Shopbot versus the big routers

[John Hershberger (Unregistered Guest)]

Can anyone fill me in a bit on the difference in performance between the shopbot and say a Thermwood? I know that a local shop running a Thermwood is not able to meet their customer's needs, they're always running late. I was wondering if this would be an opportunity with a shopbot. This would involve cutting mostly solid wood. Would the shopbot produce similar quality at a slower pace on at least the smaller or lighter duty parts? Would the customers be able to tell that it came off of a lower investment machine? The other option might be to buy a used industrial router, but they don't come with shopbot support and that of this forum. What do you think?

Thanks,
JH

[krfitz]

John,

Sounds like opportunity is knocking...

I have never seen a Thermwood or its output, but I have been using a ShopBot for nearly 3 years, and I can tell you that it is a superb machine that is backed by superb people (both SB employees and the people on this forum).

The machine is not the limiting factor in the quality of the parts produced. The only limit is in the skill and knowledge of the operator. You will have a learning curve, but it will not be that bad if you are halfway intelligent, start with factory training and hang out on this forum.

Best of success to you.

Regards,
Kevin

[phil_o]

The first time I saw a CNC in action I was in awe watching it move. It was a Thermwood. I had not seen a Shopbot before. I teach high school woodworking and we now own a Shopbot. My students have made all kinds of things on the machine. I am sure that you will be able to do whatever you need to with a Shopbot. There won't be any compromise in the quality of the final product.

[paco]

John,

say you compare a SB tool (around 10 000$) to another one "high end" tool (say 50 000$; and that still low!); this late tool won't be 5 time faster... neither cutting 5 time "better"... neither you'll be 5 time happier!... neither you'll get 5 time more support!!...

As Kevin pointed out; the operator/programmer play a GREAT role as to get "satisfaction" out of a tool... whatever it is...

[geneM (Unregistered Guest)]

Paco is 100% correct
but to add a thought...
if you can afford an expensive machine...you can afford multiple shopbots(and accessories, holdowns, dustcollection, router bits, lunch for the crew, etc.)

[paco]

Right Gene!

From my personnal experiences (previous employement) with some high end CNC tool (water jet, plasma, oxyfuel, laser...), software versatility/flexibility and technical support have been VERY disapointing... I, personnaly, would resume as; the more you pay, the less you seem to get!!... Still, I hope I'm wrong somehow...

If some day I pay, say, 100 000.00$ for a CNC tool, I hope it will came with some maintenance robot such as R2-D2!!!

[fleinbach]

Paco
But 3CPO can do so much more

[Brady Watson]

The Thermwood and Alpha are very close as far as cutting speed is concerned. The Thermwood does benefit from a sturdier chassis and platform...but at a MUCH higher cost. The Alpha is really a spectacular tool for the money.

The benefit of owning a Shopbot over a Thermwood, let's say, is the fact that you can save a bundle and still have a competitive machine. Additionally you can take some of that money that you saved by purchasing the Alpha, and customize the machine to your liking. If you want it to be stiffer, then build a beefier table, etc...or buy additional equipment such as a vacuum table, dual spindles or other accessories that would have previously been out of your grasp financialy if you went with a higher cost machine.

What the Alpha does is open up doors for companies that previously couldn't cut fast enough on a PRT...OR afford a Thermwood. Granted, the Thermwood uses much larger spindles, but you could adapt larger spindles to the Bot if you really had the need. In many cases, as was the case with my machine, you can purchase the entire shopbot outright and not have to deal with the hassles or stresses of paying for a CNC every month.

-Brady

[davidp]

I Purchased an alpha Last october and at the same time a friend purchased an entry level MultiCam, a very nice machine. He had experieince with CNC where as I had had none. His costs to date have been around AUD$145,000 my all up cost has been approximately AUD$45,000. These costs include elctrical connection, dust extraction, vacuum hold downs tooling etc. He has a 5hp spindle I have a 3hp columbo but I also have a 2nd z axis, we have identical vacuum holdowns, our dust extractionis much better. I have ArtCam pro he has some dinky 2D software. At the end of the day I am $100,000 better off and we are accomplishing similar projects in similar times.

I have the advantage of this forum which along with the $100,000 means I have a lot less worries.

[geneM (Unregistered Guest)]

About 6 yrs ago we got our PR.
3 1/2 yrs ago we were running it 24/7.
I was getting up in the middle of the night to start projects, needing not to waiste the hours of cutting.

We bought the PRT upgrade, and two shopbots each controlling two routers simultaniously( sharing 1 table)

Our costs are still under 50K.

Our customer base grows monthly.

Not once has a single customer asked if I dropped a bundle on tools, they come in the shop and they know I did( he he).

Most every customer has the same reaction. They come in the shop, see dozens of expertly carved samples and immediately assume We can handle any job they might need.

There was a sign shop in town, When We opened I paid him a visit. He asked about the CNC we used and when I told him a shopbot he literally sat down on his desk and mumbled something about "the beggining of the end"
He told me that just the tool changer cost 25k.

He has since closed up or moved away.( no postcard or nothing)

The most expensive wood part I have ever cut was a peice of walnut 4" thick 12" wide andabou 84" long. probobly retail about $800 or so.
Cut perfectly, little sanding, happy customer.

I don't remember the walnut saying "shouldn't you be using a router costing 3-4 times as much.

Whoa! the sarcasm meter just blew a fuse

gotta go make dust!
gene
www.marshallsmillwork.com (http://www.marshallsmillwork.com)

[John Hershberger (Unregistered Guest)]

Thanks Guys,

I sense a great amount of satisfaction with, and loyalty to Shopbot. I appreciate as much as anyone not having a large fixed monthly payment to be met. My skepticism may be the result of having chosen the lower dollar alternative in the past and later feeling like kicking myself for it. That's some impressive work you have displayed on your website Gene! I wasn't really thinking 3D when I asked about the Shopbot. The area I saw immediate possibilities for was in 2D profiles, some holes, and pockets. Would any of you take a job to cut out things like an oval coffee table top of 1" thick cherry? What if you needed to repeat this 40 or 50 times for one order? Would they be ready to have the edge profile cut against a shaper bearing, or would they require sanding first. This is just one example, much of the opportunity I see is in the furniture/millwork area. Another one that comes to mind is cutting a 26" radius arc in a piece of 2" solid ash. How many passes would something like this take, or is it even practically possible? Should some things first be cut out on the bandsaw and finished on the router? I hope you don't mind me being full of questions. I sure like seeing what some of you are making on your Shopbots, keep it up!

John

[geneM (Unregistered Guest)]

John,
Many guys buy a shopbot and wonder what to cut with it.
Your way ahead, you got a project lined up.
you will be amazed at all of the stuff this tool is capable of.
combine one with a quality design program, and you will start looking at every job that comes in and think how much can I do on the shopbot , and how much do I have to do by hand.

So your gonna do the same work as us(GRRRR).
We cut arches constantly.
there was a post a couple weeks ago about arched moldings( no specialty knives, all with 1/8 bit, no kidding any profile)
Really, one of our biggest sellers.
Your coffee table, Cake!
We won't be needing the shaper for that...the CNC will put any fancy edge you want all the way around that table cleaner than the shaper will.
and the inside corners will be square not round like the bit.
Would you like some carved legs for that?
I'll make ya 50 tables and 400 legs in your custom design, any wood, and turn them out as quick as you need.

You'll sound like this in a year or so.

the Bot won't undercut, so don't sell the shaper yet, but wou may wan't to cover it, before it gets a thick layer of dust.

there goes that fuse again

gene

[geneM (Unregistered Guest)]

MY sarcasm must have ended this thread

[bleeth]

Gene: I just spent 8 days installing a kitchen while listening to two of the whiniest brats, crying puppy, barking dog, and screaming housewife, followed by the "friend of the family" client who had three electronic techs installing the plasma/surround sound system at the same time as I was installing my furniture dancing around each other adding 1 1/2 days to the job and if you want to here some sarcasm call me. Your comments are lightweight!!
PS: Have business-will trade for RV

Dave

[GeneM (Unregistered Guest)]

Dave,
OUCH!
Been there, done that,
we should have a beer and trade some stories

Gene

[bleeth]

A beer sounded so good I had a Fullers ESB with lunch today! If you don't know it ask Mike John. It goes well with sausage roll, mashed, and mushy peas.
Your reservations are in.

Dave