3HP versus 5HP Columbo

[lto]

Those with the 3HP spindle, do you sometimes wish you had gone with the larger 5HP instead? I am hoping to mount an air drill alongside the spindle. If that doesn't work out I'd like to have the option open of adding another router on a second Z axis to do the drilling, (small holes).

Thanhs for your input in this great forum!
Louis

[andrewm]

I have a PRT, but so far I haven't had a single issue with the 3HP spindle. For me the choice was made primarily because of:
1. Noise - router was out.
2. Electric requirements - I only had access to single phase.

We run all day long cutting 3/4" MDF single pass at 2.5 inches per second.

[wesday]

I have a 3hp Colombo dual mounted with a PC. Cut 1/2 mdf 1 pass at 4-6 ips. I too was limited by single phase power but I am happy with my 3hp. Also I am going to add a second spindle in the future and two 3hp is all that will fit.

[gerald_d]

I am totally convinced that a 3HP spindle has much more power than a 3.25HP router. The way of measuring the HP is different. The spindle guys could add at least 40% to their HP figure if they used the same system of measurement as the router guys.

In "Porter Cable -speak" a 3 HP spindle is at least 4.2 HP.

[mikejohn]

Gerald
I notice fom a number of your posts you've never gone the spindle route, using first a grinder, then a router.
Any particular reason for this?

[bob_lofthouse]

Hi Wes,

Cutting at 4-6 ips ....Are you using an Alpha or Prt...

Many thanks

[gerald_d]

Mike, we use the grinder (6mm collet 27 000 rpm deep reach) and router (6/8/10/12mm collet 22 000 rpm), because they are sooooo much cheaper than the "spindles". For us it is the same philosophy as using a ShopBot versus a high dollar machine.

[mikejohn]

Gerald
Seeing you have isolated your ShopBot in its own room, and have no noise problems, is there any downside to your system?
It seems to me you could replace the grinder many many times before reaching the price of a spindle?
Why, after all the years with the grinder, did you introduce the Router?
Mike

[gerald_d]

I really cannot think of any downside at all. (except maybe that the door is hard to pull open when the extractor fan is running)

When we started with guitar necks, we had to run "huge" (2" bowl and rounding over) cutters with 0.5in shanks - hence the router. The grinder's reach is still the best for working between clamps.

[mikejohn]

Gerald
I have a number of follow-up questions which are not confined to the subject of this thread, so I have put them here (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=2&post=18113#POST18113)

[wesday]

Robert,
I am running an Alpha.

[Ryan Patterson]

I am thinking of upgradeing to a spindle from a PC. I would like to have the 5hp spindle for $200.00 more (3 phase) but am told that it will not fit with dual Z. I have an Alpha. I can cut 3/4" mdf at 5 ips, 3/4" plywood at 4" ips, 5/8" melamine at 6" ips all in single pass. If I upgrade to the 3 hp spindle will I be able to increase my speed? If so by how much?

[Brady Watson]

Ryan,
Not sure on how much faster you can go with the 3HP; but I can verify that you cannot fit more than one tool with the 5HP in there! You can fit 2 3HP ones though...and you'll be rolling pretty heavy doing it.

-Brady

[Ryan Patterson]

Thanks Brady
At the speeds I am cutting at, I know I am working the PC over time(blowen fuses). I have a Pc in the front Z and a drill in the back Z. I am still using the PC mount for the drill. Do you think I will see a $3,000.00 Improvment in cuuting?

[Brady Watson]

Yes I do, actually.

I have gotten a number of jobs from other botters that didn't have a spindle. As a result, they weren't able to cleanly cut hard woods without burning. You have ZERO runout with a spindle...a PC has .008" RO right out of the box when new. Your cut quality will go up because you can precisely control RPM, and in turn, chipload...which results in longer lasting tools and better cuts. The sheer number of tools that you can buy that will fit in the spindle vastly exceeds that of a router...and means that your tooling costs will go way down because you will not be forced to use 1/4" and 1/2" shank tools. The ability to use a REAL 1/8" collet opens up a whole new world for your bot...trust me! The speed at which you can cut will also increase, boosting your productivity...AND if all of that isn't appealing enough, a spindle is just downright sexy if you ask me. It's silky smooth, quiet and just downright professional looking. So when customers and friends visit your shop, your Bot now looks professional. It's what seperates the boys from the girls as a professional CNC owner/operator. If you are doing a lot of cutting, you will never regret the investment of a spindle.

-Brady

[gerald_d]

Frankly, it is this type of over-hyped sales talk around around spindles that is going to stop me from purchasing a spindle for a while longer. I find it particularly demeaning when a salesman gets into sexist talk...".....a spindle is just downright sexy if you ask me. It's silky smooth, quiet and just downright professional looking. So when customers and friends visit your shop, your Bot now looks professional. It's what seperates the boys from the girls.....". Not on.

Ryan, have you read this thread (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/27/6761.html)? You are getting very impressive speeds from your PC, and it would appear from the above that a spindle is not going to improve those speeds significantly.

[mikejohn]

Does this mean my shopBot is amateurish, and I'm a big girls blouse?
Funny, what I'm making looks great to me, and its working at a speed I am pleased with. And I don't seem to be going through that many bits.
When customers and friends visit my shop they go "wow!' at the sight of the ShopBot.
Perhaps they are all girly too.
I thought in a previous thread on this subject there had been agreement that it was 'horses for courses' as far as spindle or router was concerned. I don't understand why some opinions here seem set in concrete. Is somebody getting commission?
............Mike

[elcruisr]

Ryan,
depending on your production needs the 5 hp can be a great upgrade. I cut 3/4" ply, melamine, mdf, particle board, etc. at 10"/sec. Only on small complex parts is the cut slower just because of accel/decel. In my shop we cut very large volumes of parts (like 50,000 to 80,000 per year) and the 5 hp was the only way to go. I would like a second z axis on a few occasions but the benefits in faster production outweighs it for my application.

You'll really see the increased cut quality in hardwoods and plastics. Also, like Brady said, the ability to run a high precision collet of any size has allowed me to tackle some unusual requests without searching for tools that are hard to find.

Eric

[bleeth]

Ryan: Your needs depend on your output. If you are using your bot primarily with heavier bits to cut out a lot of parts (kitchens, furniture, etc) Then more power is more better. Just because I can make my 10" cabinet saw sing doesn't mean I can't appreciate the value of an Alty. If you are doing a whole lot of fine bit work such as lithos and carvings then PC's can work fine. As you said, you are popping breakers and stressing your PC. That means you need a stronger tool and you probably don't need us to tell you that. My wife thought her Nissan Altima was great until she got her Volvo s-80 and now she'll never go back. If you have to have the double z in your operation than you should go with the 3HP as it is a much stronger and more consistant tool than the PC 3HP. If you can give up the drill (Maybe a used market Ritter) then go for the 5HP. Beyond the other advantages mentioned here the constant speed/torque and infinitely variable speed are highly functional aspects.
No-one responding to your question here is a salesman for SB and when it gets down to it you have to make up your own mind.
For me, I'm glad I bought mine with the spindle and I would never downgrade to a router.

Gerald: If Brady calling his spindle sexy stops you from buying a spindle then I need to tell you your not sending me a cashiers check for $50K is really sexy!!!
.

Dave

[Brady Watson]

Gerald & Mike,
My company doesn't sell spindles. Nor does it receive kick-backs, gifts or any other means of compensation for sharing my experiences and opinions regarding my spindle.

It does however sell CNC cutting services and strives for excellence. I believe that my spindle gives me an edge over other CNC router owners in my area, quite simply because I can cut a larger range of products better than they can. I can only comment on MY personal experience regarding a spindle. If a little rib-poking causes you to get upset, then I appologize for spending thousands of dollars from my life savings on my spindle and sharing my enthusiasm with the group.

So, if a 3 or 5HP spindle offers no real advantage over a PC router that overheats and burns your hand (before you spend months finding the right replacement bearings for it)..then why do spindles in this HP range exist? Is it all just sales hype? Why does BMW continue to make cars when a Ford Ka will 'getcha there'? There IS a vast difference in quality of cut and performance of a spindle. Some NEED it, others just WANT it and some just don't. You may not need a spindle and very well may be happy using brand XYZ. That's great! If you think that you might need a spindle, go visit another botter that has one to see, hear and smell if it is right for you.

I'm a grass-roots kinda guy & I understand that a spindle is quite an investment. By no means would I ever intentionally belittle someone becausee they simply couldn't afford a spindle. You buy what you can afford and upgrade when you can. Personally, I hate buying tools that let me down...or buying tools twice since they earn me my money. A PC is fine for many users depending on what they are cutting. If you are a job shop as I am, then it just makes sense, to me, to invest in tools that aren't going to let you down and give you some advantage over the next guy that didn't invest in a spindle.

-Brady

[gerald_d]

Brady, I assume that you apply a different philosophy when you defend your decision to buy a ShopBot (girl's Ford Ka) as opposed to a Thermwood or Multicam (boy's BMW)?

[elcruisr]

Gerald,
We looked at everything up to a 150,000 Komo. We base our decisions on dollars returned for dollars invested. Why do you think that Shopbot is selling bigger numbers than the "Big Iron" companies? Because it's good business unless you really need the extra accuracy and speed. Like Brady we do in house as well as job shop work. I could not do what I do with a PC. I would also be making alot less money at the end of the year, at least at this point in my business with a mid or high end machine. We didn't buy it because it's cheap but because the bottom line is better. In fact in this country, at least, many many shops are arriving at the same financial conclusions in the CNC arena. There are now several new players in the lower price range market because that sector is so strong. The shopbot can be equipped as a "toy" or it can be setup as a production machine. I know for a fact that my machine has turned some heads in tha last few years in my area. Even my tooling supplier has admitted he has had to rethink the approach to CNC after watching us. Someday we may need a piece of "big iron" but only if it will be as profitable at the end of the year in my area of business. My tool buying philosophy is shaded by 20 years as a wooden boat builder. I only want the tools that last and do good work. But you also have to look at major tools from a bottom line perspective. That's why three shops in my region have bought "big iron" and gone bankrupt in the first year....

Eric

[Brady Watson]

No...same philosophy as you, Gerald. Buy the best tool for the job that you can afford, and upgrade to make it a better tool when you can, if necessary. I have nothing to prove, so I never have to 'defend' my decision to buy a Shopbot. There is quite a difference between 'defending' and being enthusiastic about your Shopbot and the tool it pushes around.

-Brady

PS- Did your Geckos arrive yet? How are they?

[gerald_d]

Eric, your logic is sound, and at least you had the decency to put "toy" in quotes. Our "toy" is working 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, to the the extent that we actually tried to sub-contract some big-iron guys this week. However, because of the amount of money they owe the bank, they quote prices double ours and they maybe run 10 hours a week total. Our market largely believes that cheap labor with jigsaws and sandpaper beats a big iron CNC on cost - but our clients are seeing the economy in our "toy".

Having said that, we are in the market for a spindle. At first it will probably be a second-hand one with conventional (non-ceramic) bearings that we can afford and maintain ourselves. From there, with time, and reading our market, we might move up or down the router/spindle ladder. I have a completely open mind about this, and on principle I will fight a sneering attitude towards guys who have, or are considering routers. (Maybe I need to try the PC brand, as opposed to our Makita, to see why some have such strong anti-router feelings
)

ETA: Cross-post with Brady - I type slowly.

The Geckos are in limbo between the US Postal Service and the SA Postal service - maybe lost

[David Arde (Unregistered Guest)]

I just talked to the colombo spindle suppliers for the central US. He said that the 5-7.5 hp spindles do not have ceramic bearings. They have aiospace grade bearings.

[elcruisr]

David, we don't run ceramic bearings in our 5 hp. That means 18,000 rpm max. That's fine for the feed speeds we can attain. Ceramic bearings are available in the 5 hp and up models which will give you 24,000 rpms if you need it. At additional cost of course...

Eric

[Ryan Patterson]

Wow,
Alot said for a simple question Thank You all. I am going to try the 3Hp spindle but need to change some wiring. My 3 phase is 240 volt will the 3 phase spindle work with with my power supply? I bought a prt96 3 or 4 years ago with no accessories. I added things here and there when I could afford the upgrade. I now have a Prt and an alpha both with most of the accessories and regenerative blower for hold down. After every upgrade I made I always wished I would of made them sooner. I hope the spindle is the same.

[mikejohn]

Brady
I appreciate your admiration for the spindle, and recognise its superiority over a router.
Rubbishing the router ShopBot setup, however, is probably not constructive criticism.
As we have said before, about spindles, vacuum and software, if it works for you, then it's right for you
..........Mike