Vinyl Software for the shopbot, using "Vinyl"software for routing

[papadaveinwy]

I started this thread to open up conversation on plotter type of software to be used for the shopbot as a design tool for routing designs in wood. I use VE LXI put out by Scanvec Amiable, This soft ware is a freebee when you buy a plotter for vinyl from Sign Warehouse, I don't know if you can buy just the software or how much it would cost. But I can tell you it is awsome for doing 2D signage. I can do nesting, import a bitmap and trace it, design a sign in aprox. 1 or 2 min. with all registering, sizeing,etc as for off sets you can do kerneling manually or automatic you can oversize or under size to achieve the offset just by typing in a box the offset amount. You have total control over the design. it will format to flexi, Inspire,5x,Adobe, Casmate. Corel, and Signwizard, also it will export as .AI, .PSD, .CTM, .CGM, .GEM, .DXF, .EPS, FS, .FMV, .GAD, .IGS, .IGS, .JPG, .MET, .PNG, .TGA, .TIFF, .DWF, .AND .BMP IT ALSO IMPORTS EVERY FORM OF DRAWING OR PHOTO IMAGE FILE THERE IS 53 MAIN ONES AND EVERY KIND OF FLEXI OUTPUT. So if I have a customer that brings in a logo or whatever they have I don't have to worry what it was done in. I CAN OPEN IT!!! any way if you all would imput what type of "vinyl Signage" software you use or whatever lets get this thread going so we can see the potential of this type of software. David in Wyoming

[papadaveinwy]

Hey moderator how about a spell check for guys like me! I just looked at my post and man do I need help today!!!!!

[rookie432]

Dave,

A good thread to start. Considering I was eating up all the space on Gerald's thread.
sorry Gerald. The Vinyl software youre using sounds a lot like the VMP I was so exhuberant about on the other thread. (I'm not going to type all that
again) Vinyl software seems like a fairly overlooked source for great design software. Vinyl cutters or plotters are basically cnc machines in themselves so it makes good sense that the software for these have been well developed over the last 30 years. I have found myself always looking at cad/camm packages for "the answer" to my design problems. Of course we all know that there is about a hundred ways to skin the same cat with cam software, and you can pay about as much as you want for them. Vinyl software can get up there too but if you can find a happy medium between features and price I think Vinyl software is a perfect bridge between visual design and actual milling.

Now that I have second the motion, Dave is open for questions.

[gerald_d]

And I'll third the motion. Bill, no need to re-type - just link (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/27/818.html?1048622966#POST8489) to it!


Bill has VinylMaster Pro (http://www.progressivesignsystems.com/vmp/vmp.htm) (paid $500) and David has Vinyl Express LXi (http://www.signwarehouse.com/software/ve/lxi.htm) (free with plotter purchase, list price $1000 -$4000).

It looks like these as great packages for sign layouts and designs and that they can produce files up to dxf stage - what I would call the CAD side. Going from .dxf to SB-code (CAM), Bill uses Vector and Parts Wizard, David uses the SB converters.

[papadaveinwy]

Well Guys one more two cents worth! Not only Do I believe the software is a great way to design for every kind of 2D signage but in my case like I said I got it along with the Plotter,I paid a total of $2700.00 for a 24" plotter cutter. The machine has more that paid for itself 20 times over in the year I have had it but I got the software (when you lood at the price of machines) for free.I can do a simple v-carve or turn around and do an Island hatch and rout out the background just by clicking one button. David in Wyoming----------Sorry just lost my train of thought, spilled my coffee, snap crackel zzzzz fry. oh well.

[papadaveinwy]

Gerald thanks for posting the links, I just looked at the two and I find the new version of VE Lxi has a couple of new features in the master plus that I don't have will have to do an upgrade. Thanks again. David in Wyoming. Buy The way, I also have Inspire Pro by scanvec and it is one heck of a program, I use it for large format printing (60" wide) but it also has a complete cam package for routers engravers etc. I am in the process of trying to develope a driver for the shopbot, not a lot of luck so far but I think I may have stumbeled onto something that may work. This software is unreal, when I bought it it was $6,000.00 for the software but alas scanvec no longer supports it. That is the problem with high priced software. but it keeps on ticking.

[kfitzgerald@graphicmetalsinc.com]

BobCAD-CAM has a deal right now (until the end of this week) for version 18 for $495.00 (regular price $1,295.00). The salesman told me that they have a ShopBot postprocessor included with it.

Since I already have a CAD program I am familiar and comfortable with, why should I buy Vector instead of BobCAD?

Regards,

Kevin Fitz-Gerald
Project Manager

Graphic Metals, Inc.
P.O. Box 31
715 East Perry Street
Bryan, OH 43506
Voice 419-636-5757
Fax 419-636-6404

kfitzgerald@graphicmetalsinc.com (mailto:kfitzgerald@graphicmetalsinc.com)

[rookie432]

Dave,

Thats the beauty of the VMP program. No good, better, best, version. You get it all for the same price. I spoke with them the other day and they do have an upgrade for those of us that have the 1-2 yr old version. They have incorporated ripping capabilities for your printer.I believe you automatically get this if you buy the current version. They also told me that they have an engraving program in "the works". Cool!

Bill

[papadaveinwy]

Kevin this thread is about using Vinyl plotter software for the bot, we are not touting Vecter or any type of Cad drawing software the software we are talking about is designed primarily for sign design with a "soft Cam" function built in, you can manipulate x and Y, starting points, sizeing, bitmap trace,etc. the only function not available is z plunge manipulation as the plotters for vinyl do not have this 3rd axis. even though they do have "z" up and down built in so the cutter on the plotter comes up and down when it needs to. So you have to use either the shopbot dxf converter or BobCad-cam or Vector or parts wizard or whatever to manipulate the Z plunge depth.

No Cad/Cam program is designed just for signmaking,>>> These software packs are designed just with signs in 2D in mind. It really simplifies the design process for 2D signs. David in Wyoming.

[papadaveinwy]

Bill I will have to look closer at VMP Thanks David in Wyoming

[Mayo]

SignLab version 5 with the router module works great for cutting vinyl AND for creating router tool paths directly AND it creates shopbot files with the shopbot driver - no need for conversion.

With the router module, there's no need to figure out any offsets for bit sizes - the program does this automatically for you based on what bit you select for creating a particular tool path. It allows you to set your Z depths with the tool path, and to specify one pass or multiple passes, and what depth per pass.

It's a very intuitive, visual program that allows you to see your tool paths before cutting, and if you selected a bit that's too large for what you wanted to cut, or you specified too deep of a cut with a V-bit, it becomes obvious just by viewing the graphics on screen.

If you can't spring for SignLab but you are comfortable generating your own offsets and then converting files, and then specifying your cutting depth, you can get Corel Draw to design in. Many sign makers use it exclusively and there are some plotter manufacturers that make drivers that allow vinyl cutting or drawing direct from Corel.

For cutting on the shopbot, you would need to export the file (usually as DXF) and convert with the shopbot file converter.

[rookie432]

I have an idea.
Bear with me and let me know if I'm out of line on this, but what about a software comparison project. First let me clarify that I'm not proposing this as a "my software is better than your software" project. More like a lab experiment to see the end result of the multitude of software capabilities available to us. Kind-of like a consumer reports experiment.
That being said my idea is to take a standardized/ basic design ( for example a COCA Cola logo or a simple standardized sign panel) and have each of us create it using our preferred software package. With a simple step by step as to how we got to the end result. I figure a small sign panel would work best for this because all software packages have lettering capabilities and not much in the way of joinery and the like would be required.
Any embellishments would be acceptable to show the true power of each software package.
I think it would be very interesting to see the end result of a standardized project using different packages.
ie: Vector-Partwizard-Rhino-Signlab-Enroute-Bobcad-Flexi-Artcam Pro- Vinyl Express-Vinyl Master Pro-Corel-and the list goes on.
The project can be done in 2D/2.5D/3D etc. any way you like to show individual software capabilities.
Obviously everybody is at different skill levels so I don't want this to be a design competition, but more of a teaching and learning project.
I'll stop there. If anybody is interested I'd be happy to entertain ideas and help in developing this project.


Bill

[kerrazy]

Bill I think this is a great idea and would be helpful to all ShopBotters'

where do we start?

[papadaveinwy]

Bill, Dave here.
I think that would be a great Idea but I think it should be put into sub-categories Like 1. software designed for 2D, 2. Software for 2.5d, 3. Software for 3D. Etc. With the same logo wording etc. for each category, That way we could really see the potential of each design package and this would alow botters to evaluate packs based on what other guys are doing. This couls be set aside for future botters to look at. David in Wyoming P.S. Dale your package is in the mail this A.M.

[rookie432]

Dave,
sub catagories is fine with me. It is probably a good way to distinguish packages. As far as where to start Dale, I suppose it would be good to set some boundaries like size and time. I think a 24"x 24" or 24" by 30" would make for some good examples. The shape can be anything your imagination desires as long as it is within agreed upon size constraints. I think we can leave the substrates up to the individual. As a matter of fact it might be interesting to see different substrates like wood, pvc, corean, signfoam, etc.
Next we would have to agree on the standardized design. I'm very open to suggestions on this and would like to see something that could be hung up in your shop as an example or donated to a good cause maybe after their done. Just don't want to see you guys spend time on something you'll just end up chucking in the wood pile when were done.
As far as time frame 30 days is plenty for me but you guys will have to keep me honest on this because I'm an evening and weekend warrior shopbotter, or pretty much any hour I'm awake and not committed to other things.
Then we'll need some volunteers to execute the project. The scope would be to choose your preffered software and execute the project and provide pertinent information such as.
1) how you accomplished what you completed in an illustrated "step By step" . I think this should include pictures ,screenshots, and a description of each step.
2) how long each step took you
3) a brief summary of your software package. An honest evaluation of its strengths and weakneses.
What you like and dislike about it.
How long it took you to learn how to make it work for you. And maybe the out of the box experience.
I'm sure you guys would agree with me that we'd like to see a good array of software packages represented, but I wouldn't be adverse to two volunteers using the same package because I'm sure the end result wouldn't be the same and it would be a good way to show two perspectives with the same boundaries.

The floor is now open for suggestions.

Bill

[kerrazy]

all arond, I think you are edfinatley in the right direction... I wold be more than happy to talk about Corel Draw... and even demo some of Part wizard... but this is about my extent, and I would have to stay with 2 or 2.45 D files. Lets pick a design and for this I think I have something. Our group has a logo I can not get to figured out and it is for a non profit group so it has a cause to support as well.

4493

[papadaveinwy]

Dave here I'm all for what Bill has said, The one thing is (I think Bill was stateing it also) We need to allow everyone to use a design of there own chooseing but within say 3 or 4 designs to pick from in each category ie: 3or4 for each 2d 3d etc. That way people could show how they are designing with their software and we could get 5 or 6 of the same design with 5 or 6 ways of doing it. along with the aspect of different styles of artistic interpretations of the same theme. If we just pick some designs ideas and what is to go on them then let the folks run with it. just a thought Dave in Wyoming
Dale I'm going to pull out my copy of inspire and do a cutting file and design package of you logo and write you on how it was done so you can look at it and then play with yours, The inspire lets me take a logo like yours and separate it based on color. Then it can be cut in pieces and reassembled to give a 3D look (2 1/2 D)

[rookie432]

Dale,
Great logo. I'm not sure what "Against the Grain" is but your logo makes me want to smile.
It is on the upper end of challenging though and considering that I'd like to recruit all skill levels We might want to standardize something a little simpler and let the volunteer create his/her embellishments based upon their ability.
If your having trouble with this logo I'd be happy to convert it to a partwizard file for you to construct a great sign as well as offer some ways to create depth for this. Feel free to e-mail me your logo in a .bmp/.jpg/ or eps. format.

Bill
Rookie432@aol.com (mailto:Rookie432@aol.com)

[rookie432]

Ahh,
Dave beat me to the enter key.

Bill

[rookie432]

Dave,
I do like the idea of "theme" that is what I was trying to get across without summarizing it in a single word. If you haven't noticed, I can get a bit wordy.
Since the Shopbot Jamboree is coming up we can use that as a theme or to expand the posibilities we can do our local school sports team and donate the sign to the school. Who knows you might open a line of business with them afterword.
Just some Ideas.

Bill

[papadaveinwy]

Bill.>>>>>>> [
] , Dave in Wyoming P.S. I put the little "arms" on my smiley to indicate I'm from a cowboy State."Draw"!!!!

[valensign]

Just My 2 cents worth.. I really like the Idea.. And I know Im not a regular (Here everyday). But I would be intrested in that also. One IDEA for the theme would be for supporting our troops and donate them to the Military bases around the country.. Maybee a big undertaking but an idea.

[papadaveinwy]

Bill good Idea but I'm afraid that the Gov. is a little funny on that you see they have special specs that you have to follow and they don't like to let go of the control.I know I do a contract for the DOD. David in Wyoming

[valensign]

True True Didnt think about that. Should have know better I do Park service stuff here. Nice contact but BORING.

[rookie432]

Well, Guys I'm glad to see this has generated some interest. I would like to see some more volunteers but wouldn't have a problem with us leading by example. I sure was hopin Ron would get in with Rhino and Gerald with Vector (hint, hint)
. Anyway, I say at this point choose your weapon. For me it will be VMP. As far as a theme I have reccomended your local school sports team or the Shopbot Jamboree. Still way open to suggestions. I like the America theme but this theme could be surrounded by some controversy at this time and I want everyone to stay friends here.
So lets pick a theme, our preferred software, and a completion date. I'd be happy to track accordingly.

Bill

[valensign]

Well I could do Signlab/Engravelab and ArtCam.. The reason I said both is that I design in Signlab and write codes in Artcam.
As for date a few weeks or so.
Do we want a step by step process of how we did it or more of a review on software

[rookie432]

I think both Bill.
The "how to" explains a lot about our thought processes when designing and "why" we chose to do it the way we did.
As for using a design program to design and a milling program to mill I'm all for it because this is how I manufacture. Unless you chose Artcam PRO or Vector where you design and create a g-code right from the software. Any way you like. We just want to see how people get to the end using different software packages and rate those packages.

Bill

[rookie432]

p.s.
I'm looking at about 4 weeks to give everybody time. How about theme?

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

4494


RHINO/Vector

[rookie432]

O.K. Ron,
I don't know about my companions but I'm slobberin. A picture paints how many words?
Still Interested in the "how", "how long", etc. etc. You see this is exactly what I'm looking for as far as the "what" can you accomplish with different software packages. I think you also answered a question I proposed to Dave through e-mail yesterday.
Does this mean your in for the test?


Bill

[Ron Brown]

Still Interested in the "how", "how long", etc. etc. You see this is exactly what I'm looking for as far as the "what" can you accomplish with different software packages.

Steps -
Imagine project
Figure where the toolpath needs to be
Write code
Cut -

Time at 1 in/sec was about 8 minutes. Bit - 120V from Her-Saf diameter of pattern ~ 8"

Before I had RHINO, I wrote a similar raised star "by hand". It did not have the "checkering" in the background

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

4495

7.5" X 6.5" X .700 depth
cutting time ~2 minutes @ 1"/sec

Toolpath in Rhino - order in Vector

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

ReDeaux; about the size of a "CD". ~2 minutes cutting. To get "smooth" sides, I had to change segemented lines to arcs in RHINO. Note how the "scroll" appears like it has a hand-carved "twist" to it.

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

4496

[bruce_clark]

Ron,

That is pretty cool. Are you doing a bit change between the stock removal and the finishing pass down the center of the scroll? It looks concaved from the photos.

Nice job,

Bruce

[rgbrown@itexas.net]

Thanks Bruce,

Yes I am doing a bit change. I was using a straight bit to carve the "walls" and an 1 -1/4" core-box bit for the "cove". It is a fast part to cut, IMO.

Ron

[rookie432]

Just thought I'd join with a photo. Just finished this mantle carving for a local cabinet maker. Done by scanning designs in and vectorizing in VMP then using pointed roundover bits and pocketing to complete. No 3d software so had to come up with another way to get the carved look.


4497


Bill