers to these questions only came after doing a ton of research, playing around and actually trying things out - there wasn't anybody out there to ask...

4) How do I make money with this thing?

(crickets chirping...) Still trying to figure that one out.

The indexer is one of those things...you just gotta have one. It has a certain mystique to it...it can cut out ANYTHING!!! (or at least that's what we believed when we bought it) - It's interesting in the sense that, for those that bought one, it seemed to represent a level of skill we all aspired to reach at some point in our CNC 'career' or whatever. It represented possibility - whether real or imagined.

-B

[Gary Campbell]

Well said, Mr. Watson

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31207&stc=1

[Pennywood]

I wish I’d this thread before we owned one. Still fumbling through the SB learning curve, but it’s pretty clear that the 4th axis will remain entombed in it's packing crate

[rcnewcomb]

but it’s pretty clear that the 4th axis will remain entombed in it's packing crate

That is what I am hoping to change. This is why I am asking.

[ChrisK]

First, thanks for attacking this topic. I got my indexer working pretty well using ShopBot documentation with a lot of searching and reading thru this forum. But, it would’ve been a big help to have the most important info organized and consolidated in one place.

Second, Mr. Watson nailed the issues. I especially identify with the points raised in 3). I believed that I could carve 3D objects using the indexer as a work around since I’ll never get a 5-axis machine. (Unwrapping is a huge challenge for me. But, if I can get the preview in Vectric’s Aspire to look right, then it’s worth taking a shot at carving.)

[waynelocke]

I am someone who uses the indexer. It is not a tool which you could build a turning business around. There are much more efficient machines for that. However, I build bespoke furniture and it is an invaluable addition to my bag of tricks and I use it on projects at least several times a year. It gives me capacity and convenience I did not have before.

Having to setup and take down the indexer every time I used it would be a huge impediment. I expect that dialing it in every time would be hours of screaming and cussing. My machine is a 5 X 8 PRT and I designed the stand to accommodate a lathe down the back 8' side.http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31212&stc=1I have added another Y target and modified the XY and the Z Zeroing routines to be able to zero these axis as easily and quickly as the basic machine. Without these things keeping the indexer at the ready I'm sure that I would not use it much - if at all.

A lot of my indexer use is what I call value aded - things that I couldn't't easily do another way. Here are three examples. These candle stands illustrate brass inlays which would be exceedingly difficult without the indexer, texturing in the round and spiraling.http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31213&stc=1The next photos of a college graduation mace show some small turtle inlays (with 1/16" bit) and a brass and InLace river inlay.http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31214&stc=1http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31215&stc=1These examples show work that would be difficult and beyond my patience without the indexer.

The capability and convenience is the biggest selling point to me. I am just finishing a bed with posts over 7' tall and almost 7' long 1 3/4" rods connecting the top. While it took a while, as with much CNC work, I was at the other end of the shop for much of it and it was still probably more cost efficient and quicker than the time spent finding a turning shop or component manufacturer (undoubtably out of town), communicating my needs, waiting and hoping everything was correct. While the bed is a lucrative project, outsourcing the turnings may well have placed it outside my client's budget.

Vectric's wrapping functions have really been a game changer. While not as elegant and effortless (if you can use that term with any software} as the rest of Aspire with perseverance, patience and hardheadedness you can get to some nice and interesting places with the indexer that are really not possible without it.

Randall, I hope that was close to on topic with your thread.

[myxpykalix]

When I bought my Shopbot in 2006 with an indexer, it was specifically with the intent to be able to turn columns and legs. I soon found out there was scant instruction or software out there to help you accomplish this. After a year or so of frustration I wrote (with a lot of help) a spiral turning app that i used for a long time. Here are a few pictures of things i've turned on my indexer. Here is also a tutorial I contributed to that you may want to add to your instructions Randall:
http://www.humblesticks.com/cnc-rotary-tutorial.html

[dmidkiff]

I recently purchased a used indexer. Been wanting one since I saw Wayne's at one of his early ShopBot camps. I have yet to install it.

[bryan]

I didn't get an indexer until I had a project that spanned 5 years of orders since 2013.


Now I'm not saying I can't do these any other way as I quite happy work on my lathe and letting the chips fly can be very relaxing day spend in the shop.


Have several friends which are police officers, they approach me about monthly awards, they had to switch to a small plaque after an older woodworker that was making the old award had passed away.
They wanted to go back to the old award which was an old style police baton, and don't worry they don't actually carry them on the street or at least that what they are telling me;-)




First years batch off of the lathe.


Making 26 at a time, making sure they all were the same would not be easy on the lathe with my Crismas rigged duplicater maybe 4 or 5, but not 26.


I found this out the first year I made them in 2013 then used that payment to reached out to ShopBot and ordered me an indexer for my older PRT96.


Build a nice and extra strong table at one end of the Bot using the steel legs from the older PRT96 table from ShopBot.





Since I'd been following all of the posts the indexer one always got a read or two.
So I used them as my teaching tool and proceeded to draw up the batton they wanted.
After about 5 tries I had an exact copy of the baton they wanted moving forward.
The first batch showed me two things one they all came out the same, second what took me 4 weekends to complete on the lathe, I got done in two.
Still you the lathe but only to do finish sanding after the finish pass.
And around my shop time is money and sleep loss.




Nothing fancy but it's what the client wanted, have suggested additional changes but at this time I've been using the same file to cut these since 2014, it a great quick project and has paid for the index 4 times over.

http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31222&stc=1

[don62]

Randall, thanks for starting this thread and taking on this project. I am going on 18 years with my bot and just last year got into the indexer. Two things kept me from an indexer sooner - first the focus on learning cnc machining, the second the cost of a ‘turn key’ indexer. The shopbot has always been a retiree hobby/ small home based business item for me, so the cost of the indexer an obstacle. Then i saw the thread on making an indexer for under 1k and had a V-8 moment. Years ago i had given away a lathe of ‘no need for me, maybe you can use it’ logic. So here is what got me into an indexer 1. The idea of building it myself, if you will - the lower cost yes, but there is a great feeling to build it from scratch, if you will. 2. I have a ton of 1.5” solid surface strips - what to do with them?? One idea - make rolling pins - only way i see is an indexer.

having gotten into the indexer i am dismayed by software limitations - apsire allows you to see what you you will get, but not in rotary - i am still at 2.5 version and would have upgraded, but i understand even the latest version does not have much more funtionality than what i have now. A read on the vectric forum says this may change - that it great - indexer should not be an afterthought in the software but stand on its own - be able to see what your product will look like has been such a problem solver in 2d and 3d, it is even more so with the indexer.

another good area is designing the indexer - i made some choices that will limit what i can do, but i did not understand enough before i started and there was little info to help with the design - so a good tutorial would be helpful - just finding compatible gears was a ‘trip.’

super that you are going to be at McGrews but i will not be able to be there - and i could almost see a camp/woirkshop totally devoted to indexer - not sure with the agenda at MccGrews there will be enough time for good indexer discussion.

looking forward to seeing what you put together and i thank you for taking on this task
cheers
don

[Brady Watson]

having gotten into the indexer i am dismayed by software limitations - apsire allows you to see what you you will get, but not in rotary - i am still at 2.5 version and would have upgraded, but i understand even the latest version does not have much more funtionality than what i have now....

Not true. Starting somewhere around Aspire 3.5 or 4.0 things got a LOT better, including complete rotary/wrapped toolpath simulation all the way around the model. Many, many other improvements have also come down the pike from 2D drawing and 3D relief creation/sculpting to additional file format i/o and printing options, 2-sided machining setup and a ton of gadgets that extend what Aspire can do. It's worth having a look, trying a demo and upgrading for sure.

Now having said that, tell us who told you there wasn't anything new compared to v2.5...Hmm? :D

-B

[don62]

Hey, Brady - not trying to create an issue here - you are my hero.
But i was able to find it on the vectric forum - this was in response to my query about
Apsire indexer capability (http://forum.vectric.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25163&p=180174&hilit=rotary+version#p180181)http://forum.vectric.com/styles/art_elegance/imageset/icon_topic_latest.gif (http://forum.vectric.com/viewtopic.php?p=180181#p180181)by dealguy11 (http://forum.vectric.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=5123) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:51 pm
To be honest, I don't really remember exactly what was in 2.5. The rotary stuff hasn't changed much. The following things are useful to rotary in the newer versions:

- Higher resolution options which is good for rotary carved stuff because the models tend to be large
- There's been some work on the rendering engine, plus it's been updated to be a 64-bit program. This means some additional speed and larger models. Rendering of 3d models when wrapped toolpath drawing is turned on is faster.
- The new Molding Toolpath makes modeling spindles easier and also results in nicer toolpaths due to the options to vary stepover as shapes go to vertical, and to automatically machine flat regions with an end-mill.
- Don't remember if toolpath notes were available in v2.5. In v8+ they can be used to pass custom g-code to the program to, for example, flip the A axis between toolpaths.

Otherwise, I think it works pretty much the same.

so maybe i misinterpreted - i probably should download trial version of latest version -
don

[rcnewcomb]

The wrapped preview in Aspire is much better now than it was in V2.5. You should definitely checkout out the trial version to see for yourself.

[Brady Watson]

Hey, Brady - not trying to create an issue here...

Oh no no no....no issues...maybe a little friendly ribbing though ;)

Now I won't say the changes are mind-blowing, but they are much better than 2.5 in terms of ease of setup (they cleaned up the gadget for wrapping around 2D & 3D stuff) and visualization (you can see the toolpaths wrapped around the entire rotary model). Aspire will let you unwrap 3D models into a flat plane & then rewrap them back to a rotary model. This is how both Aspire & Artcam handle rotary. It is completely model dependent whether you get some rotary distortion on the model or not, and this distortion can skew the model is places where there is an undercut or make it a bit wonky in places. In a number of cases, there is no way around this & keep in mind that unwrapping is in NO WAY the end all be all method of preparing a model for rotary work.

Truth be told, I use a number of programs for rotary work. For 2D stuff, where a regular wrap or spiral wrap is in order or shallow 3D reliefs that are wrapped, I find Aspire more than adequate for the task. However, for full 3D models, like a gun stock, propeller or non-symmetrical statue is to be machined, and you need it to be true to form and precise, you need to look at other options.

-B

[a.werby]

Brady is right; while the "wrapping" technique can work in some cases, it's basically a kludge. If you can make a real 3D model, there are better ways to generate tool paths that will carve it. I'd suggest trying DeskProto; it's capable of generating live 4th axis tool paths as well as indexed ones from your STL files, and it can write .SBP g-code files. There's a substantial discount for hobbyists, and we offer additional discounts on both the hobby and commercial editions.

Andrew Werby
computersculpture.com

[Brady Watson]

Andrew is spot on. DeskProto is excellent for rotary work, especially if the model needs to be true to form and accurately represented. I have the Commercial Multi-Axis Edition, but as mentioned, there is a hobby version as well that basically has the same features for a fraction of the cost...but if you make money with it, do the honorable thing and ante up for the Commercial version. Lex works very hard on DP.

My only wish for DP is a full subtractive preview of the toolpaths, which I mentioned in the past but was told that it wouldn't be possible any time soon. If this feature was present, it would make DP the ultimate software for rotary work, but for now it's pretty close, with the ability to preview the toolpath lines.

FYI - You can try a fully functional demo of DeskProto and cut some files on your indexer for I think 30 days. Keep in mind that the post processor and machine setup may need tweaking to get your posted SBP code working correctly.

-B

[don62]

I used Rhino to do the design for guitar necks - then sent it to Aspire for the toolpath. Rhino was great, but it is one of those programs that one must use on a regular basis or you loose how to use it - probably just an old guy problem. Subtle or even not so subtle UI differences really adds challenge to mastering different versions of CAD/CAM software. My go to program is a 98 version of AutoCadLT – I keep an old Vista laptop around as it is the last Window OS that will run it. UI differences in TurboCad drive me back to LT, but DraftSight has a free 2d program that is similar to LT that I like.


I have now downloaded Aspire version 9. Decided best way to explore indexer was to watch the rotary indexer tutorial – Rotary Machining 3D and I have been impressed! I agree, Brady, Vectric has come along way in the rotary tool area.


I have also downloaded trial version of Deskproto multi-axis. The tutorials I have looked at take existing 3d models and work from there. This also is an impressive program


I know that I will be designing items for the indexer, not primarily editing existing models – so which is the best approach – I can swing the new version of Aspire or the Deskproto multi-axis, but I cannot do both.


Thanks
don

[a.werby]

It depends on your workflow. If you're already working in 3D and just need a way to carve the models you've made on your indexer, then get DeskProto. If you've got a lot of basically flat reliefs or 2D art that you want to wrap around cylinders, then stick with Aspire. But I don't see getting it to do guitar necks; you'll be pulling out a lot of hair...

[bryson]

Randall. I would love to see more training material on using the indexer. I use mine often but mostly to learn how to ? So far the only business related items I'v made are PVC finials for my signs.