Is CNC cheating?

[bill.young]

https://medium.com/@wlyoung/are-we-really-cheaters-5260503794fb

[Rtibbs]

I don't care what one is into there are always those "purists" that will say using technology is cheating. I came from an RC aircraft hobby where we had single channel radios and have advanced to multichannel computer radios and even today we have autonomous "drones" that fly themselves. Hey, whatever jerks your chain. If you enjoy cutting and shaping wood with hand tools.....so be it and more power to ya.
I personally like ready made clothing rather than a loincloth made from an animal I had to kill.....:rolleyes:
I would add that there should be distinctions made when judging ones work at shows or other events. IMHO

[jTr]

I agree with you, Bill. As I recently stepped away from the 'bot, having sent it on it's mission to turn a 4x8 sheet of plywood into parts for cabinets, I paused and thought; how did I/ would I survive without this robotic servant, making EXACTLY what I needed within a few thousandths of an inch accuracy? The thrill of making a perfectly square panel by hand or even the table saw is quickly replaced by a feeling of tedium and even panic, as deadlines must be met. Bills must be paid.

We all know these machines are becoming an implied necessity for anyone in the wood fabrication trade now. ( As with anything, there are a few exceptions - very, very few.)
Lately, I get the impression that my humble 'bot will soon be obsolete, and I'll need to invest in an even more advanced (bigger, faster, etc.) machine just to keep up with expectations of clientele.

I still call the things I make handmade. Because the final shape, form, fit and finish still relies on a sole individual to complete with focus and attention on the end result. On average, only 10 - 15% of time spent completing a project are on the CNC. The rest is up to me and my hands. If the large scale industries are allowed to label a product "American Made", even though 30-40% came from overseas, then I certainly feel comfortable calling my products handmade.

So - perhaps the definition of the word "handmade" needs to be revised to fit the world we live in now, just like the declaration "made in america".

First person who says you're cheating using a CNC will be the last one to pony up for 100% pure handmade. Of that, you can be certain.

jeff

[steve_g]

The conversation goes like this…

Q Wow! How long did it take to carve the seal of the state of Texas on that box?

A Well… An old rancher gave me the Pecan tree that was blown over in a storm. Two friends and I spent 3 days with chainsaws and tractors getting the bole (trunk) out of a field and on a trailer to take to a sawmill. After the sawmill cut the tree tree into slabs, the lumber was kiln dried in a state of the art, digitally controlled kiln to 6%-8% moisture content. This process took about two years before I had useable lumber in my hands. When I decided to make this box, I resawed 2” lumber on my bandsaw into ½” thick pieces, these thinner boards were left for several months to acclimate to their new size and shop conditions. Before cutting the boards into box parts, I surfaced them to their finish thickness with my surface planer. I love how box joints look; I could have cut them with a jig on my table saw but decided to cut them with my CNC router. After assembly, I finished sanding them with a belt sander and an orbital sander. I put the finish lacquer on with an airless spray rig. At this point the boxes are one piece… I cut the lid off after the box is complete, assuring 100% box and lid alignment, also the grain pattern runs uninterrupted from lid to base. At this point I finish the interior… it may be lacquered, flocked, or lined with velvet. Hinges, hasps and other decorative brasses are applied after all lacquering is done. I cut the lid decoration with a V-bit on my CNC router from vectors I’ve fine tuned for this application. After cutting the design, I seal the cut surfaces and spray them black, wipe the surface clean and refinish the top if necessary… So, all told, it took about 3 years to make this box…

Q OH, I was wanting a handmade box…

SG

[waynelocke]

The "That's not real woodworking folks" always get me. If it were possible I would love to stand them between Thomas Chippendale and a cnc and watch the collision. They seem to ascribe ethical or moral values to skill sets — and odd how it works out but the skill set they have is always at the top of the heap. As I have gotten older I have tried to transition my self image from a woodworker to a furniture designer and care less by the day about technique. The skillset for cnc design and work is every bit as challenging as hand tool work.

I have never even understood what handmade means.

I also chuckle at the purists with their Lie Nelson and Veritas planes (of which I have a couple) working in the "old traditions." It seems alright to them to use hand tools made with the latest cnc metalworking tools and the latest advances in metallurgy but once they get them it's all hands.

[scottp55]

Just to add to what Ron said...look at Ted's last comment;
https://forum.vectric.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=33177:)

Hmm....wonder if my beaver dam is "Hand Made"......sure does better than the town's last road repair as far as holding up:)
Desktop is my favorite tool in the shop...and all I have to do is look in garage at all the templates we built for the house...to realize I was "Cheating".

By the time most of my projects are done...machine time is around 25% if that.

[woodshop]

My standard reply to all those purist handmade guys: "Do you have electricity in your shop?"
They usually back down.

[phil_o]

A few years ago I joined a local woodworker's group. Most of the members, all male, made their living building furniture etc. I was the only one in the group that owned and used a CNC. Before buying a Shopbot I taught high school woodworking for 35 years and built many pieces of furniture in my pre CNC era. I wanted to do something different. When I joined I offered my CNC services to anyone who might benefit. I was almost shunned, particularly by the older members of the group. I was older than any of them except for a few hobbyists. They never actually came out and voiced their objections but they didn't make me feel all that welcome. I usually make friends fairly easily but never made a real connection to any of them. I gave it a fair shot, stayed as a member for 5 years, exhibited in the annual craft fair. I also tried to get them to see the advantages of using social media and Sketchup to no avail. I left the group two years ago.

[chiloquinruss]

A few years ago I attempted to join a local group of 'woodworkers'. Some of these folks were really talented and I wanted to 'learn' some of their tricks. It was close to Christmas and they had been making toys for the kids. I thought I know how to get in, so I used Bill Young's rubber band dragsters and made 50 of them. The next meeting I asked for some help unloading my car and we brought in the toys. You would have thought I was the Grim Reaper introducing the plague! Sooooo, that was my last meeting with them and their skills. Russ

[Burkhardt]

On a positive note...I joined the San Fernando Valley Woodworkers earlier this year. Most of them hobbyists and older and while some have very well equipped shops, nobody has a CNC machine.
But I did not get any push-back and everybody was interested to hear about the CNC opportunities, even if they are not running to get one for themselves.
At least they have an open mind. Now I am planning to move to Colorado next year and will look around for some other woodworker community.
Anything known in the Fort Collins area?

[Brian Harnett]

I consider it cheating when someone buys a cnc machine and uses files bought or shared instead of designing their work, I was on a facebook CNC group for a short time the level of file sharing of copyrighted material was astounding, I said something about it and all hell broke loose. Needles to say I am not part of the group anymore.

Its just a tool it has made my life way more effective and efficient and profitable.

[dlcw]

This argument has been ongoing for years. A CNC is just another tool, like a tablesaw, jointer or planer. It just takes new types of skills to use a CNC machine then it takes to run other woodshop power tools. People that get all hung up on powertools versus handtools are comparing apples to oranges. They are two different types of processes with the goal of achieving the same results.

[Red F]

I know I'm kind of a smart ass, but I named my router "Hand". Got around that "hand made" problem.

[coryatjohn]

The CNC machine to me is not only a tool, it's a capability that allows me to turn my ideas into material objects in a manner I would be unable to do with typical shop tools.

I'm currently working on a project that so far has consumed over 1,000 parts to build two mirror image pieces. A few days ago I was checking tolerance and the difference between the two parts was less than a 1/16". I wasn't surprised. There is no way possible that I, with my low level of skill, could turn out such a project without a CNC doing the intricate cutting.

[WaltzWorks]

If it is, don't tell my wife that I have one!

[gergistheword]

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I gave up on my local woodworker's guild for the same reasons chiloquinruss did. I wanted to share what I had learned and learn from the other members. I participated in the annual shows. I went to monthly meetings. I considered getting involved in the board. I was the only one to enter and win in the "Best use of CNC or Laser" 2 years running and both years, I used my time accepting the award to argue that there should be no discrete category for CNC. It's about the final product, right? It's about learning to make something you've never made before, right?

In the third year, Scott Grove was brought in as a guest judge and speaker. If you are not familiar, he's an author and sculptor. He has some pretty closed-minded views on digital fabrication. His Ted Talk entitled "Your Craftsmen May Be Lying To You" is especially frustrating to watch. That year the CNC category was unceremoniously dropped from the show catalog the night before the show as well because there was "not enough interest". I had worked especially hard that year to make something that would not be attempted by hand. A pair of canoe paddles, twisted around each other and so thin you could see light through them. I guess took it rather personally since I had been the sole advocate of CNC in the guild. I and a few other vocal members took issue with Scott during his tear-down of CNC craft at the awards banquet. I finally snapped when he kept harping on about how all you need to do is "push a button" and the work comes off the machine finished with no effort. I asked where to buy one of these buttons. That was my last real involvement with the guild.

Here's Scott Video. It's especially funny when you know that he worked for Wendell Castle, one of my heroes in pushing the boundaries of design and woodcraft. http://www.wendellcastle.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfCOBDx4tvg

The tide is shifting. CNC craft is more appreciated now than ever. Uninteresting works can be made by hand or even faster on a CNC. As CNC becomes more common in shops, this argument will fade and the discussion will focus on the next frightening new tech to threaten those unwilling to give it a shot.

[bill.young]

It's interesting that you bring up Scott Grove...he has a Handibot with an indexer and I've been helping him out a bit.

[Rtibbs]

It's interesting that you bring up Scott Grove...he has a Handibot with an indexer and I've been helping him out a bit.

I guess that means he’s no longer a “Craftsmen”. He’s now, to use his own words, a Technocraftsmen”

[steve_g]

“Techno-Craftsman” … I kind of like that! If it makes someone feel better about themselves, they can call me that… It speaks to my woodworking skillset and my acceptance of the technology current in our day!

SG

[Bobtail Farms]

I know I'm kind of a smart ass, but I named my router "Hand". Got around that "hand made" problem.

LOL. (this parenthetical included because system message informs post >= 10 characters)

[bill.young]

Here's a new YouTube video from Scott Grove on CNC and craftsmanship, using his Handibot to cut bowtie keys as his example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx9HrdQSZ98

[Xray]

CNC is just a tool to use, or not, as one sees fit. I do alot of things "by hand" but of course, tools are used unless I am to gnaw the wood with my nails and teeth. So I am not sure [and don't really care] what cutoff the purists have, I suppose maybe no power ?

I know this oddball character purist type by my summer camper, sometimes when I am bored at night I go wandering around and he usually has a little crowd at his firepit. Somehow CNC came up and this guy thinks he is gods gift to woodworkers, his whole trailer is festooned with **** he has made, and I do mean ****. I ca s#$t out a better work of art than he'll ever make, but I never said anything to him about it and I don't begrudge a man to do whatever he wants to get enjoyment out of making things. Anyhow when he started trashing CNC "Oh yeah, any stupid kid can make things with a machine", I felt obliged to defend myself, as his comments were obviously aimed to me. Long and short, I said Ok, I have some things I have made at my trailer, I'll bring some by and let these people be the judge.
So I went back and got a few things and the firepit folks were blown away, especially the ladies. I even ended up selling one of the spot for $50, chick fell in love with it and wouldn't let it go, her dad was there and bought it for her. So the guy was humiliated and didn't say much more after that, hopefully learned a lesson but I doubt it. Yes of course, there are guys who make stunning works of art "by hand" and do all sorts of things, I am a journeyman union carpenter and know a fair share of master carpenters whos skill level with wood I will never aspire to, but there is room enough for everyone to do as they please is the way I see it. Those who don't at least partially adapt to technology eventually end up missing out in one way or the other.

[phil_o]

CNC is just a tool to use, or not, as one sees fit. I do alot of things "by hand" but of course, tools are used unless I am to gnaw the wood with my nails and teeth. So I am not sure [and don't really care] what cutoff the purists have, I suppose maybe no power ?

I know this oddball character purist type by my summer camper, sometimes when I am bored at night I go wandering around and he usually has a little crowd at his firepit. Somehow CNC came up and this guy thinks he is gods gift to woodworkers, his whole trailer is festooned with **** he has made, and I do mean ****. I ca s#$t out a better work of art than he'll ever make, but I never said anything to him about it and I don't begrudge a man to do whatever he wants to get enjoyment out of making things. Anyhow when he started trashing CNC "Oh yeah, any stupid kid can make things with a machine", I felt obliged to defend myself, as his comments were obviously aimed to me. Long and short, I said Ok, I have some things I have made at my trailer, I'll bring some by and let these people be the judge.
So I went back and got a few things and the firepit folks were blown away, especially the ladies. I even ended up selling one of the spot for $50, chick fell in love with it and wouldn't let it go, her dad was there and bought it for her. So the guy was humiliated and didn't say much more after that, hopefully learned a lesson but I doubt it. Yes of course, there are guys who make stunning works of art "by hand" and do all sorts of things, I am a journeyman union carpenter and know a fair share of master carpenters whos skill level with wood I will never aspire to, but there is room enough for everyone to do as they please is the way I see it. Those who don't at least partially adapt to technology eventually end up missing out in one way or the other.

Just want to say that I enjoyed you post. I like your attitude. I have been doing woodworking, carpentry for 60 years. I taught high school woodworking for 35 years. I've made most of the furniture in my home and a lot for other people. I am very proud of what I have made, but I have made many projects on my CNC (Shopbot) that I wouldn't even attempt by hand or with traditional power tools. CNC has vastly expanded my repertoire.

Phil

[jTr]

Watched the new video. Suddenly, He's gone from accusing those of us with CNC's of being dishonest:"Is your craftsman lying to you" to declaring himself a very clever guy who knows how to make money now that he's discovered the CNC. Couldn't continue watching once I heard that self-congratulatory introduction. Never mind the fact that these inlays have been done to distraction for years now, with pre-fab templates, guide collars and routers, (all produced with machines, including gasp CNCS) available from any purveyor of woodworking supplies, and we all know it.

Hardly "hand work".
Hardly original.
I've lost a lot of respect for him in lite of this chameleon-like arrogance.
(Yeah, I know - I'm likely just jealous, and I know, he's just working at keeping a career going, like the rest of us)

Honestly, for my clients, I've received nothing but a vote of confidence once the fact is disclosed that I use a CNC. It's usually read by them as an indicator that I am serious about the business, and committed to getting their job done efficiently, safely, and with the highest level of accuracy.
Moreover, it's seems most clients realize it is not simply a push-button cookie cutter, or they'd be standing at the Lowes "custom" cabinet counter. Thankfully, it appears good sense may, in reality, be quite common indeed.

The machine can truly be an extension of the craftsman's creativity, not simply a key to looking smart and making more money.

Good grief, Mr. Grove. Think before you pontificate.

In closing, I'll extend my forgiveness, and welcome him into the world of digital fabrication. It's pretty dang awesome in here!!!

jeff

[pro70z28]

I think you can apply that argument to many many trades. I've been a sign shop owner for decades. I started out hand lettering. Then computers came along and I started punching paper pounce patterns with a plotter. Didn't take long and I passed on paint altogether and started cutting vinyl letters and graphics.

About 100 years ago, lol, well almost another lifetime anyway, I airbrushed murals on conversion vans (1970's). Today I print wrap graphics on a large format printer. Then there are even purists within the wrapping community, that say if you use the new ''air egress vinyl'' that makes it much easier to apply bubble free wraps, you're cheating. Because a real wrapper should be able to apply a wrap without that crutch.

Anywhere technology has advanced a trade, there will always be the old school guys that don't want to change. My philosophy is, if I can do the job faster and better with modern tools, I'll do it. After all, the finished job will be admired long after the technique, and the artist for that matter, is forgotten.

[chiloquinruss]

I have had my Bot for 12 years now and I have produced some amazing things because of the machine and of course the great Vectric software. For pure inspiration though I have a fun site that I check into once or twice a month. It's a site were 'things' to do are posted by Matthias. He uses a band saw a lot. He uses a table saw a lot. He has plans for building a band saw (from wood). He designs marble machines, rubber band Lego guns, some really fun stuff. I have made four or five of his jigs. He does a lot by hand. He does a lot by machine. He shares all of his ideas with us. Is CNC cheating, not one bit when used like he does. Russ

The site is: Woodworking For Engineers
https://woodgears.ca/