Surfboards

[associated]

Does anyone or has anyone successfully cut surfboards? I see from other threads that people have enquired but I have not seen any success stories. I have been approached by the local shaper to see if I can make 50 of one of his designs. He says he needs them rough but I still wonder how many I could make in 1 day??

Zak

[patricktoomey]

I met a guy named Daniel Powell at the Orlando camp earlier this year. I'm pretty sure he had at least done some prototypes and I believe he was getting ready to make blanks for someone. I don't know if he ever did or not. He's a member of the forum, here is a link to his profile...
http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profile=daniel-users

Maybe he could give you some info or point you in the right direction.

[artisan]

One huge question comes to mind....are you responsible for the 3D shaping of the boards.....or are you merely cutting out 2D shapes? You can successfully cut 3 inch foam on an unmodified Bot and if you switch to a half inch bit and a 3/8 inch stepover, you can really do some rough shaping in a hurry. I use this method to rough out large foam pieces when I intend to hand finish them. You will have large "step" lines in the foam, but these sand out easily. The problem will come if the board is curved and must be flipped to shape both sides, in which case you will need a jig or registry strategy....which will slow you down, but is not that difficult to set up. Below is a statue cut and shaped in 3 inch slices....D



4856

[daniel]

Hey Zak, I have played around with the idea and have made a prototype. However Thats really as far as I got. If your making 50 boards that are all the same width, length and shape, then you should have no problem making a jig for hold down. I only made a few and it was a work in progress, so I never worked it out to the production level, therefore I'm not sure how many you can make in a day.

[billp]

Zak,
A couple of 'Botters out in Southern California rigged a basic "hot wire" cutter to their Z axis. It should let you cut your top/bottom profiles.
4857

[associated]

Thanks for the info. As far as I know the hot wire idea can't work as the blank has a central wooden stringer. Although I have never seen a blank myself. Darrell, I will try the 1/2 " bit with the stepover. We have Millwizzard and although it is very easy to setup a cut file it is very limited with the x and y raster cuts. You botters who have Artcam pro and other 3D cutting software, does the software cut raster fashion or some type of vector cutting? Also anyone have another software for 3d cutting that is reaonably priced? The millwizzard is just a little too basic for my needs & the US$8000 or so for the artcam pro is just too much.

Zak

[rick_woodward]

Darrell, i would be interested to know what software you used to create the female statue? Looks real good. Also, i assume that is eps foam. What are you using for the hardcoat. Had looked into foam but dont believe theres a market for it here. Still curious though for my own place.

[kenz]

This is what I use:
http://www.shape3d.com/

[associated]

Hi Ken,
You seem to be cutting surfboards with shape 3d & a shopbot? I have a few questions for you. How long does a board take to cut? What bits do you use? How have you addressed the hold down & flip over for the 'other' side to cut. Also, have you ever copied a board from an original? My client wants to copy his 'ultimate' board to 1/8" but I am very sceptical of getting the accuracy.
Thanks, Zak

[associated]

Do you guys think the probe will be able to accurately duplicate a board? From what I saw at the Shopbot demonstration it looked quite acurate. Also the fact that it is not very tall does not have much to do with where it probes. Am I correct? Thanks, Zak

[patricktoomey]

The height would not matter, the probe should do fine. I would think you could set a fairly course resolution since the board changes shape gradually. If you could probe even every 1/8" it should only be hours rather than days. Also, since you can just probe one half and then mirror it that would help. I've probed very detailed pieces an also large gently curving pieces with fairly good luck. I bring my point clouds into Rhino or 3DS Max and do some smoothing and averaging though since there is usually a little noise in there (point jitter). I would assume with a surfboard you're getting the rough shape very close and then hand finishing which would probably eliminate the need to clean the file.

[artisan]

Hi Rick.....I use Rhino, Sketchup and/or 3DS Max for all my 3D work. I use Visualmill and/or Artcam Pro for toolpathing. I use many hardcoats, but the most common is the elastomeric browncoat you see in the picture. This also allows for additional refinement of the model.

My business has leaned over to the housing industry lately and I am making architectural accents in foam for many of the higher end homes in my area. The shopbot is a natural for this and the market is gigantic. We are producing angels, eagles, corbels, Shells, medallions, letters and decorative corner moldings in EPS foam.

Sketchup has only recently realized their value to the CNC community. The current 3DS translator is a bit flawed....but I believe they are working on it. I would not be surprised to be doing 80-90% of my 3D work in Sketchup by this time next year....D

[rick_woodward]

Man ... you have some investment in software for sure. I had looked at sketchup , reckon i need to look at that again.3dsmax is real pricey an a learnin curve to match. You gotta have the memory of an elephant! Dang o mighty mister. Seems like i read somewhere you live in S. Carolina , Izat right? I live in the land of cornfields an beans. Indiana, conservative/cheap people/customers that squeak when they walk.. Have some guys here that do the stucco over foam on houses and buildings. They want alot for nuttin. Plus, they want it meshed, an ready for stucco. Then they tell me theres lots of ready made stuff reallll cheap. I dont desire to compete with cheap. The economy here tanked over three years ago. Housing here also. in fact there are lots of houses on the market. Sheriff sales included...I'm looking for different things i can do to stay afloat so to speak.wider range of output. 3ds max, basic version or the full deal? Thanks for your reply. AMD Ltd, sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread. But i think more than me got some input.

[benchmark]

Hi Zak

Have a look at this surfboard software from www.aps3000.com (http://www.aps3000.com)

They have a free trial download

Paul

[dhunt]

Zak, I'm coming to Trinidad this Sat. morning and wondered if maybe I could have a quick look at your PRT setup.
There are now two PRT's in Barbados(both of which I helped setup),
and I thought a look at yours would be instructive,
as is everyone's individual setup.

Please let me know.

David Hunt,
Barbados.
pcdoctor@sunbeach.net (mailto:pcdoctor@sunbeach.net)

[kenz]

Hi Zak,

First, let me tell you that I don't do production, only boards for myself and friends.

With the PRT the boards took about 15 minutes per side. I have the Alpha upgrade, but I haven't got it up and running yet. But I would imagine it will cut the time in half. This is with cutting around 50 toolpaths (along the length of the board) per side. This still produces scallops, so some light sanding still needs to be done after machining. You can run the Shopbot almost full blast, except on the stringer. Shape3d cuts the stringer slower than the rest of the board.

I use a 1 1/2" diameter 2-flute core box bit. Ideally, I would use a 2" diameter grit coated ball end mill, but I can't afford it. There is no problem with a large size bit, because cutting through foam is practically like cutting through air.

There are two ways to hold the board: By clamping at the ends at the stringer, and at two points on the bottom and top using vacuum pods. With the stringer method, you want to get the blanks made with the stringer sticking out 4 to 6 inches past the foam on both ends. You will use a jig attached to the table to register and clamp the ends. The two points on the bottom and top method requires an adjustable vacuum pod jig. You will need to pick some registration points that don't change from machining, like the center of the nose and tail.Then you will have to adjust the vacuum pods to reflect the curve of the surfboard. Cut the bottom first.

I personally have never copied a board with the probe or with a scanner, but I have friends that have. The reason a surfer wants a perfect copy is because they have a magic board that is deteriorating and they want a perfect replacement. The problem is with a hand-shaped board, there are a lot of imperfections that contribute to the "magic". Surfers can be extremely particular. They can really feel the subtle differences. Even with a laser scan, which picks up all the perfections, the end result rarely has the magic feel of the original. The reason being all the other variables that can't be controled, like foam density, fiberglass to resin ratio, and sanding inconsistentcies in finishing the fiberglass. In my opinion there are better ways to achieve a magic board.

Shape 3d is an excellent program for designing boards. They have a demo that you can try out. The CNC version costs a lot more, but is worth it if you plan on doing production numbers. If your CAM software can do toolpaths like the CNC version of Shape3d, then you can export the DXF model from Shape3d and use your CAM software. Any other type of toolpath is going to require more post-machining sanding.

APS3000 is coming along with their software, and it's free, but it's meant to be used exclusively with their own CNC machine. It will never output Shopbot or G-code, and it doesn't export model files.

Somebody that has a lot more experience than me, and is doing production numbers with a Shopbot and Shape3d, is Ken Reimers in Australia. He has a spotlight on the Shopbot site:
http://www.shopbottools.com/spotlight.htm

His personal web site also has a lot of pictures of his set-up:
http://groups.msn.com/MyKRSurf/machinecnc.msnw

It would be great to exchange ideas and Shape3d board files with others machining surfboards. Maybe in the future it could have it's own category in the forum.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

[associated]

Thanks all especially Ken ... I have just had a moment of clarity. This forum is priceless.

Zak

[daniel]

Hey Guys, I'm moving forward with this shaping machine idea. I have built a system for aligning the stinger before machining the first side, and after flipping the board. In my limited experince, I have found that clamping the stringer is not enough to hold the board steady during machining. The stringer is only about .25" thick.

So now I must build two adjustable suction pods for holding the board in place.

Ken, are you holding your boards by the stringer or with vacuum. If you are using vacuum, would you be willing to describe how you built your vacuum hold downs?

Thanks for any help givin!

[kenz]

Hi Daniel,

I've been using the stringer jig with the vacuum pods. But I don't think it's necessary to use the stringer jig anymore. I've been doing stringerless boards and just making a mark on the nose and tail for registration purposes. The stringer jig is useful for registering the blank, but if you are careful with where you position the vacuum pods, it's not necessary. 3 pods would be better, especially if you are cutting EPS — one on the nose, mid-board, and near the tail.

The pods are just like the other pods you see with the gasket material. The difference is that they need to be height adjustable, and able to swivel fore and aft.

I use a little different method than what most people use. It's basically a rocker table with gasket material. It's very crude, but it works. It's a piece of plywood screwed down to the table in the middle, at the rocker apex. Then I shove wood blocks under the nose and tail to create the amount of rocker I need. It's like one big vacuum pod. To do the bottom, I screw down the nose part of the rocker table to the Shopbot table and put a few wood blocks under the middle, a small block under the tail, and attach the tail part of the rocker table to the Shopbot table. In the future, I may build something a little bit more sophisticated, but for now this works fine.

[daniel]

All right, thanks for the info Ken.
I'm working on building the vacuum hold down now. I have found some vacuum cups that I think will do the Job, here is the link to them,
http://www.anver.com/document/vacuum%20components/vacuum%20cups/cups-vc576575.htm
Thanks guys!

Now my questions to anyone or everyone is, (1) Theses are 60 bucks a piece and I need four, Do you think there is a cheaper alternative? and
(2) Do you think these could be powered by a Fien or a ShopVac?

[Towersonline]

Way to much money for those.

Do a search for vacuum table on e-bay there is a listing there for a system with 4 pucks for 25.00. This guy makes them for resale.

[kenz]

"(2) Do you think these could be powered by a Fien or a ShopVac?"

Neither. They won't work. You will need a vacuum pump like the AutoVac Pump on this page:
http://www.acp-composites.com/acp-vbs.htm

or build your own like on this page:
http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/EVS/concept.htm

Those vacuum cups look good, but if you want to save money you should make your own. All you need is a block of wood, some gasket material and a way to connect the vacuum hose. Search for "vacuum pod" or "vacuum puck" in the forum and you'll find a lot of info.

[daniel]

Thanks Ken, I decided to go that route, I already ordered some gasket from Allstar adhesives, and I'm going to build the pucks like Bill Palumbo had at one of the camps. Thamks for your advice!

[kirkshapes]

to anyone,
what ShopBot machine are you using to do surfboards? looks like the PRTalpha120 should do just fine?
what should one expect to pay to get completely set up for surfboards?

thanks in advance.

[daniel]

Hey Kirk, I've been working on this part time for a friend of mine who owns a surfshop and sells alot of boards. Right now he buys most of his boards already preshaped from someone who owns a machine( brand name, KKL) I've seen the machine, it is quite impressive. I believe that particular machine is over a hundred grand. However, I believe to get a great setup that includes the machine, the software, and the holddown hardware can be built for about $30,000. I know it sounds like alot, but in my estimation thats what it takes to build a machine that will pump out boards at a production level.