Any luck with 1/16" round nose cutters?

[jseiler]

I'm trying to find a round nose 1/16" diameter 1/4"shaft 1/4" LOC endmill or router bit for doing fine detail in lithophanes. Any suggestions? I've been searching a while and keep coming up short (hehe) on LOC, or diameter or shaft diameter.

John

[steve4460]

Hi John

Check out onsrude.com

[jlawren6]

John,

You might check out McMaster Carr (www.mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com)). They have an excellent website that let's you search and sort their available endmills by various parameters. I did a quick search there for ball endmills and came up with at least one solid carbide, 2 flute endmill that was 1/16" diameter, 5/16" LOC, but 1/8" shank diameter for about $28. They had several more choices if you could live with 3/16" LOC. I know it doesn't meet your shaft diameter requirements, but you could order a 1/4" to 1/8" adapater from MLCS for around $4. I've heard they work well and am getting ready to try them out myself. I just bought my first ball endmills from McMaster and have been pleased with them so far. Just an option.

Jon

[billp]

John,
I get mine from www.mscdirect.com (http://www.mscdirect.com). They call them " end mills" and this bit has a 1 degree taper to it...It has about a 1" depth of cut (maybe a little longer I'm out of town at the moment so I can't check it..). it's the bit I use for my lithos when i need real detail...

[dmdraper]

A little secret...

Many of the bits that McMaster-Carr sells are made by Onsrud Cutter.

Dave

[jseiler]

Thanks guys. I found www.procarbide.com (http://www.procarbide.com). They look to be cheap offshore bits. Also 1/8" shank diameter but I have an adapter. I was hoping to find something like my 1/8" corebox with 1/4" shaft, only in 1/16", but that's much harder to find. I also bought some 1/4" endmills from procarbide which I'm anxious to try out especially at their low prices. So far I've tried mclswoodworking (ok-carbide tipped 1/8" round nose for lithos, their spirals aren't bad), router bit world (amana full carbide-pretty nice-I've cut a lot of hardwood with a 1/4" 2 flute slot cutter and its still very sharp) and my local true value (amana and freud). Haven't tried msc yet, but have been meaning to. I searched there, but didn't think to try a tapered bit. Great idea.

The problem I'm having with lithos is front on facial detail with 1/8" bit. The last time I tried this, everyone looked like they had mustaches. I thought a 1/16" might do the trick. Any other suggestions for getting more resolution on lithos?

For lithos, I'm kind of afraid to try 3/16" LOC for 1/4 corian, but it might work. I found plenty of suppliers with 3/16 LOC, but that extra 1/16" LOC really narrows the field.

I'll post a report after I try the procarbide ones since no one has referenced them yet.

thanks guys,
John

[jseiler]

Holy cow, those tapers are expensive. 60+? Am I looking at the right ones? I'd be terrified of breaking one.

[marshawk]

Try www.discount-tools.com (http://www.discount-tools.com).

This page, in particular: http://www.discount-tools.com/endmills/3200BTiCN.cfm

They usually have bits at a decent price, but you may have to call to remind them to send the part after a few days. They are honest, just a little dippy.

[jumbaugh]

John,
For Lithos the best 1/16 roundnose I've found is from cutting edge technolgies 800 233 9956. Recently bought another 5 for $33.05 Number is 12003bn... For REALLY fine work in lithos, they have a 1/32, spec 13001bn. Have to be VERY careful on the first pass with either bit. 1/8 shank but I think they have the adapters to 1/4"

[ron brown]

http://www.conicalendmills.com/carbide_mini.html has small point tapered endmils. They can be had with a rounded end. Tapered tools seem more rigid for machining to me.

Ron

[jseiler]

I tried the procarbide.com 1/16 round nose on a lithophane. I broke the first one trying to run it too fast on the first pass. I second one held up, but I ran it really slow (.4ips x&Y, .2ips z). This litho took about 10 hours to make (8x10") at .010"/stepover. The results were spectacular though. The bit was .25 CEL, 1/8" shank, 1/16" round nose bit. It seems plenty sharp too even with all that abuse.

I look forward to trying tapers as they may be a bit sturdier.

I haven't tried any of the other procarbide bits yet, but the 1/4" endmill looks pretty nice and seem sharp.

John

[billp]

John,
A MAJOR bit saver on lithophanes is to run the first few fractions of an inch with a larger bit than you intend to do the final cut with. This opens a channel for your final (and smaller) bit, and provides air circulation around it's tip.
Of course if your software allows "ramping"into the piece that would also be a nice touch..
After the first line or two you are really only cutting with the side of the tip of that bit. If it gets encapsulated within the material on the first few passes it will quickly over heat and snap ( I have a collection of my own, all little stubs....). You could do the first pass with a straight 1/8" bit and then go back, swap out to the ball nose, and rezero, etc...Since doing this process ( AND only using vacuum to hold the part down) I haven't broken any of the smaller ones.
I have cut lithophanes with a .125" bit at 2.5"a second , and a .0625"bit at 1.5"(after clearing out the first pass as mentioned above), and a stepover of .007"
Yes the tapers ARE stronger, but they cost a lot more than the smaller ones, and for lithos I like shorter bits, as there is less chance for chatter. While the 1.5"cutting length of the longer ones is great for 3D work, it is a liability when doing something as shallow as a lithophane. If it "trips" over a spot in your cut (OR your piece is not held in place firmly),it will break...

[jseiler]

Bill-What ramps are you using for x&y? What plunge speed for z and ramps for z on the 1/16 and 1/32" bits?

I like the idea of using the larger bit for the first couple of passes. I have an idea on how to modify the cutting file to gradually ramp into the first couple of passes with the small bit in
an automated fashion to eliminate bit change. I figure if I use the first two line of the relief, gradually increasing the depth, I should be able to get enough breathing room for the bit in a few passes. Haven't had the time to try it out though.

John

[cnc_works]

When I do a lithophane, I use a 1/4" roundnose bit for one complete clearance pass. It doesn't take long with a 1/8" stepover running at 90 or 100ipm and it seems to relieve the cutting duties of smaller bits considerably.

Of course, I am often cutting lithophanes in 1/2" material since I have a good supply of it, so the first pass can be quite a hog off. But I do the same even with 1/4" material.

My cutting speeds are similar to Bill's. I plunge Z at pretty high speed and let ramping be the limiting factor for Z speed. With the clearance cut I seem to get away with it OK.

Donn

[billp]

John,
My ramps are whatever the factory default settings are. (Since I have never completely understood the nuances of ramping, I have never screwed around with the settings...).
My plunge speeds are usually .5" to .75" on the Z axis. Since I use the ramped entry feature from Artcam I can modify the angle I approach the surface at, and that's usually a 10 degree angle.
Your idea of gradually entering the bit into the material on the first few lines will work.It does save a bit change, and re-zeroing as well. You could probably even spray a little water on the bit for the first few passes to keep things from heating up as well...

[drodda]

What software are people using to make the cutting files for the Lithophanes? Has anyone used the File Conversion program built into the SB3 software?

Bill P,

How do you use a larger bit for the first part and then use a smaller bit for the rest? I am invisioning Zeroing the larger bit a little above the actual surface of the corian and cutting the file like usual but at a faster speed. Then changing bits and re-zeroing the bit at the actual surface of the corian and then cutting again? Am I on the right track or just way off?

How do you permenantly back light one of these also?

I have been asked by my neice to make her one of these for her graduation and I am running short on time.

[billp]

Dave,
I have always used Artcam Pro to generate my lithophanes.
In instances where I see that I need some extra detail in certain areas of a lithophane (see the litho of a cat I have somewhere here in another thread...)I do the entire lithophane with a .125" ball nosed bit. Then I go back into Artcam and draw vectors around the areas where I'd like more detail. When I have identified those areas I go back and draw up a new toolpath only this time I tell the program to only cut within the "specific vectors" I have now identified. I swap out bits, place the .0625" bit in, and re-zero the machine. Then the new toolpath will ONLY cut those areas which have been placed within my vectors. This speeds up the final cutting time tremendously. Your idea of cutting at different depths with the same bit will not really gain you much in terms of fine detail...
Ah, the backlighting issue....As anyone who does lithos will tell you, THIS is the buga boo which keeps most of us from "mass producing"light boxes. It seems that due to the nature of each photograph having different details, density, contrast, etc. It is not easy (read damn near impossible) to make a singular sized box with the same depth for your light/lamp/bulb.
In some photos a distance of 3" from the back of the Corian/acrylic is perfect, yet that same distance with another litho creates "hot spots"or shadows. Then you have to move the bulb back until the effect is correct. Obviously we could all make boxes which are 5"deep and then just move the bulbs, but most customers (friends, family, etc) want something that looks as thin as a painting.
To get THAT effect there are some shhets of luminescent materials, but they are REALLY expensive per square foot.
Another option is to standardize the box , and use a "diffuser"of sorts so you can buffer the intensity of the light source while keeping the bulb at a standard distance, but this too is an inexact science.
The best bulbs I've tested to date have been either small (8-10"long) flourescents, OR in some cases compact flourescent bulbs. I like the compacts because they require NO ballast, and are therefore a lot easier to install. The "tubes" need the ballast to be hidden somewhat so they don't cast a shadow through the box...And by the time you factor in the construction of the box, and electrical work it usually makes the price of a lightbox prohibitive for most customers.

[tony_mac]

Dave,

PhotoVCarve can also be used to carve Lithophanes.

You can download a PDF manual and video tutorial explaining how to do it from,

Machining Lithophanes PDF (http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectric/pvc/docs/Machining_Lithophanes.pdf)

Machining Lithophanes Video (http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectric/pvc/flash/Lithophane/Getting_started.html)

Hope this helps,

Tony

[drodda]

Bill,
Thanks for the explanation. I have seen and read the discussion from before and was just wanting an updated explanation. Thanks and now I think I have a good idea of where to start.

Tony,
I have watched the vidoe and have printed your pdf and I am waiting the arrival of some small cutters to give it a try. I have only had a small amount of time to play with the photo v-carve since I purchased it. The program seems pretty staight forward and I am looking forward to seeing the results.

I am using a PC router so I had to find ways to use very small cutters in the router. I have ordered the stubby chuck for the router and this will allow me to use bits in shank size down to 1/32". I am hoping that this will bring out the detail in the Lithophanes.


Thanks,

Dave

[rookie432]

For those of you coming to the Jamboree I think my partner John Forney may have solved the lighting issue with lithophanes. From What I understand he has found and is distributing a thin LED light panel that can be mounted directly to the back of the lithophane and works beautifully. Can't wait to see it.

[drodda]

Bill,

Sure rub it in our noses. Some of us have to work and can't take time to run half way across the country to get free doghnuts?


If anyone could take a picture of this light panel and also a cost for it I would be greatly appreciative.

Thanks for the info Bill J,

Dave

[drodda]

What kind of prices are you guy getting on corian? I have a local company that sells the sink cutouts and such for $30.00 sq/ft for 1/2" thick. Is this a good price or is there a meterial that is cheaper that makes a good lithophane?

Thanks,
Dave

[rookie432]

Dave,
We will be adding it to our website with pictures and prices after the Jamboree if there is enough interest to distribute them > I understand they come in different sizes and prices are fair. I haven't seen them yet but John says they are impressive. Sorry about the doughnuts. Maybe I'll get a pic of those out to you too


Sounds like your getting soaked for the corian. Of course if you just need bits and pieces and its readily available maybe it's worth the lack of hassle. I buy mine in full sheets from Chemcore industries DOVAE brand. Plain solid acrylic full sheets run me about $14 per sq ft.
1 sheet minimum order. If you need two sheets or less freight is about $100 but I havn't needed any for a while and with the cost of fuel going up this may have gone up. More than 2 sheets has always been free freight in the past.
Bill P uses another type of acrylic that is much cheaper I think. Will have to ask him.

Bill

[rookie432]

PS PhotoVee carve does an incredible job with lithophanes. For $150 you cant beat it. Keep in mind We are a distibutor for PVC so we may be biased but the WOW factor is definitely there.And you can't beat the support you get from the Vectric guys.

[drodda]

What color of the Dovae are you using for this type of lithophane? I have a dealer here in Iowa and wanted to get a price for some.

[drodda]

Bill,
I already own the PVC and have not had much time to play with it. But I have been impressed so far with the results on the photo carving. I just have not had time to try my hand at the lithophane. I now have cleared some time in building tables to try to get this lithophane out for my neice for her graduation. I appreaciate all the information.

Dave

[rookie432]

any light color will work as acrylic is naturally irredescent. White seems to work the best. Dovae has some new fully irredescent bathroom colors. Light will pass through the full 1/2" thickness and comes in a light blue/green/teal. It is much pricier though and it is a blend so it may be much rougher on your cutters. Neat to see though. I imagine a lithophane may have less contrast due to the fact that light will pass thru the dark areas as well. Could be a neat effect but still sight unseen.
100% acrylic is softer so cuts easier than the polyester blends. Its about 10% more in most cases but saves your cutters and cuts smoother.
Your Iowa dealer may work a deal on fall offs for you.
B

[drodda]

So far they seem to be scared that I am looking to compete in the countertop business and don't seem willing to let me get my hands on any of the raw material fall offs or sheets.But I am hoping that after a little discussion with the owner they will part with some pieces.

[Towersonline]

Dave, You might try EBay for Corian. I bought some there some time ago.. quite reasonable.

I'm fortunate that a local fabricator lets me rummage in his cut off bin a take all I want for free.

[drodda]

I found a second local supplier and they only wanted $15.00 sq/ft for the cut offs. So I picked up a 30" x 24" piece this morning of glacier white. One question though can you use any other colors of the corian or does the specles in the color mess up the lithophane? What colors have you used?

Thanks for all the information. I received my new stubby chuck and miniature collets for my PC router last night ( thanks Brady) and should get my order of bits and engraving bit by the weekend. SO I should be ready to give this a try this weekend. I will post my results if it turns out.

Thanks,

Dave

[tony_mac]

Dave,

White seems to give the best results so you should be set with what you've purchased.

Top Tip - To avoid breaking cutters calculate the toolpaths at 45 degrees.

When the toolpath runs parallel to the X or Y axis the first pass will often be at full depth and full load on the cutter. If the cutter survives this loading, it then steps over and the loading on the cutter is reduced because only the stepover width of material is then being cut.

Cutting at 45 degrees, the cutter plunges into a coner of the job and virtually instantly stepsover, hence reducing the load on the cutter and avoiding breakage (hopefully).

I hope this makes sense,

Tony

[drodda]

I received the bits today also so I will try and kill a few bits tonight. The 45 degree thing makes perfect sense and I will keep that in mind.
Thanks for the information Tony,


Dave

[drodda]

Just a quick update. I did my first Litho last night. It took about 8 hours for a 16" wide by 13" tall oval cut into 1/2" corian Glasier white. It turned out awesome. I will post pictures once I have the backlight done but just wanted to say thanks for all the help. The Photo-Vcarve program was money well spent. I was really surprised by the WOW effect of these after waiting so long to get them cut.


Thanks,
Dave