Shopbot prt Alpha Problems [Archive]

bjenkins

09-28-2004, 11:50 AM

Wayne,

Okay, man, we feel the pain. Most of us have been there-- new bot, so excited to take it to warp speed, can't even walk yet, frustration sets in...

This forum is an amazing resource to help you through, but you have to break things down a little to bite size pieces. What is the first issue you want to resolve and then we can move on.

Since I don’t know your answer, I’ll suggest some places.

1. There are numerous threads on homing problems. Assuming you are using the proximity switches from ShopBot, there is a lot you can find by just doing a search on “homing” and reading through the threads. Here is one good one:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/312/4524.html

2. MM use has lots of discussion on the forum as well. The folks who are trying to use mm primarily seem to have many issues to “learn around” the default behaviors. By the way, there is some documented interactions in mm and homing… Look near the end of this thread:
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/26/3177.html

Lest I ramble on, we can tackle the CC routine later.

Bud

gerald_d

02-03-2005, 04:36 AM

this thread started upside down, but runs properly now..

Hi Guys,

Gakiem, my Alpha neighbour here in Cape Town has posted this elsewhere (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/29/1432.html?1107423039#POST20463), but I think this is a better thread:

"Hi everyone.I am running a PRTalpha 120x60 and seem to have problems running it at speeds exceeding 4.5inches/sec. Does anyone have a suggestion for a possible solution?"

In this thread (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/29/3832.html), it was said that: "Ramping threshhold, speed and distance is all controlled in the Shopbot software. I'm finding that tuning these values has been my biggest learning curve on the new Alpha. I seem to use one set of values for large simple parts without tabs and a slightly different set for my small complex ones. A few conversations with the tech department once you have a machine will let you figure out which stuff to experiment with to fine tune for optimum performance for your parts."

I recall that there were more discussions on setting up an Alpha's values, but can't find them now.

He told me on the phone that he has this roughness problem even while cutting soft foam into gentle 3D shapes for motorhome patterns.

Is he having setup and tuning problems, or is there something else to look into?

elcruisr

02-03-2005, 06:38 AM

Does the problem seem to be related to a single axis or can you tell? I'm assuming the machine is running on the latest software upgrade, it does seem smoother operating to me. All bearings and holdowns adjusted properly? If all the above is true then I can try to help with some of the adjustments I've made in the software tuning after I get to the shop today.

Eric

elcruisr

02-03-2005, 04:41 PM

I was looking at my values and when I'm doing v-carving and such I usually lengthen the "move ramp distance" a bit and sometimes I also adjust the "move ramp speed". Make the adjustments in small increments ( like .1 at a time ) and try air cutting to see if it improves the motion. Not sure just how complex the moves are but there is definately an upper limit to 3-d move speeds. Maybe Bill P knows more about this stuff than I do though!

Eric

billp

02-03-2005, 04:59 PM

Eric,
Wish I did. A lot of these issues seem to be file specific. I have not loaded the latest version of the software on my machine yet as I'm doing a bunch of alterations ( finally got a spindle, etc..). On my last large file it drove me nuts to see the ramping slow down to a crawl near my perimeters,particularly since it turned out to be a 10 hour cut, and I am SURE that at least an hour of that was wasted "air time".
I've cut foam at 3" on the Z axis, and 8" on the X/Y with NO problem. I haven't really tried to see where the upper limits are on the Alpha though, and that might be a true test, but again I think much of it has to do with the overall dimensions of the part to be cut ( the file I just mentioned was 3" thick).
I think we're all going to have to keep reporting in with what we learn on our machines, as we have such a diversity of products.
Whenever I get frustrated at this "R/D" phase I remind myself that we all had to do pretty much the same with each new generation of the 'Bot. My first few weeks with the cable drive, PR, and PRT were also learning experiences that eventually wound up being resolved by the collective field testing we have all wound up performing. It IS getting closer, and I think in time we'll all have found the "sweet spot" for what we do on our machines..

williamim

05-08-2005, 08:54 PM

Is any one having problems with the latest Alpha software? Some times when I run large files the bot stops and goes into the preview mode. I have to reboot the computer because the software goes into an endless loop. Some times the bot just stops moving and I have to reboot the computer. None of the limit switches or the E stop are activated. Also times when I use C2 for the zero plate the software lockes up and I have to reboot the computer. Never had a problem until I upgraded to the Alpha I am running windows xp pro as recommended by ShopBot and computer is dedicated to the ShopBot.

ted

05-09-2005, 06:36 AM

Hi Bill,

On the large file problem. Could you send a sample of file that fails along with your problem.log file from the c:\Program Files\ShopBot\ShopBot 3 folder (to support@shopbottools.com (mailto:support@shopbottools.com)).

On the C2 problem. Yes. We've had a couple of reports on this one. I think it is probably related to a timing/communication issue. We're having problems duplicating it so far, probably because we aren't using a fast enough computer. But we hope to get it resolved shortly and will keep you posted.

Thanks,

-Ted

Alpha Paul (Unregistered Guest)

05-09-2005, 08:09 AM

Hi Ted, Just thought id say hello. I was the first full alpha to ship last summer remember me Alpha Paul. I too have the c2 problem. It is a pretty regular occurence for me. once every 10 changes of bits. I have learned to deal with it as it is not that big of a deal but would like to see it gone if possible. I am still running the version from last summer that got me running smooth and have not updated from there simply because it is running smooth. For all out there wondering how the new alpha is vs. the old PRT it is overall MUCH better. The smooth ride and speed increases are impossible not to notice. i still find myself ducking out the way when watching files and it does a jog towards me!! it is that quick! Great job Ted and the support is 100% they truely will walk with you til you are running. i can vouch for that personally. is the newest version worth upgrading to?? i see you have to update the firmware too which has kept me from doing it. like i said it is running smoothly now and hate to disturb things. Thanks Paul

beacon14

05-09-2005, 03:08 PM

If you have to re-boot the computer every 10 bit changes that is not exactly "running smoothly" if you ask me.

Alpha Paul (Unregistered Guest)

05-09-2005, 03:52 PM

the pc does not have to be rebooted when the c2 command stops just the shopbot program. takes 10 secs back in business

bobstand

05-10-2005, 05:57 PM

Hi: Mr. Imschweiler:
I have an alpha with a porter cable router and have also been having problems with the tool stopping in the middle of a cut file. I have the latest software laoded. I have talked to support but still have not resolved the proplem. I was wondering if you have found an answer. I was first told that I had a noise problem. I have checked all ground wires and they seem to be according to spec. I was then told by support that the springs on the z may be the problem. I ordered the new "work around" and when they arrived today they look just like what I have on the tool. The problem I have is when I run a file, the tool stops, and I get the "e stop limit switch message". When I select resume file it starts up right where it leaves off and continues on again to another "random" spot and stops again. After several resume comands I have been able to reach the end of the cut file. Did you find an answer for your problem? Is this just an Alpha problem, Software problem, Noise, Springs?? Im lost!

paco

05-10-2005, 06:26 PM

Hi Bob!

I would recommend to check the grounding from the router and go on until you reach the box itself; check for good continuity with a "ohm meter"(sorry for bad spelling)... do you have a dust collector running when this "stopping" happen?... check that grounding too (assuming that you have grounded it)... Have you check/"wiggle" the "e stop limit switch" (and it's wire)?... check that too; maybe a faulty connection (is the software always report about this switch?)... "wiggle" some other wires while running an air cut test to see if you could reproduce the problem...

About the springs of the Z axis; I would bet you could remove them without any problem else that you router/spindle would "fall" down when the tool would'nt be powered... thoses motors with the rack and pinion system are powerful enought to lift the router/spindle without problem...

And don't run any other softwares/services when you use SB3 for file running...

bobstand

05-10-2005, 07:19 PM

Paco: Good response. Yes the dust colloctor is grounded. Just as you have suggested all grounding has been checked and re-checked. I will try an air test as suggested, maybe that will turn something up. I will let you know. The computer is dedicated to the bot with no other software running. I have even checked to make sure the computer is clean (dust free). The air cut while moving around wires is an interesting ieda.

fleinbach

05-10-2005, 08:39 PM

Bob,

Your symptoms are exactly the same as mine were. My problem lasted for about five months after which it was cured 100%. The only problem is I have a spindle motor and it was a grounding problem. The spindle motor has a shielded cable to the inverter. This cable has the shield connected at the inverter only, from the factory. I connected the other end at the spindle and have not had the problem since even though it is not recommended to connect both ends of a shielded cable.

Now it seems to me that Noise from my spindle was getting into the prox switch wire. It may be possible that the porter cable router itself or the cord is also inducing noise. AC wires running next to low-voltage wires is never a good idea. Since it is difficult to get separation, the next best thing would be to shield the AC from the low-voltage wires.

You might try this. When I was having the problem I could stop it from happening by disconnecting the prox switches. You might want to try this as a test to see it that is where the noise is getting into the system.

One other thing that makes this problem difficult to diagnose is that it was intermittent. If you ran the same file again it would stop at some point different from the last time, or maybe not even stop at all. I never looked very hard for a cure since I could always continue cutting and finish the file. That was until one particular file would consistently stop every couple of seconds no matter how many times I ran. It was this file that convinced me the grounding worked. I ran the file numerous times with and without the shield wire attached and had no doubt in cured the problem.

richards

05-10-2005, 08:45 PM

It might be a good idea to start using shielded cable for the prox switches (and any other input line). The shielding on the cable would have to be grounded at one end only to avoid ground loops.

bobstand

05-10-2005, 09:44 PM

Frank, thank you for the detailed information. The problem you have described is exactly what I have been experiencing. Tomorrow I will try your suggestion of disconnecting the prox switches. One other thought that just came to mind was about a year ago I had to repair the wire to the z-zero plate because it had been cut in shipping. I spliced it back together and put electrical tape around it. I think I will check again to see if the connection is still solid. The plate is working fine when I z-zero. Do you think that a weak splice could be a source of a problem?

paco

05-10-2005, 11:02 PM

Hey Bob!

Frank point a VERY important aspect; KEEP "sensitive" wires (motors and signal) AWAY from AC power cord(s)...

gerald_d

05-11-2005, 01:14 AM

Having seen an Alpha recently, I was surprised that the machine is still expected to ground itself via its v-roller bearings. Frank had success when he grounded the router/spindle case via the shielding of a cable, thereby supplying an easier ground path than via all the v-rollers.

A simple test, that can do no harm: Run a copper wire from your router mounting bracket to your main ground point. (It is okay if it runs with the router power lead). Make sure there is good metal-to-metal contact between the bracket and the router, and also between the bracket and the z-slide.

Also check that you use a holster for the z-zero plate to stop it from making light contact to the frame while not in use. The z-zero plate and wire can be a wonderful antenna down to the control board - maybe disconnect that at the control board end while fault-finding. (We also had a problem with a longer E-stop wire becoming an antenna when we mounted a second stop much further away)

Brady Watson

05-11-2005, 01:21 AM

Bob,
Lots of good suggestions on here. What happens many times with the limit swiches AND the E-stop circuits (inputs 3 & 4 respectively) is that the long leads act as an antenna. Any high voltage/current running along side of the proxy or limit switch wires have the potential of leaking energy to the low voltage wires (Like a 100w signal stomping on a 5w CB on the same band.)

It's a good idea to disconnect the proxy switches at the control box. After you have duplicated the stopping by air cutting, run the tool and let it do it's thing. Keep your eyes on the Input 3 and 4 lights on the red DRO screen. If you see intermittent flickering, then the line is getting stepped on by some higher voltage. In that case, start turning things off until you find the source.

Let us know how you make out.

-Brady

fleinbach

05-11-2005, 06:43 AM

One other thing I might add pertaining to the prox switches. After I made the test with the prox swiches dissconnected and had success, I tried running shielded wire for the prox switches. This did not work in my case.

I have been in the electronics field all my life. And when it comes to noise induced problems shielding is very important. And even though there are general accepted practices pertaining to shielding, sometimes nonconventional methods are the only thing that will work.

williamim

05-11-2005, 08:47 AM

Bob
My first problem was with the proxy switches as soon as you turned on the spindel the limit switch hit notice would appear and the bot would not move. After several calls to ShopBot Ted sent me a drawing to correct the problem I had to install a capsitor and resistor where the proxy switched connect to the control board and that problem was fixed. This new problem only happens on large files and no output or input lights come on when it happens It just stops and the ShopBot software goes into an endless loop the only way to get out is to reboot the computer. I sent Ted the problem log yesterday as he requested but I have not heard from him as of this post.

guest (Unregistered Guest)

05-12-2005, 08:11 AM

If you have to run wires next to each other then twist them around each other. This will eliminate "crosstalk" and "attenuation" between the wires.

gerald_d

05-12-2005, 08:21 AM

Twisting random bundles of wires together makes it worse. The idea is to keep "pairs" of wires twisted to each other, but separated from other "pairs". Link (http://www.cabletesting.com/CableTesting/Testing/Definitions/Definitions_NEXT.htm)

contactccw

05-17-2005, 03:49 PM

Hey Guys. I'm honestly not sure where I should post this but here goes. Bill P. recommended I post this, it might help…

Recently we had issues with our alpha after about 2 months or smooth operation. Intermittently we noticed we would lose communications, get prox errors and not connect to the machine at all. On rare occasions the machine would shake, literally. We have a spindle put in all kinds of filters, shielded wire, etc.. We were down for over a week at one point… Went through the steps with Shopbot who was helpful, but we still had issues.

Many times, Shopbot software in XP would abend, cause a GPF or outright fail to communicate with the control box.

In fact, we noticed our wired network in the shop would also fail when we were having issues with the Alpha.

One thing we did notice was that when the failure occurred, the light on the adapter inside the control box would go solid. It should normally blink when communications are traveling through it.

In the end, we did some testing using an o-scope and volt meter. We found an issue with the 9 pin to USB converter in that the shield was not grounded, even though it looked like it was. There was a large amount of noise on the line resulting in software failures when running XP. This was the cause of the issue. ( I won’t drag you through the details of how we did the trouble shooting, it was a long day!!)

This is how we fixed it. We ran a ground wire from the adapter to the box cassis itself. The machine has been great since. Never had an issue in XP. See photos.

In talking to Ted yesterday and sharing my experiences with Bill P. I think I know how some of these issues could be resolved. Ted thinks that maybe the adapter shield is separating from the ground of the machine, causing the error. Which makes sense….

Hopefully you can spread this around and it will help you guys, and gals. Call me if you need more info. 908-806-3556

Regards, Jim.

contactccw

05-17-2005, 04:02 PM

Sorry, forgot the photo.

http://www.customcreationswoodworking.com/thefix.jpg

Again, let me know if you have any questions...

Jim

contactccw

05-17-2005, 04:46 PM

Sorry, I screwed up the link for the picture...
http://compuinc.hypermart.net/TheFix.jpg

paco

05-17-2005, 07:07 PM

Hey thanks Jim!

I'll try that... I do get disconnected sometimes; even with a new serial adapter (less than before though)...

evan

05-17-2005, 08:08 PM

Thanks, I've lost connection a couple of times as well. Grounding seems to be a prescription to cure a number of ills.

paco

05-17-2005, 09:02 PM

Maybe I should wear some sort conductive soles shoes!!!

contactccw

05-19-2005, 12:35 AM

One more thing I noticed in reading this thread.

We have our wires for the prox switches, y car and y / z motor grouped directly with the spindle wire.

In my experiences, it is important to note that if the wire is shielded and properly grounded it is not likely cross talk or cause inter-element capacitance would occur.

We have all of our wires together, no issue since the fix. We also did have an issue with the prox switches flashing. This issue has not returned.

Yet, keeping my fingers crossed!

Jim
Custom Creations Woodworking Inc.

Voice: 908-806-3556
FAX: 908-806-2192

Visit us on-line at www.CustomCreationsWoodworking.com (http://www.CustomCreationsWoodworking.com) or www.TheCustomSignShop.com (http://www.TheCustomSignShop.com)

gerald_d

05-19-2005, 01:08 AM

Thanks for sharing your experience Jim.

gerald_d

07-16-2005, 02:10 AM

This post (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=27&post=26111#POST26111) may also be related.

neal_schwartz

08-19-2005, 11:36 PM

PRT Alpha - Using ShopBot PRTAlpha3 - Delta VFD-B - Columbo Spindle - Was getting intermittent "Limit Switch Hit" errors during run. Tried all site posts, no fix. Finally ran wire from Stand Frame to Control Box, resolved problem. All my wiring goes out back of machine then over ceiling, down wall to controller. Routed ground wire the same, but still got "Limit Switch Hit" intermittently. Finally found that ground wire had to be run from stand corner nearest controller to the controller. Cut a ditch in concrete to bury wire and epoxy it in place (so I wouldn't trip over it). Apparently gound wire has to be short (not long). Solved problem 100%.

Brady Watson

08-20-2005, 01:05 PM

Neal,
Long wires, such as the limit switch wires, act as antennae to electrical noise. Keep an eye on your input 3 & 4 lights in the control software. If they flicker intermittently and unexpectedly, this indicates that there is some interference coming over the lines. If it is input 3, then the Proxy switches are acting as an antenna, and if #4, then it's the E-stop. You can add a capacitor and resistor to the lines to buffer the signal and filter out this noise.

-Brady