Machining Ipe

[Brady Watson]

I got a call from a customer today that wants 875 LF of 5/4 Ipe decking slotted on both sides of the board (5/4 part...1/8" kerf, @.5 deep) I think that they want to eliminate using a biscuit joiner...

From what I have read, Ipe is very tough on tooling. I am trying to figure out the most efficient way of doing the job, and at what price. I have at my shop a cabinet table saw, router table and of course the Bot with 5HP Colombo. The planks are from 10' to 16' in length. So far, the table saw seems like the best candidate...BUT I would need to A) find a cheap source of blades (especially since I don't know how many I'd run through and B) need something with an 1/8" kerf to do a single pass...Or run everything through the saw twice to get that extra 1/32 that the typical 3/32 blade would miss. Any ideas on how many teeth I should shoot for?

If you were to take on a job like this, What would you charge? How much would you alot for blades or bits? What method would produce the best results most efficiently?

Any and all help from someone who has cut this stuff is greatly appreciated! I have to give an estimate tomorrow.

Thanks!
-Brady

[lto]

A shaper with feeder would be nice, there you could run an 1/8" saw blade in the horizontal position producing a very accurate groove. If you biuld a substantial fence I suppose you could do the same thing in the verticle plane on the table saw, providing the feeder can be positioned on its side. If you check a bit I'm sure an 1/8" blade can be found, 16 to 20 tooth carbide ATB wouuld be my choice. And I would'nt worry about it dulling as long as its fed at the proper rate without burning. If I needed to do this I'd probably put blades on the side heads of the moulder and get an accurate job on both sides in one pass. AS far as how much to charge,just think of how much faster the install is going to go!

[beacon14]

Brady,

My gut instinct is to concentrate on the table saw. If you don't already own one, include in your bid the cost of a good stock feeder - it will pay for itself in improved productivity and accuracy, and help ensure your safety during what will be a tedious job.

You should be able to get a rip blade for the tablesaw with a 1/8" kerf, if not you can probably have one made. Call Forrest Mfg in Clifton, NJ and ask them about it, and ask them about blade life in Ipe. For fast ripping, fewer teeth are usually better, probably 30 teeth or at most 40 on a 10" blade. I would be surprised if you need more than 1 or 2 good blades for 875lf times 2 kerfs - you are only cutting 1/2" deep. If you can hook up a mister to keep the blade lubricated during the cutting, you will be even better off. Good dust collection is also highly advisable, both for blade and motor life and your own health.

There is an article in the November (current) issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine comparing mitersaw blades. In a nutshell, they found relatively little difference in initial cut quality between a $30 blade and a $130 blade, but the overall manufacturing quality of the $130 blade (flatter plate, better carbide, etc.) will allow that blade to perform better and outlast its competition. You wouldn't buy economy bits for the Shopbot when longevity and productivity are paramount, and the same holds true for the tablesaw.

Make sure your saw and rip fence are tuned properly and the motor has adequate horsepower for the job (3HP minimum), and make sure the ventilation air for the motor is not restricted, or you risk burning up the motor. I don't have personal experience with Ipe, but I have run other tropical hardwoods, and I don't think it will be as difficult as you fear. I think the part of this job most likely to be underbid is the time to unload, handle, stack, and re-load all the material. Once you have the material stacked at the saw, using Delta's 1/4HP stock feeder as an example, at it's 2nd slowest feed speed of 26 feet per minute, it will take 875/26 or 34 minutes to run each edge. Your actual machining time would be just over 1 hour for both edges, but the total time including handling the material and setting up the stock feeder will be much longer. Even at the feeder's slowest speed, the machining time would be only a little more than 2 hours.

Hope this helps,
David B.

[elcruisr]

Brady, I ran a bunch of Ipe on a boat job several years ago. While it does wear tools a little faster it's not as bad as teak. The guys above are right, you can get a good ripsaw balde with the right kerf and if it's got good carbide it will last the job. While a stock feeder is nice that's a job I'd handle easily by hand. Having said that we are used to jobs like this in our shop. I'd factor in the cost of the blade and for myself and a helper (I feed, he pulls off and restacks) the time you think it will take you to feed them. It really isn't hard to push, about like running modern day mahogany.

Eric

[gerald_d]

My grandfather had a set of tapered support washers for his saw blade. By twisting the washers so that the tapers mismatched, the saw-blade would wobble and cut a wider groove. Maybe a a bit of shim (paper?) would be enough to make your blade wobble by 1/32".......

[edp]

Remember that the dust generated by ipe is toxic and good dust collection and proper respirators are a must - due to its toxicity, most shops here in Barbados will not touch it - Greenheart is used instead.

[gerald_d]

Welcome to the new guy from Barbados!

[srwtlc]

If you use a table saw and these boards aren't totally flat, you'll need to keep them tightly pressed against your fence without deflecting the fence, or the slot will not be consistent (the distance from face to slot). This would cause the boards to be misaligned when put together.

How about using a hand held router with a 1/8" slotting cutter. The router base would follow the contour of the board making the slot consistent.

[Brady Watson]

Thanks for all the input, guys!

I just gave them a quote of $900. We'll see if they take it. The problem is that there is a 4 week lead time on pre-grooved boards & their cutomer needs it next week.

I think that the table saw is probably the best option. I have a good saw & fence setup, and will make another tall fence to create a channel out of HDPE. Generally speaking, the Ipe that I have seen is pretty true & straight. There just needs to be a groove for the plastic fasteners which will compensate if it is off 1/32 or so between each other.

Yes, I know it is toxic...which is one reason I jacked up the price.

Thanks again!
-Brady

[jay_p]

Brady,
There are a lot of .126" blades available. 1/32" is by no means a standard blade. If you look at what only Freud has to offer, the range is from .090 to.153 for 10" blades. We run only .126" blades in our shop because the Biesemeyer splitter that we have won't allow thinner blades. We also have our blade resharpened repeatedly with good success.
Those guys in the lumber yard seem to enjoy scaring people by telling them that certain woods are too hard to cut. Maybe it is because the saws and blades that they use in most lumber yards are so funky. We have never really had any trouble machining any wood that comes through our door.

Jay

[bleeth]

Brady:
Hefting near 900 feet of IPE (Heavy stuff) through your table saw will take a lot more effort than swinging your 1 1/2 hp router as Scott suggests as well as giving a more consistant slot height. The sole advantage of running it through your saw is the vac setup.
I once had the dubious pleasure of building a huge stack of oversize pallettes out of that stuff for a fishing processor and it did wonders helping me sleep those nights.

Dave

[Brady Watson]

Do you think my 1.5HP Porter Cable hand router is up to the task? I'd like a 3.25 PC for my router table...or another Colombo


Eb-Ty suggests using a #2 slot cutter (about $15+ ea...plus I'll need the arbor set). I am not sure if the #1 cutter is the same kerf or not, I know it is a smaller overall diameter. If so, the smaller cutter might do the trick if I can get .5 deep on it.

You are right...plopping them onto some saw horses and dragging a router down the plank sounds much more appealing than wrestling them on the table saw.

-Brady

[srwtlc]

Brady,

Check out ,CMT. They have a 1/8" three wing slot cutter (http://www.cmtusa.com/store/index1.ihtml?x_page=store.ihtml&id=CID8095036543&s tep=2&parentid=CID5553152431&pagetitle=&menuinclud e=leftnav_products.ihtml&titleimage=titles_routerb its.jpg) and a 1/2" arbor (http://www.cmtusa.com/store/index1.ihtml?x_page=store.ihtml&id=CID6331373644&s tep=2&parentid=&menuinclude=leftnav_products.ihtml ) w/bearing that will cut 1/2" deep. You'll have to find a dealer near you with their dealer locator. I can get them from HDL (Hardware Distributors LTD), $13.69 for the 1/8" slot cutter and $5.54 for the arbor w/bearing. If your 1-1/2 hp PC is in good shape it should do okay or maybe this would be a good time to get one of the new 2-1/4 hp ones with a D-handle

[Brady Watson]

Thanks for the 'bit' of info, Scott
That's a great price.

-Brady

[srwtlc]

You're welcome! If you cant get hold of some easily, let me know.

Scott

[bleeth]

Brady,
A good bit and your 1 1/2 will do fine unless your looking for an excuse to buy a new toy....er..I mean tool. I like that one for hand work cause its easy to swing. I made a series of 10 inch square by 1/2 inch base plates for it years ago and they are large enough that often I run it single handed and steady my workpiece with the other so I don't have to clamp it down. Quick work for things like roundovers and slotting.

Dave

PS: If they go for $1/ft for slotting, tell them you know a guy with a few waterfront lots in Florida for sale!!

[oddcoach]

WHY NOT USE THE BOT. THERE ARE KEYWAY CUTTER USED IN METAL WORKING. THEY HAVE 1/2 IN SHANK AND A SMALL SAWBLADE AT THE END OF THE SHANK. MCMASTER AND MSC BOTH STOCK THEM

[fleinbach]

Brady,

I would be very surprised if you land this job. I am a contractor in Maryland and would find it very hard to add that much extra to a deck job. We handle these type materials all the time and I estimate we could complete the slotting in about 4 hours with two guys. We're used to handling heavy construction materials. We would run them through our table saw which has a 1/8" wide Delta 40 tooth blade. We have a shop but we would do the job right at the site to minimize handling material. We would set the table saw in front of the pile and run them through one way. Then just turn the saw around and run the other side. Total price added to the customer’s bill would be $300.00 and I would make 50% profit at that.

Of course I realize small shops are not typically set up to handle this type of work efficiently. It's tough lugging all that heavy material in, then back out by hand. Larger shops with forklifts have an advantage. They can move the whole stack in front of the table saw and two guys can run it through in under 2 hours easily.